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The Religion and Philosophy Thread

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  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    edited April 2019
    Artona wrote: »
    @gorgonzola
    in my opinion atheism is a religion, as it implies an act of faith, an arbitrary decision on how is something that at now we have no scientific ways to prove true or false.

    Many atheists here seem to think that there is not enough evidence to assume existence of any God, so I wouldn't call that attitude "act of faith", or "arbitraty decision".
    and i and, i suppose, also many religious people agree about the lack of a strong enough evidence to prove the existence of any god.
    most of the religious people are religious for an act of faith, in a prophet, a holy book that they regard as a revelation from god or maybe just in an inner feeling that make them believe that something super natural, a superior power, exist.
    anyway i am referring to the etymology of the word atheist, a means not theos means god, so for me an atheist is a person that is convinced, believes, that there is no god. so use this definition of atheist for the sake of understanding what i tell other way we are just disagreeing on the meaning of words, not on the logic of our reasoning. for me to don't believe that there is a god is not enough to be atheist, there must be a positive belief that there is no god.

    but i was clear in my previous post when i was talking about the difference between being a scientist and being a priest of the church of science.
    the lack of an evidence that something exist is never an evidence that the thing does not exist, if someone would have negate the existence of bacteria only cause there was no evidence, microscopes were still not invented, he would not be logic, would have been outside the scientific method. the existence (or not existence) of bacteria or of a god is not related to the lack of evidence and is also not related in any way to the knowledge we have unless a clear evidence of his existence is included in the knowledge that we have.
    (this maybe is not true, but we must assume that it is true other way we are going into a territory that needs books, not forum posts, to be discussed, both from a scientific and a philosophic point of view).
    i call act of faith and arbitrary decision to assume that there is no god only for the lack of evidence of his existence, if there is no evidence of its not existence. and seems that no incontrovertible evidence of both has been proved.
    Artona wrote: »
    Regardless of that, religion is something more than act of faith. I believe that sun will rise tomorrow morning.....................
    Atheism contains statement about one thing - existence of god, and religion tends to cover and entail much more.
    about the hypothesis that the sun will rise tomorrow i would say that is enough inside the scientific method, an hypothesis has to be confirmed trough experimentation and repeatability, we have about 5k * 365 iterations of the experiment. but is only a bad chosen example, i understand what you mean, let's not focus on it.
    i am not sure that religion tends to cover and entail much more then the statement of the existence of a superior power, many religions do it, but they can do it in different and sometimes opposite ways. and for some people being religious is just to look at the immensity of a starry sky and feel inside that there must be something more, something behind, without believing that any institutionalized or revealed religion is true, they are religious cause they believe in the existence of a god without any superstructure.

    so i stand on my position, an atheist (someone that is convinced that there is no god) and a religious person (someone that is convinced that there is a god, or maybe many gods) are both basing their belief on other then a scientific evidence, as both the positions can not be proved. i call it act of faith.
    an agnostic (a=not gnosis=knowledge) suspend his judgment until there is an evidence of one of the 2 hypothesis being true. what has been called some posts above negative atheism for me is a form of agnosticism.

    chimaera wrote: »
    Is a kid who believes in the tooth fairy a pagan?
    if the tooth is what i mean (i am not a native english speaker) he is more a scientist. a very simple and naive one, but a scientist.
    he has proved that his parents have a superior knowledge and tell him the truth and has proved trough experimentation and repeteability that putting the tooth under the pillow a mouse in the night take it and puts a coin, or some sweet, in its place. or whatever happens in the english tradition.

    his hypothesis will be proven false when he will grow up, the parents don't know all , don't tell always the truth and there is no mouse or whatever that comes in the night. but also newton theory was proved false by einstein, there is no shame in it, after all he is only a kid.




    mlnevese
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @gorgonzola How do you define god? BTW, what you (claim to) know is different to what you believe. Agnosticism is therefore irrelevant when discussing belief in god.
    JLee
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    @FinneousPJ i don't define god, as about all the people that claim to have a revelation of him/her/it tell clearly that is something well beyond our possibility of comprehension and description. you should ask to buddha, paramhansa yogananda or saint francis of assisi a definition of god, maybe they are more entitled then me to give it. gautama buddha, according to the pali canon, did not tell a single word about the existence or nature of god... sometimes they give simplified definitions of god that take in consideration the cultural background and traditions of the people they are talking with.
    obviously is possible that all those enlighten people are only fools and their revelations are nothing but tricks of their own minds...
    and surely some of them are only cheaters, imho the 3 i named was not so.

