Maybe the emptiness of Zen would have held more appeal to me if I had had more discipline when I discovered it, but I was only interested in the theory. I have absolutely no patience for meditation. Brain just won't shut up.
Brain just won't shut up...
why to hurry things, it will, when its time will come. and will be swallowed by mother earth and feed her so new life can be produced. the life span of a brain is so short compared to the one of a star or an universe. let the brain do what it is programmed to do.
@JLee is so right about it, if possible i would give 108 insightful to his post instead of the only one i can.
@Arvia Noisy mind makes meditation challenging for sure! I would suggest that meditation is just the thing for a noisy mind, though. If you've spent any time at all with it, then I'm sure you're familiar, but focusing on the breath is the technique I use. Breath in, breathe out. Allow a deep relaxation to take over and just breathe. Whenever the mind wanders off, don't get frustrated, simply return to the breath. Pay attention to all the sensations as the breath enters. Observe how the body reacts both in the in breath and out breath.
If it's not happening, don't force it. One of the difficulties in mediation is that in the rest of life we are taught to try hard and achieve through effort.
we are so conditioned into doing things, but meditation is not about doing, is all about witnessing.
witnessing the breath, that is an utterly powerful technique, or witnessing the thoughts that flow on the screen of the mind, that brain that does not want to shut up. or maybe watching arvia working as a doctor, drinking a coffee, feeling happy and proud when she looks at her kid/kids...
every moment is good for meditate, for celebrate the miracle of the conscience, cause there is only that moment, here and now, yesterday is gone forever and tomorrow who knows...
@Arvia @FinneousPJ
you are both doing an outstanding work each one in the path that is the right one for you, don't be fooled by the fact that the paths seem so different, if each one is climbing and not diverging from his own route every path in the end will lead to the top of the mountain...
I find a few things very helpful to my practice of meditation.
One is "chitta vritti nirhoda", which means "chattering whirlpool mind be still". Sometimes, when I need to quiet my mind and lose awareness of time creeping by, to fight off tension, anxiety, and/or boredom, I begin to chant that phrase to myself over and over, while breathing deeply.
Another is counting time. I imagine the stopwatch from "60 Minutes". I hear the ticking. Four ticks equals one second. I visualize the second hand going around the dial as I count 60 seconds. Then, I begin the second minute, the third, and so on. Often, rather than keeping track of the minutes, I contemplate clock time at a factor of 60 times faster. That is, I visualize a clock with the minute hand moving as though it were the second hand, and the hour hand moving at one hour per counted minute. I visualize the clock as showing each hour of the day and night, at a rate of one hour per real time minute. As the "hour hand" moves the time of day or night, I contemplate what that time means to me.
1:00 am, sleeping or, in youth, partying. 2:00 am, more sleeping or partying, 3:00 am, sleeping, or the bar closes down, 4:00 am, sleeping cleanly, or passed out drunk, 5:00 am, often have to think about getting up for work for a day shift job, 6:00 am, usually have to get up by this hour to be ready for work by 8:00 am, 7:00 am, showering, shaving, eating breakfast, drinking coffee, 8:00 am, most of the world is at work, 9:00 am, more work, 10:00 am, 11:00 am, getting hungry, looking towards lunch, 12:00 pm, lunch break, relief from work tedium, 1:00 pm, reluctantly back to work, 2:00 pm, more work, getting tired and frustrated sometimes, 3:00 pm, near dismissal for teachers, 4:00 pm, school day is mercifully over, 5:00 pm, most of the world commuting home, rush hour traffic, 6:00 pm, thinking about supper, 7:00 pm, time for entertainment or games, 8:00 pm, more games, or prime time on tv, 9:00 pm, getting sleepy, wishing there was no work the next day, 10:00 pm, getting really sleepy, often avoiding going to bed because not wanting to have to drag myself out of bed the next day for more work, 11:00 pm, getting very sleepy, maybe watch the news and the beginning of the late show, 12:00 pm, more late show watching, getting extremely sleepy, maybe beginning to party in youth on a weekend, 1:00 am....
Cycles within cycles, circles within circles. Sometimes I contemplate what all the people are doing on different shifts and in different professions. What is life like at each of the hours of the day and night in a hospital? For police and guards? For first responders of all stripes? In a 24 hour factory?
The "counting time" technique also works very well for quieting ear worms and general "monkey mind" chaotic thought whirlpools that could be keeping me awake when I know I need to sleep. Used as an insomnia remedy, I've rarely gotten higher than 24 minutes before drifting off to sleep.
This video is a percussion arrangement of the mantra "chitti vritti nirodha". I think it's too busy in sound to be good for meditation, but I use it just as a mnemonic to remember the phrase.
nothing that is born will last forever, not a star, not a cell, and surely not me.
still i think that many people will feel something, not with the logic, but at an other level, i would tell with the hearth even if is not a correct statement, watching this little being with its moving flagellum live the last moment of its life and finally dissolve.
the logic tells us that life is only there cause an organic substrate and cease to be as the substrate dissolve. and at a logic level this is surely true.
but listening to that other, not logic, feeling is possible to hear something resonate inside us, and it resonates in the very same point where joy also resonate that is also the point where the people instinctively point the index finger at referring to themselves, that is not where the physical hearth is.
focusing on that point of the body while feeling "solidarity" for that little being can be the door to discover a precious treasure. feeling that little "i am" conscience fight to continue to be can teach a very well hidden secret, as the best way to hide something is right in front of the sight of everybody...
this is why some masters tell that there is nothing to reach, no perfection, no enlightenment, that when you find a buddha you have to slain that buddha.
you have proposed to us a wonderful form of meditation @FinneousPJ, that does not imply any act of faith, does not contradict the logic in any way, but can really open a different level of understanding.
much more then reading a thousand of books about spirituality.
@chimaera
(Referring to your post about minorities) @JLee @BelgarathMTH @FinneousPJ
and everybody else
again, I apologise. I was not implying that there is more truth in greater numbers or anything. My post was a very clumsy attempt to defend myself because I felt attacked after sharing some things that I don't usually talk about very much. I will stop trying to explain or justify, I'm embarrassed enough as it is. I'm also going to keep out of this conversation, I really didn't want to disturb this discussion and I am very sorry.
@Arvia before you leave this discussion let me tell you that i appreciated very much your contribution.
i perfectly understand how you feel now, to open some very private parts of ourselves and being/feeling to be attacked can be quite painful.
but they say that everything that don't kill us make us stronger... you are still alive and a little stronger, even if probably to leave the topic is the better thing for you.
this does not mean that i am siding on your side or i agree completely with what you have told, means only that i side on my own side, i have to follow the path that is good for me, but the more i progress in my path the more i can see the light in the path of other people, as long as there is no fanaticism and claim of superiority in it.
i see you and @FinneousPJ like the opposite parts of a tibetan mandala, each one is a statement of something incompatible with its opposite, and the truth behind both can only be understood transcending the mandala itself.
There's nothing to be embarrassed about, @Arvia. This is an inclusive community and your ideas are more than welcome here. Don't be afraid to discuss these issues; that's what the thread is for!
There's nothing to be embarrassed about, @Arvia. This is an inclusive community and your ideas are more than welcome here. Don't be afraid to discuss these issues; that's what the thread is for!
@Arvia it's only through the crucible of opposing views that you can truly strengthen your own. If nothing else, other people's viewpoints will increase your understanding of how other people think.
The believers do have a difficult position on a forum. Trapped by the limits of its own definition, faith cannot be understood through logic. There is no way to describe the ineffable, faith, love (almost anything that really matters tbh). The highest heights cannot possibly be transcribed (nor the lowest lows). Poetry is much better suited for this terrain. I do like to read poetry though and appreciate all who attempt it.
But I also like to see @FinneousPJ spring into action.
I agree with the point @gorgonzola was making earlier. (feebly simplifying) We are richer for prose and poetry. Either way you go, if you are earnest, you will get there. I happen to like the balance of both.
I guess that's why I really like this thread and hope everyone feels like they can post if they want to. I am grateful to all of you for posting your experiences and point of view here. We are all richer for it!
There's nothing to be embarrassed about, @Arvia. This is an inclusive community and your ideas are more than welcome here. Don't be afraid to discuss these issues; that's what the thread is for!
@Arvia it's only through the crucible of opposing views that you can truly strengthen your own. If nothing else, other people's viewpoints will increase your understanding of how other people think.
Truly, I invite you to stay and welcome the challenge of examining your beliefs. Truth need not fear questioning after all.
by the way the comparison of faiths with millions of followers, or also faiths with much less followers with unicorns and such things is imho not respectful at all.
both can not be proved with logic, but this is not the point of the comparison being not respectful. and is also perfectly true that in name of faiths and religions millions of people have been killed, bloody wars have been made, but again this is not the point.
the point is that almost no one really believes that unicorns exist, there is an universal agreement about them being fairy tales, and don't affect in any way our existence, while religions, the majority of which needs an act of faith, so a not logical decision, can deeply affect the life of the believers, and i would say also of the not believers, or believers in other things, living in a place where a religion is predominant.
and i am not saying that the influence of religion is always good, imho if sometimes is really good for some people and make them better human beings it can also generate fanaticism persecution and war.
but karl marx telling that the religions are the peoples opium was much more respectful then who compares the faith in a religion intended like a personal belief to belief in unicorns.
it is clear to me that who used that comparison here did not intend to not be respectful, even if could have used better words that that misplaced comparison, but i also see how can hurt for a person to have his act of faith (that is not a logical decision but something other) compared to believing in a fairy tail.
because this has to do directly to the dignity of an human being, there are great minds, scientists, philosophers leaders of nations, as well as much less intellectually gifted people that believe in religions as well as others that don't do that act of faith.
questioning the decision of some other person to do that act of faith, using a universally recognized fairy tail as comparison is like to questioning the human dignity of that person.
please @FinneousPJ think about it, apologize, even if i am sure that your intention was completely different, and then maybe @Arvia can decide to come back with us, or maybe not, is her right to make a choice.
truth need not fear questioning, is true, but to question things like deep believes that affect the whole attitude toward our own life need respect, utter respect if done in a social media between people that don't really know each other, with all the chances of misunderstanding that a text written on forums, possibly by people not writing in their native language, can bring.
maybe no one cares to look at it, but as i care i noticed that a person that in the first week of participation at the forums had posted 63 times and opened 2 discussions, by the way beating @JuliusBorisov in the this weak leaders rank, thing exceptional for a new member, has completely ceased to post after the last one in this tread. and today she has not even logged in. is possible that you had other things to do arvia, or maybe you need a little time to elaborate what happened, i really wish to have you back, at least in the forums as i have already told you how much i appreciate you. but i am not even sure that you will ever read those words...
people, to talk about religion on gaming forums is a really weird thing that can have consequences. on this forum we have an exceptional level of respect and politeness, in others is a continuous "noob", "L2P" and "idiot". but if we want to discuss of religion here please have some courtesy, have some sympathy, and some taste, use all your well-learned politesse or I'll lay your soul to waste...