    my personal position is that to believe in god existence or believe in god not existence, behind what each person can consider as god, can be useful if makes someone happier but has nothing to do with knowing something about god. i am convinced that if there is something beyond it can be only known by direct experience, that can only happen if that something beyond wants to reveal itself, you can call it grace, even if sometimes dedication, focusing and spiritual practices like yoga (i don't mean the gym that in the western countries is so often regarded as yoga and is only one of the preparatory steps to yoga, pointless if the person has not done the steps that come before, yama and niyama, and is not willing the whole path until he reaches samadhi) can help it happen.

    i agree with you about agnosticism being irrelevant when discussing belief in god, but i also think that discussing about or having belief in god is completely irrelevant when someone wants to attain knowledge, not to have believes about something he does not really know.



  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @gorgonzola So do you believe god exists?
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    is it so important?
    i don't believe in anything that i can not know, and personally i find believing or not believing in something irrelevant, so i don't believe that god exist, i don't believe that a physical universe exist, my body and brain included, i only know that i am and as i am some perceptions happen in the conscience.
    i will tell you more in pm, my not believing is not something i am willing to talk about in public forums.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    edited April 2019
    If you want 'proof' of anything all you can base it on is your own experience or you're accepting something on 'faith'. Therefore climate change doesn't exist, the border problem doesn't exist, God doesn't exist, anything that happened before you were born doesn't exist, anybody else's insights or experiences don't exist, basically anything you yourself don't prove on your own doesn't exist. You can't accept any scientific theory if you don't prove it yourself so you'd better be an expert on virtually everything using only your own personal investigations!
    gorgonzolamlneveseSkatan
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    @Balrog99 i agree with what you tell, even if i have no proof at all that you exist.
    Balrog99
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    edited April 2019
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    @Balrog99 i agree with what you tell, even if i have no proof at all that you exist.

    Well, I can at least tell you that I am unaware of any AI that can mimic me as yet. Not too far in the future I'm afraid, I won't be able to make that claim. C'est la vie...
    mlnevesegorgonzolaJLee
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    Arvia wrote: »
    Wow, I just discovered this thread (still new to the forum) and I'm impressed how intensely (but also respectful) this subject is discussed in a gaming forum.
    Then again, to many people, escaping into a fantasy game world where good fights evil with simplified rules is not so different from following one of the traditional religions.
    I'm curious if I will have to defend myself, but I identify as a Christian, and I believe in God. Believing is not the same as knowing, so I don't have to prove that God exist. I choose to believe it. It's faith, not science.
    That said, I have a solid education and a sceptical, analytical, critical mind. But I also have a sensitive, compassionate and vulnerable heart, which creates a constant internal conflict (no, I'm not hearing voices).
    My mind is very well aware of science, evolution and lots of complicated laws of nature that explain a lot of things formerly attributed to religion, and I was educated to question EVERYTHING. But that also makes me question if I'm really able to understand the reality of our existence and therefore prove that there is no God.
    Philosophically I can agree the most with Zen I think, but emotionally I just can't bear the thought that there is only emptiness.
    Life is tough enough as it is. I see a lot of death and suffering in my job, and I struggle with issues in every day life like most of us. I WANT to believe that there is some benevolent entity, some greater purpose, some force of goodness keeping the universe together.
    Faith is, like love, a conscious choice that requires hard work and regular maintenance, and my faith fluctuates a lot, and if I talk to really religious people I feel like a fake. But I don't want to give it up. Sure, the message of the Gospel is nice, but if someone proved it wrong, I would still live by the same rules and try to be a good person, because doing good to get rewarded or avoid a bad afterlife is not what I consider good, and I don't agree with most church dogma anyway.
    And I'm not a fool who ignores facts because they disagree with desired results. If there was solid proof against the existence of God, I would accept it. I would not take the pill to get back into the matrix.