@gorgonzola Thank you for your criticism. I have thought about it, and from my point of view, it is all a fairy tale with equal supporting evidence for unicorns and gods. I think it's important for religious people - who are often living in a bubble with religious people - to be exposed to this view point. Perhaps you can think on that.
Thank you everyone.
I was really beginning to like this forum (and its members) and have no intention to fight with anyone. I also just recovered from working 20 hours straight and am glad I signed in and saw the reactions, because this is a positively unusual surrounding for a forum. I had been reading in several forums, this is the only one I felt comfortable to register. Although it mainly was to talk about paladins and playing by conscience in "just a game" because I happened to read someone else's opinion about the matter @BelgarathMTH
@FinneousPJ If you find a bubble, you're welcome to try and burst it. I don't think I'm living in one and I think reading what I wrote in my first posts in this thread should have made that clear. I don't belong to some close or strict community. I was baptised in the Catholic church by my parents, grew up never doubting anything of it until maybe the age of 16 or something, started reading the Quran (and our own bible for that matter, you'd be surprised how many "Christians" have never read it), lectures by the Dalai Lama, books about Zen, talking to people of other Christian denominations and of course with atheists (lots of math and physics students), and there are many, I don't live in a traditionally religious place.
And yes @chimaera I also discovered how many people had been murdered and very old pagan traditions eradicated by force, by Christians in general and especially Catholics. I wanted nothing more to do with it.
But I also didn't find more truth in all the others, except maybe Zen, but I'm not quite ready for that, at least not yet.
I never really stopped feeling that there was "something else" whether you want to call it God or mother nature or our inner light or whatever. I believe there is something beyond conscious thought that makes us different from animals.
And later in life I realised that you should not judge a religion, not even your own, by those people who abused its name and never kept their own laws in the first place.
I know many Muslims who feel exactly like that, after 9/11 and everything that followed until now.
So, until I find out more, I'm loosely sticking to the concept I grew up with.
If there ever was a bubble, I have bursted it myself repeatedly. And even if an atheist might consider me living in a childish fairy tale, I know that many traditionally religious people I talked to consider me a doubting sceptic. I have no idea what I am.
@Arvia , I think your opinions sound very well-considered, and you maintain humility about your faith. Even though my own journey as a spiritual seeker led me to a place of atheism infused with some Buddhist meditation and philosophy, I can respect people of faith when they're thoughtful, compassionate, always studying and trying to learn new things, and don't try to force their beliefs on anyone else. I remain sympathetic to anyone searching for meaning in life, because it's human nature and a human need to find meaning, and I like the kind of optimistic faith you express that is based in hope. If a person says, "I don't know for certain whether there's a higher being or a higher purpose to life, but I consciously choose to hold onto the hope that there is, and to live and make my life decisions accordingly," then I can get on board with that, even as an atheist.
@gorgonzola Thank you for your criticism. I have thought about it, and from my point of view, it is all a fairy tale with equal supporting evidence for unicorns and gods. I think it's important for religious people - who are often living in a bubble with religious people - to be exposed to this view point. Perhaps you can think on that.
is a whole life that i am thinking about that, and my point of view is even more radical then yours. not only cause i think that also believing in the non existence of god share the very same lack of evidence
if i can not prove that unicorns don't exist, so i assume they exist is not logic.
roll back our scientific knowledge 150 years
if i can not prove that radio activity don't exist, so i assume it exist is not logic.
but actually radio activity exist, even if with the knowledge we had 150 years ago we had no way to know it.
so the logic tell us that if we don't have an evidence about something not existing we can not assume both its existence and its not existing. we simply don't know.
unless we demonstrate the existence of something mutually exclusive and then, as a theory, not as a Truth, we can assume that the thing is not existing, until a better theory is found.
ie the newton's theory was used until einstein's relativity proved it as a false theory that at not relativistic speed has enough approximation to be regarded as true. the last developments of physics seem to lead to better theories that will probably replace the einstenis's one.
remarkably the last developments of physics seem to lead to theory where the dimensions are not 4 but much more, to a reality our mind is not able to understand, even if we can create a mathematical model of it. and is the very same for many of those that claim they had a mystic experience of god and tell that it can not be explained in words and our mind is even not able to understand him.
as some conceptions of god are not mutually exclusive with the scientific knowledge we have at now we have no prove that god not exist.
to believe in unicorn, in the existence of god or in his not existence for me share the same lack of logic.
by the way probably unicorns exist and they are the rhinos. is very plausible that in ancient times travellers was talking of an animal with a horn on his forehead, and this notion can have reached europe, where the unicorn myth was born, maybe not 1rst hand, leading to the idea of an horse with that horn.
from my point of view when i assume that there is a real word behind the only thing that is am certain of, the existence of a conscience and perceptions and thoughts happening in it, i am believing in a fairy tail.
at night when i am dreaming i live in a word that is only existing in that dream, and the body i have is only made of dream, still i am not aware of it until i wake up. i have no evidence that also what we usually assume a real word and real body are not existing inside a dream of much larger extent and duration. even assuming that i can use the concept we to me is only a fairy tail.
and this is not a void intellectual speculation for me, is the foundation of my path, my quest to know who am i. from where i come and where i am going, even if usually i adopt the hypotheses that there is a real word to interact with the perceptions that seem to suggest its existence. both in a dream and in what is called real life.
about giving a shake to people living in a bubble i agree that sometimes is a good idea to do it, but some other times it can be very dangerous as putting someone out of his balance, if we are not masters of balance ourselves, we don't know if the result will be to have him finding a better form of balance or just crash. sometimes believing in fairy tails, like believe that god exist, or believe that god don't exist, or believe that the physical word exist, is a form of protection from madness, from superstition, from utter nihilism, and make the people better human beings. as i am still not a master of balance i personally am very reluctant in shaking people out of their bubbles, and i do it very seldom, only if the inner guidance i ever felt inside me tell me :"let's go, do it!".
but you have to follow your own inner guidance.
this is what i think, if you can give to me a better insight i am glad to hear it from you.
@gorgonzola Thank you for your criticism. I have thought about it, and from my point of view, it is all a fairy tale with equal supporting evidence for unicorns and gods. I think it's important for religious people - who are often living in a bubble with religious people - to be exposed to this view point. Perhaps you can think on that.
is a whole life that i am thinking about that, and my point of view is even more radical then yours. not only cause i think that also believing in the non existence of god share the very same lack of evidence
First of all, I don't think my point of view is radical at all.
roll back our scientific knowledge 150 years
if i can not prove that radio activity don't exist, so i assume it exist is not logic.
but actually radio activity exist, even if with the knowledge we had 150 years ago we had no way to know it.
so the logic tell us that if we don't have an evidence about something not existing we can not assume both its existence and its not existing. we simply don't know.
I agree, without evidence either way it is not logical to conclude something exists or does not exist.
unless we demonstrate the existence of something mutually exclusive and then, as a theory, not as a Truth, we can assume that the thing is not existing, until a better theory is found.
ie the newton's theory was used until einstein's relativity proved it as a false theory that at not relativistic speed has enough approximation to be regarded as true. the last developments of physics seem to lead to better theories that will probably replace the einstenis's one.
Newton's theory is still used and was never proved false. If I drop a carton of milk from my window I can use Newton's theory to predict how long it will take to hit the ground, for example.
remarkably the last developments of physics seem to lead to theory where the dimensions are not 4 but much more, to a reality our mind is not able to understand, even if we can create a mathematical model of it. and is the very same for many of those that claim they had a mystic experience of god and tell that it can not be explained in words and our mind is even not able to understand him.
If you mean "string theory" that's a hypothesis, not a scientific theory.
as some conceptions of god are not mutually exclusive with the scientific knowledge we have at now we have no prove that god not exist.
to believe in unicorn, in the existence of god or in his not existence for me share the same lack of logic.
I've never claimed proof of all conceptions of god not existing. This is completely irrelevant.
by the way probably unicorns exist and they are the rhinos. is very plausible that in ancient times travellers was talking of an animal with a horn on his forehead, and this notion can have reached europe, where the unicorn myth was born, maybe not 1rst hand, leading to the idea of an horse with that horn.
from my point of view when i assume that there is a real word behind the only thing that is am certain of, the existence of a conscience and perceptions and thoughts happening in it, i am believing in a fairy tail.
at night when i am dreaming i live in a word that is only existing in that dream, and the body i have is only made of dream, still i am not aware of it until i wake up. i have no evidence that also what we usually assume a real word and real body are not existing inside a dream of much larger extent and duration. even assuming that i can use the concept we to me is only a fairy tail.
and this is not a void intellectual speculation for me, is the foundation of my path, my quest to know who am i. from where i come and where i am going, even if usually i adopt the hypotheses that there is a real word to interact with the perceptions that seem to suggest its existence. both in a dream and in what is called real life.
What I gather from this is you're a solipsist, at which point a discussion seems pointless.
@FinneousPJ
i assumed that your point of view is radical as seems to me that you refuse to accept as true what can not be proven true, that you claim a clear superiority of logic over superstition. seeing the position on this matter of some billions of humans i find your point of view radical. i can be wrong, so i apologize.
"I don't know what this means." my lack of knowledge of english language don't allow me to explain me better then the way i do. it is a limit of mine, not of you.
"I agree, without evidence either way it is not logical to conclude something exists or does not exist."
this was exactly my point, so probably i lack not only of a fluent english but also of the ability to express my thinking in a short effective way.
"Newton's theory is still used and was never proved false. If I drop a carton of milk from my window I can use Newton's theory to predict how long it will take to hit the ground, for example."
nope, you can approximate your prediction to an extent that is way superior then the precision of the instruments that you can use to test your prediction as you are dealing with speed way slower then the speed of light, a not relativistic speed.
this is different then to regard the newton's theory as still true or valid, is proven false, but still used as at not relativistic speed is more then enough good approximation. using the einstein's theory and relativistic equations to predict the time the carton will take is the correct method, even if there is no sense at all to do it.
"If you mean "string theory" that's a hypothesis, not a scientific theory."
and this i why i told "seem to lead to theory", at now is only an hypothesis, and is not the only one, that if proved true can lead to the formulation of a theory.
"I've never claimed proof of some conceptions of god not existing. This is completely irrelevant."
true, but i am not sure that is not relevant.