    But although it might be cowardice or lack of emotional maturity, my informed choice is to believe, because I would feel a lot more depressed and lonely otherwise, and not have as much strength and courage to do what is requires of me every day.
    Maybe others would compare it to taking a drug, but even if I'm wrong, I have lost nothing, because I'm not a fanatic and therefore feel no side effects, like sudden urges to burn witches or throw rocks at the married female couple living next door.
    Discussions and angry replies are welcome, but please no attempts to convert me. I promise the same ?

    Sounds like we're sort of alike. I'm not sure I really identify as Christian anymore but I do believe in a higher power and I have to believe there is some sort of purpose to existence. To believe otherwise is rather depressing...
    mlneveseArvia
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    That's the most common reason to believe in gods. To give sense and a purpose to existence . We fight against the fact things may exist and happen for no reason other than pure randomness. The fear of just cease existing after death is also understandable.
    Balrog99TakisMegasBelgarathMTH
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    mlnevese wrote: »
    That's the most common reason to believe in gods. To give sense and a purpose to existence . We fight against the fact things may exist and happen for no reason other than pure randomness. The fear of just cease existing after death is also understandable.

    I'm not really afraid of randomness, but death does seem rather... final.
    mlneveseTakisMegas
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    JLee wrote: »
    It is always so interesting to hear how differently we all interpret reality! Here's my unrequested testimony :smiley:

    I find tremendous freedom and joy in emptiness, being alert and flowing with the moment, being receptive to reality. Conversely, I find hope and belief ultimately frustrating and disappointing. If you can accept life the way it is, warts and all, then what purpose does belief serve? If you can't accept life as it is, then isn't belief just a way of hiding that nonacceptance from yourself?

    The way I have come to view being religious is the participation with and exploration of existence. It is something to experience, not something to study. It is something to dissolve into. The impediments to that dissolving inform my spiritual practice, i.e. meditation and a conscious letting go.

    What is afraid to die? It all depends on your identifications. If you identify as your ego process or body, then death will be very scary, but if you identify with existence itself, then what dies? Many beings have carried the atoms in my body before I came into being and many more will carry them when I am gone. It is all one never ending unfolding. I am not different than the universe, just a wave that takes shape for a time and then returns to the sea.

    I read someone (I forget who) phrase it, who can carry their piece of earth with grace and lay it down again with grace?

    If it turns out there is a god involved with all of that, then I'll accept that too, otherwise nbd! Maybe that means I'm an apatheist after all :lol:

    Atoms don't have hopes, beliefs or any consciousness whatsoever. Consciousness doesn't require atoms so why does it exist? Atoms have a purpose, consciousness doesn't. Or does it?
    mlneveseJLeeTakisMegas
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    i just dropped into the thread to read the last posts and now that i have done it i feel so happy, almost overwhelmed by joy, seeing how some beautiful people share their personal, precious and unique point of view. i want to thank you all so much for the incredible present i received this evening.
    Balrog99JLeeTakisMegasmlnevese
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 2,101
    edited April 2019
    @JLee I respect your perspective, but since the beginning of conscious life, since the first humanoids began to be different from animals, they have searched for something beyond our material existence.
    Maybe there is something out there. Or rather, in here, inside of us.

    Maybe the emptiness of Zen would have held more appeal to me if I had had more discipline when I discovered it, but I was only interested in the theory. I have absolutely no patience for meditation. Brain just won't shut up.

    By the way, Terry Pratchett "Small gods" anyone? I love the atheists running around with copper wire constructions on their heads because the gods, who hate atheists of course, will occasionally strike them with lightening to prove a point ?

    Anyway, my attitude towards all these things has changed greatly over the 36 years of my life and will continue to do so until I die, I suppose. But having children certainly had the greatest impact on the changes of how I view or want to view the world, what my fears and struggles are and how I am prepared to face them (or not).
    I look forward to the future, I'm not afraid to challenge what I believe, I'm just not prepared to throw it all over board without very good reason.