"Do rhinos have magical powers? Unicorns do."
ask it to the rhinos that risk extinction cause so many people believe that their horn used in some potions and preparations has "magical" effects...
this make the hypothesis that the rhinos are the unicorns even more likely to be true, even if the european myth about them pictures them as something very different from the rhinos. take my phrase about rhinos and unicorns only as an hypothesis ( i can not prove it true) that a really existing animal, the rhino, was the origin of the myth of the unicorn, so, to some extent, the unicorns really exist, even if the european myth about them give a very imperfect image of what a unicorn-rhino really is.
"What I gather from this is you're a solipsist, at which point a discussion seems pointless."
whether i am solipsist, fool or other thing seems to me irrelevant to determine if a discussion is pointless or not. you can have not interest in such discussion and this is fine, but unless you can prove to yourself that there is a real word beyond the perceptions and thinking that the conscience witnesses why you refuse
" the challenge of examining your beliefs. Truth need not fear questioning after all." as yourself told to @Arvia, calling it pointless?
here i am claiming that you believe in the existence of something beyond your perceptions, other way you would not have called me solipsist, if is not so please qualify your position about it.
if you can prove it to yourself please enlighten me about, so far i was not able t prove it to myself nor to have someone that can suggest a logic path that prove the existence of a word as origin of the perceptions. i would really appreciate it and it would be really useful in my own quest.
"but the fool on the hill see the sun going down and the eyes in his mind see the word spinning round"
the beatles.
@FinneousPJ
i assumed that your point of view is radical as seems to me that you refuse to accept as true what can not be proven true, that you claim a clear superiority of logic over superstition. seeing the position on this matter of some billions of humans i find your point of view radical. i can be wrong, so i apologize.
Of course I claim a superiority of logic over superstition. However, I do not "refuse to accept as true what can not be proven true". Well, depends on what you mean by prove.
"I agree, without evidence either way it is not logical to conclude something exists or does not exist."
this was exactly my point, so probably i lack not only of a fluent english but also of the ability to express my thinking in a short effective way.
"Newton's theory is still used and was never proved false. If I drop a carton of milk from my window I can use Newton's theory to predict how long it will take to hit the ground, for example."
nope, you can approximate your prediction to an extent that is way superior then the precision of the instruments that you can use to test your prediction as you are dealing with speed way slower then the speed of light, a not relativistic speed.
this is different then to regard the newton's theory as still true or valid, is proven false, but still used as at not relativistic speed is more then enough good approximation. using the einstein's theory and relativistic equations to predict the time the carton will take is the correct method, even if there is no sense at all to do it.
You are mistaken, the failure of Newton's theory to describe every situation does not mean it was proven wrong. But you might want to take this up with physicists to have it removed from science books, I guess.
"Do rhinos have magical powers? Unicorns do."
ask it to the rhinos that risk extinction cause so many people believe that their horn used in some potions and preparations has "magical" effects...
this make the hypothesis that the rhinos are the unicorns even more likely to be true, even if the european myth about them pictures them as something very different from the rhinos. take my phrase about rhinos and unicorns only as an hypothesis ( i can not prove it true) that a really existing animal, the rhino, was the origin of the myth of the unicorn, so, to some extent, the unicorns really exist, even if the european myth about them give a very imperfect image of what a unicorn-rhino really is.
"What I gather from this is you're a solipsist, at which point a discussion seems pointless."
whether i am solipsist, fool or other thing seems to me irrelevant to determine if a discussion is pointless or not. you can have not interest in such discussion and this is fine, but unless you can prove to yourself that there is a real word beyond the perceptions and thinking that the conscience witnesses why you refuse
" the challenge of examining your beliefs. Truth need not fear questioning after all." as yourself told to @Arvia, calling it pointless?
here i am claiming that you believe in the existence of something beyond your perceptions, other way you would not have called me solipsist, if is not so please qualify your position about it.
if you can prove it to yourself please enlighten me about, so far i was not able t prove it to myself nor to have someone that can suggest a logic path that prove the existence of a word as origin of the perceptions. i would really appreciate it and it would be really useful in my own quest.
"but the fool on the hill see the sun going down and the eyes in his mind see the word spinning round"
the beatles.
A discussion with a solipsist is pointless, because they believe only in their own reality, and it is not possible to reach a conclusion what is true or not true for other people.
@FinneousPJ I can definitely agree with you that there are religious people who live in a bubble. I've had my own discussions with them. And I totally understand your desire to prove them wrong. Only, they are either so wrapped up in their bubble that it's pointless, or if they are not, they have probably heard and/or considered many of the points you brought up. I can't imagine a deeply religious person deciding to leave their church because somebody asked them to prove the existence of God (as opposed to unicorns and toasted fairies).
@BelgarathMTH Thank you. And I can highly respect and like atheists and their view of the world, especially because ethical values are to be even more respected when they are not born of some fear of punishment or looking forward to rewards in an afterlife (just speaking of religions and some of their members in general, not me)
Your post about meditation was very interesting, especially the practical examples like with the clock. I had given up trying to meditate because my thoughts could never keep quiet and I got distracted all the time , and I thought that if I don't manage that, it's pointless for me. I always thought I'm supposed to empty my mind (you know, like karate teachers encourage you to be like the quiet water in a pond) and that it was useless if I never managed that. But maybe to have some structure to guide the mind to be more quiet by focusing on few things is easier than trying to achieve that awareness with empty mind and lack of intention that seems so impossible to achieve.
Maybe it should have occurred to me to try to walk before I want to run.?
@FinneousPJ I can definitely agree with you that there are religious people who live in a bubble. I've had my own discussions with them. And I totally understand your desire to prove them wrong. Only, they are either so wrapped up in their bubble that it's pointless, or if they are not, they have probably heard and/or considered many of the points you brought up. I can't imagine a deeply religious person deciding to leave their church because somebody asked them to prove the existence of God (as opposed to unicorns and toasted fairies).
I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, I'm trying to have a discussion about why you believe what you believe. Nor do am I specifically interested in having anyone leave their church. What I want to do is help people examine their beliefs critically.
@FinneousPJ I can definitely agree with you that there are religious people who live in a bubble. I've had my own discussions with them. And I totally understand your desire to prove them wrong. Only, they are either so wrapped up in their bubble that it's pointless, or if they are not, they have probably heard and/or considered many of the points you brought up. I can't imagine a deeply religious person deciding to leave their church because somebody asked them to prove the existence of God (as opposed to unicorns and toasted fairies).
I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, I'm trying to have a discussion about why you believe what you believe. Nor do am I specifically interested in having anyone leave their church. What I want to do is help people examine their beliefs critically.
Perhaps instead you need to examine your beliefs metaphysically...
why do you assume that rhinos should have magical powers to be the unicorns?
i already stated that is possible that the unicorn myth has been originated by travellers reporting in europe the existence of the rhino.
i already told that between the myth and the real animal that originated it there are huge discrepancies, the horn is on a horse like creature and not on something that resembles more an hippopotamus, at least as dimension weight and proportions. an animal known in europe has been used.
the fact that magic is associated with the rhino horn, and this belief is even true in china, can have been distorted into the rhino having magic powers.
so take my initial statement about unicorns and rhinos as
" the existence of the unicorn is a myth originated by reports of the existence of rhino, an animal with a horn on the forehead, and on superstition about his horn having magical powers. the myth pictures an incorrect image of the rhino, as the body is not horse like and the supposed magic of the horn has become magic of the creature, but if the hypothesis (that by the way is not mine) is true the unicorn exist, is the rhino, even if the myth europeans have created about it has difference from the real creature."
about the rest of your points if you think that "A discussion with a solipsist is pointless" why bring the tread OT and bore the other forum mates, let's discuss it with PM, as we are already doing
( if someone is interested is possible to send the messages to multiple people so he can drop in, or we maybe create a new tread, we are going well behind the purpose of this one)
@FinneousPJ I can definitely agree with you that there are religious people who live in a bubble. I've had my own discussions with them. And I totally understand your desire to prove them wrong. Only, they are either so wrapped up in their bubble that it's pointless, or if they are not, they have probably heard and/or considered many of the points you brought up. I can't imagine a deeply religious person deciding to leave their church because somebody asked them to prove the existence of God (as opposed to unicorns and toasted fairies).
I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, I'm trying to have a discussion about why you believe what you believe. Nor do am I specifically interested in having anyone leave their church. What I want to do is help people examine their beliefs critically.
Perhaps instead you need to examine your beliefs metaphysically...
why do you assume that rhinos should have magical powers to be the unicorns?
Because a unicorn is a mythological creature with magical powers. Does the myth have a basis in reality? Probably; what myth doesn't. Does that mean unicorns exist? No, it does not. Is the hypothetical that rhinos might be the basis of the myth at all relevant? No. I agree that rhinos exist. I also agree there might be a connection, but I don't know how you might show that. I do not agree rhinos ARE unicorns.
Maybe you should point that out in the beginning. It's easy to misunderstand your intention.
I have had many similar discussions in the past and it never happened that way. But then, that was usually sitting around a table, not writing.
Maybe you should point that out in the beginning. It's easy to misunderstand your intention.
I have had many similar discussions in the past and it never happened that way. But then, that was usually sitting around a table, not writing.
Maybe you shouldn't assume other people's motivations We can play this game all day lol
@Arvia , most of my studies of meditation from various sources point out that there are quite a few "paths" and quite a few different kinds of disciplines and practices that can all lead to the desired state. (Calm, centered, quiet awareness, free of anxiety and worry, with occasional insight into existence or transcendent self, enlightenment.)
I find that it helps with my chaotic "monkey mind" that distracts me from meditation if I give it something to do. Counting time works really well for me, as well as repeating my mantra of "chitta vritti nirhoda". I've also occasionally tried reciting the multiplication tables to myself.
The usual advice from masters is to not get frustrated with the busy mind. When the mind wanders, we're told to simply notice the fact and calmly bring it back around to focus through whatever type of practice we've chosen. I read a book once that put it in a way that was very helpful to me. The author said to think of your thoughts as clouds floating by in the sky. You are not the thoughts, and you are not the sky in which they float. Your true self is above all that. The self merely observes. It is in the stream and the stream is in it, but it is not the stream. You can watch and notice the thoughts floating by without getting caught up in them, without letting them control you, and without mistakenly identifying with them.
Another illustration I find helpful is that chaotic, out-of-control thoughts are like a raging river. One may find oneself in the river, being helplessly tossed about. But with correct practice and awareness, one learns to swim to the shore and step out of the river. Then one can sit down peacefully on the shore, and watch all the thoughts and emotions swirling noisily by without being affected by them.