    Post edited by Arvia on
    JLeemlnevese
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Arvia wrote: »
    Wow, I just discovered this thread (still new to the forum) and I'm impressed how intensely (but also respectful) this subject is discussed in a gaming forum.
    Then again, to many people, escaping into a fantasy game world where good fights evil with simplified rules is not so different from following one of the traditional religions.
    I'm curious if I will have to defend myself, but I identify as a Christian, and I believe in God. Believing is not the same as knowing, so I don't have to prove that God exist. I choose to believe it. It's faith, not science.

    @Arvia Why would you take anything on faith? Faith is not a way of ascertaining truth or understanding about reality.
    Arvia wrote: »
    That said, I have a solid education and a sceptical, analytical, critical mind. But I also have a sensitive, compassionate and vulnerable heart, which creates a constant internal conflict (no, I'm not hearing voices).
    My mind is very well aware of science, evolution and lots of complicated laws of nature that explain a lot of things formerly attributed to religion, and I was educated to question EVERYTHING. But that also makes me question if I'm really able to understand the reality of our existence and therefore prove that there is no God.

    That's not how logic works. Do you also believe in unicorns and the flying spaghetti monster given they cannot be proven to not exist?
    Arvia wrote: »
    Philosophically I can agree the most with Zen I think, but emotionally I just can't bear the thought that there is only emptiness.
    Life is tough enough as it is. I see a lot of death and suffering in my job, and I struggle with issues in every day life like most of us. I WANT to believe that there is some benevolent entity, some greater purpose, some force of goodness keeping the universe together.
    Faith is, like love, a conscious choice that requires hard work and regular maintenance, and my faith fluctuates a lot, and if I talk to really religious people I feel like a fake. But I don't want to give it up. Sure, the message of the Gospel is nice, but if someone proved it wrong, I would still live by the same rules and try to be a good person, because doing good to get rewarded or avoid a bad afterlife is not what I consider good, and I don't agree with most church dogma anyway.
    And I'm not a fool who ignores facts because they disagree with desired results. If there was solid proof against the existence of God, I would accept it. I would not take the pill to get back into the matrix.

    Is it better to learn to cope with reality or to entertain a comfortable fantasy? I would propose the former.
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    JLee wrote: »
    It is always so interesting to hear how differently we all interpret reality! Here's my unrequested testimony :smiley:

    I find tremendous freedom and joy in emptiness, being alert and flowing with the moment, being receptive to reality. Conversely, I find hope and belief ultimately frustrating and disappointing. If you can accept life the way it is, warts and all, then what purpose does belief serve? If you can't accept life as it is, then isn't belief just a way of hiding that nonacceptance from yourself?

    The way I have come to view being religious is the participation with and exploration of existence. It is something to experience, not something to study. It is something to dissolve into. The impediments to that dissolving inform my spiritual practice, i.e. meditation and a conscious letting go.

    What is afraid to die? It all depends on your identifications. If you identify as your ego process or body, then death will be very scary, but if you identify with existence itself, then what dies? Many beings have carried the atoms in my body before I came into being and many more will carry them when I am gone. It is all one never ending unfolding. I am not different than the universe, just a wave that takes shape for a time and then returns to the sea.

    I read someone (I forget who) phrase it, who can carry their piece of earth with grace and lay it down again with grace?

    If it turns out there is a god involved with all of that, then I'll accept that too, otherwise nbd! Maybe that means I'm an apatheist after all :lol:

    Atoms don't have hopes, beliefs or any consciousness whatsoever. Consciousness doesn't require atoms so why does it exist? Atoms have a purpose, consciousness doesn't. Or does it?