With enough practice, I've found that I can develop the skill of entering a meditative state of mind even while in the middle of the stresses of work. It really helps alleviate my suffering to be able to detach and observe from a non-emotional state, especially when people around me are losing control of their actions and emotions.
I've mercifully not had to practice it much, but I've been taught that these same techniques can be very helpful in bearing and living with chronic physical pain, as well.
I'll tell you what my mentor, who was also my piano professor, told me once. He asked "Do you still meditate?", after some months when we had not discussed it. I equivocated and made some excuse. "Umm, not really." He smiled slightly and said "Keep practicing."
He believed and was teaching me that the benefits to be gained by learning how to do it daily were well worth the persistence. Keep practicing.
Comments
why to hurry things, it will, when its time will come. and will be swallowed by mother earth and feed her so new life can be produced. the life span of a brain is so short compared to the one of a star or an universe. let the brain do what it is programmed to do.
@JLee is so right about it, if possible i would give 108 insightful to his post instead of the only one i can.
we are so conditioned into doing things, but meditation is not about doing, is all about witnessing.
witnessing the breath, that is an utterly powerful technique, or witnessing the thoughts that flow on the screen of the mind, that brain that does not want to shut up. or maybe watching arvia working as a doctor, drinking a coffee, feeling happy and proud when she looks at her kid/kids...
every moment is good for meditate, for celebrate the miracle of the conscience, cause there is only that moment, here and now, yesterday is gone forever and tomorrow who knows...
@Arvia
@FinneousPJ
you are both doing an outstanding work each one in the path that is the right one for you, don't be fooled by the fact that the paths seem so different, if each one is climbing and not diverging from his own route every path in the end will lead to the top of the mountain...
One is "chitta vritti nirhoda", which means "chattering whirlpool mind be still". Sometimes, when I need to quiet my mind and lose awareness of time creeping by, to fight off tension, anxiety, and/or boredom, I begin to chant that phrase to myself over and over, while breathing deeply.
Another is counting time. I imagine the stopwatch from "60 Minutes". I hear the ticking. Four ticks equals one second. I visualize the second hand going around the dial as I count 60 seconds. Then, I begin the second minute, the third, and so on. Often, rather than keeping track of the minutes, I contemplate clock time at a factor of 60 times faster. That is, I visualize a clock with the minute hand moving as though it were the second hand, and the hour hand moving at one hour per counted minute. I visualize the clock as showing each hour of the day and night, at a rate of one hour per real time minute. As the "hour hand" moves the time of day or night, I contemplate what that time means to me.
1:00 am, sleeping or, in youth, partying. 2:00 am, more sleeping or partying, 3:00 am, sleeping, or the bar closes down, 4:00 am, sleeping cleanly, or passed out drunk, 5:00 am, often have to think about getting up for work for a day shift job, 6:00 am, usually have to get up by this hour to be ready for work by 8:00 am, 7:00 am, showering, shaving, eating breakfast, drinking coffee, 8:00 am, most of the world is at work, 9:00 am, more work, 10:00 am, 11:00 am, getting hungry, looking towards lunch, 12:00 pm, lunch break, relief from work tedium, 1:00 pm, reluctantly back to work, 2:00 pm, more work, getting tired and frustrated sometimes, 3:00 pm, near dismissal for teachers, 4:00 pm, school day is mercifully over, 5:00 pm, most of the world commuting home, rush hour traffic, 6:00 pm, thinking about supper, 7:00 pm, time for entertainment or games, 8:00 pm, more games, or prime time on tv, 9:00 pm, getting sleepy, wishing there was no work the next day, 10:00 pm, getting really sleepy, often avoiding going to bed because not wanting to have to drag myself out of bed the next day for more work, 11:00 pm, getting very sleepy, maybe watch the news and the beginning of the late show, 12:00 pm, more late show watching, getting extremely sleepy, maybe beginning to party in youth on a weekend, 1:00 am....
Cycles within cycles, circles within circles. Sometimes I contemplate what all the people are doing on different shifts and in different professions. What is life like at each of the hours of the day and night in a hospital? For police and guards? For first responders of all stripes? In a 24 hour factory?
The "counting time" technique also works very well for quieting ear worms and general "monkey mind" chaotic thought whirlpools that could be keeping me awake when I know I need to sleep. Used as an insomnia remedy, I've rarely gotten higher than 24 minutes before drifting off to sleep.
This video is a percussion arrangement of the mantra "chitti vritti nirodha". I think it's too busy in sound to be good for meditation, but I use it just as a mnemonic to remember the phrase.
I find this combined with focussed breathing helps me calm down and still the waters.
still i think that many people will feel something, not with the logic, but at an other level, i would tell with the hearth even if is not a correct statement, watching this little being with its moving flagellum live the last moment of its life and finally dissolve.
the logic tells us that life is only there cause an organic substrate and cease to be as the substrate dissolve. and at a logic level this is surely true.
but listening to that other, not logic, feeling is possible to hear something resonate inside us, and it resonates in the very same point where joy also resonate that is also the point where the people instinctively point the index finger at referring to themselves, that is not where the physical hearth is.
focusing on that point of the body while feeling "solidarity" for that little being can be the door to discover a precious treasure. feeling that little "i am" conscience fight to continue to be can teach a very well hidden secret, as the best way to hide something is right in front of the sight of everybody...
this is why some masters tell that there is nothing to reach, no perfection, no enlightenment, that when you find a buddha you have to slain that buddha.
you have proposed to us a wonderful form of meditation @FinneousPJ, that does not imply any act of faith, does not contradict the logic in any way, but can really open a different level of understanding.
much more then reading a thousand of books about spirituality.
thanks you so much!