    @Balrog99 How did you come to conclude "Consciousness doesn't require atoms"?
    BelgarathMTHgorgonzola
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 2,101
    @FinneousPJ I think you are deliberately missing my point. I never considered faith a way of ascertaining truth.
    And I said no conversion attempts please.
    Don't you think it funny that most people accuse religious people of being intolerant of different opinions? Why do I always find that some militant atheists (all you nice and respectful atheists out there, please don't feel addressed) are stubbornly trying to convince me, question my education, my intelligence, my logic?
    Is it so hard to believe that contradicting perspectives in a person are possible?
    What you are saying about unicorns is probably meant to show my logical faults, but your discussion style is bordering on insult. When my children asked me if fairies exist, I told them that I don't believe so, but just because I have never seen one, it doesn't mean they can't exist.
    But I think we are entering an infinite loop here.
    Let's meet again in 100 years, shall we? And talk about it then.
    BelgarathMTHgorgonzolaTakisMegas
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    edited April 2019
    Arvia wrote: »
    @FinneousPJ I think you are deliberately missing my point. I never considered faith a way of ascertaining truth.
    And I said no conversion attempts please.
    Don't you think it funny that most people accuse religious people of being intolerant of different opinions? Why do I always find that some militant atheists (all you nice and respectful atheists out there, please don't feel addressed) are stubbornly trying to convince me, question my education, my intelligence, my logic?
    Is it so hard to believe that contradicting perspectives in a person are possible?
    What you are saying about unicorns is probably meant to show my logical faults, but your discussion style is bordering on insult. When my children asked me if fairies exist, I told them that I don't believe so, but just because I have never seen one, it doesn't mean they can't exist.
    But I think we are entering an infinite loop here.
    Let's meet again in 100 years, shall we? And talk about it then.

    I'm not trying any "conversion", I'm trying to have a conversation. Why is it wrong to question your logic? Isn't it a good thing to learn if you're wrong. You did claim to be open minded ;) If your logic is solid, there should be no issue in examining it. So why do you believe a god exists when it cannot be proven to not exists, but you don't believe fairies exist for the same reason? That's logically inconsistent.

    EDIT: What do you think is bordering on an insult? It's not my intention.
    gorgonzolaTakisMegas
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 2,101
    @JLee don't worry I know you are just trying to explain. My attempts at meditation are more than a decade in the past. I just don't feel it could be my "thing".
    But thank you for sharing your ideas.
    mlneveseJLeegorgonzola
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Arvia wrote: »
    @FinneousPJ
    Well, first things first. I had explained very clearly that I am very well aware of the contradiction, but faith is not science, it doesn't claim to be a science, and therefore doesn't need to follow the same rules. It's illogical by default.
    If you could prove God existed, it wouldn't be faith, it would be a fact.

    Science isn't synonymous with logic. I'm not asking for a scientific explanation, but I am asking for a reasonable one. Faith is not a reasonable method of determining what is true. You believe Jesus is god on faith, and muslims and jews believe he is not god on faith. How do you know whose faith is true (if any)?
    Arvia wrote: »
    The comparison between Christian faith (or any other with millions of followers) , unicorns and the flying spaghetti monster does not really imply a respectful point of view, but sounds like a sarcastic approach to ridicule my opinion. Which, as I said, never claimed to be logical in the first place.
    If that was not your intent, I sincerely apologise. Nuances in text only conversations are complicated and English is a foreign language to me.

    Why is the number of followers of your faith at all relevant? I'm sincerely asking what is the difference here, I cannot see it. If it's more comfortable, can you explain why you have faith in Christianity instead of Islam? How did you determine one is correct and the other is not?
    Arvia wrote: »
    And anyway, where I went to school I learned that some (many) hypotheses couldn't be proven right, ever. You could try to prove them wrong, repeatedly, and if you can't, you can use them until they are proven wrong or until you find a better explanation. Good enough for me.

    You were taught wrong. That is nonsensical. Here's a hypothesis: your toaster works by igniting magic undetectable fairies. Every time you make toast, you kill millions. You can't prove it wrong; do you believe it's true?
    KamigoroshiArtona
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    edited April 2019
    FinneousPJ wrote: »
    your toaster works by igniting magic undetectable fairies. Every time you make toast, you kill millions.
    Doesn't just anyone love the smell of burnt fairies in the morning? :yum:
    FinneousPJArviagorgonzolaTakisMegas
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    You think this is war? Ha, clearly you've never had a discussion with me before :p But if you don't want a discussion, that's fine.
    Arvia
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 2,101
    @FinneousPJ I prefer discussions about subjects that can come to a conclusion. I was more sharing a point of view than trying to win a debate. But I look forward to many discussions in the future. About other subjects. ?
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Whether or not a belief is reasonable can come to a conclusion though.
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