(Referring to your post about minorities)
@JLee
@BelgarathMTH
@FinneousPJ
and everybody else
again, I apologise. I was not implying that there is more truth in greater numbers or anything. My post was a very clumsy attempt to defend myself because I felt attacked after sharing some things that I don't usually talk about very much. I will stop trying to explain or justify, I'm embarrassed enough as it is. I'm also going to keep out of this conversation, I really didn't want to disturb this discussion and I am very sorry.
i perfectly understand how you feel now, to open some very private parts of ourselves and being/feeling to be attacked can be quite painful.
but they say that everything that don't kill us make us stronger... you are still alive and a little stronger, even if probably to leave the topic is the better thing for you.
this does not mean that i am siding on your side or i agree completely with what you have told, means only that i side on my own side, i have to follow the path that is good for me, but the more i progress in my path the more i can see the light in the path of other people, as long as there is no fanaticism and claim of superiority in it.
i see you and @FinneousPJ like the opposite parts of a tibetan mandala, each one is a statement of something incompatible with its opposite, and the truth behind both can only be understood transcending the mandala itself.
@Arvia it's only through the crucible of opposing views that you can truly strengthen your own. If nothing else, other people's viewpoints will increase your understanding of how other people think.
But I also like to see @FinneousPJ spring into action.
I agree with the point @gorgonzola was making earlier. (feebly simplifying) We are richer for prose and poetry. Either way you go, if you are earnest, you will get there. I happen to like the balance of both.
I guess that's why I really like this thread and hope everyone feels like they can post if they want to. I am grateful to all of you for posting your experiences and point of view here. We are all richer for it!
who talks don't know
and who knows don't talk
but i would say that sometimes can sing...
I know no one's going to show me everything
We all come and go unknown
Each so deep and superficial
Between the forceps and the stone
J.M.
an absolute defeat
is the most valuable treasure
suiò
Truly, I invite you to stay and welcome the challenge of examining your beliefs. Truth need not fear questioning after all.
both can not be proved with logic, but this is not the point of the comparison being not respectful. and is also perfectly true that in name of faiths and religions millions of people have been killed, bloody wars have been made, but again this is not the point.
the point is that almost no one really believes that unicorns exist, there is an universal agreement about them being fairy tales, and don't affect in any way our existence, while religions, the majority of which needs an act of faith, so a not logical decision, can deeply affect the life of the believers, and i would say also of the not believers, or believers in other things, living in a place where a religion is predominant.
and i am not saying that the influence of religion is always good, imho if sometimes is really good for some people and make them better human beings it can also generate fanaticism persecution and war.
but karl marx telling that the religions are the peoples opium was much more respectful then who compares the faith in a religion intended like a personal belief to belief in unicorns.
it is clear to me that who used that comparison here did not intend to not be respectful, even if could have used better words that that misplaced comparison, but i also see how can hurt for a person to have his act of faith (that is not a logical decision but something other) compared to believing in a fairy tail.
because this has to do directly to the dignity of an human being, there are great minds, scientists, philosophers leaders of nations, as well as much less intellectually gifted people that believe in religions as well as others that don't do that act of faith.
questioning the decision of some other person to do that act of faith, using a universally recognized fairy tail as comparison is like to questioning the human dignity of that person.
please @FinneousPJ think about it, apologize, even if i am sure that your intention was completely different, and then maybe @Arvia can decide to come back with us, or maybe not, is her right to make a choice.
truth need not fear questioning, is true, but to question things like deep believes that affect the whole attitude toward our own life need respect, utter respect if done in a social media between people that don't really know each other, with all the chances of misunderstanding that a text written on forums, possibly by people not writing in their native language, can bring.
maybe no one cares to look at it, but as i care i noticed that a person that in the first week of participation at the forums had posted 63 times and opened 2 discussions, by the way beating @JuliusBorisov in the this weak leaders rank, thing exceptional for a new member, has completely ceased to post after the last one in this tread. and today she has not even logged in. is possible that you had other things to do arvia, or maybe you need a little time to elaborate what happened, i really wish to have you back, at least in the forums as i have already told you how much i appreciate you. but i am not even sure that you will ever read those words...
people, to talk about religion on gaming forums is a really weird thing that can have consequences. on this forum we have an exceptional level of respect and politeness, in others is a continuous "noob", "L2P" and "idiot". but if we want to discuss of religion here please have some courtesy, have some sympathy, and some taste, use all your well-learned politesse or I'll lay your soul to waste...
I was really beginning to like this forum (and its members) and have no intention to fight with anyone. I also just recovered from working 20 hours straight and am glad I signed in and saw the reactions, because this is a positively unusual surrounding for a forum. I had been reading in several forums, this is the only one I felt comfortable to register. Although it mainly was to talk about paladins and playing by conscience in "just a game" because I happened to read someone else's opinion about the matter @BelgarathMTH
@FinneousPJ If you find a bubble, you're welcome to try and burst it. I don't think I'm living in one and I think reading what I wrote in my first posts in this thread should have made that clear. I don't belong to some close or strict community. I was baptised in the Catholic church by my parents, grew up never doubting anything of it until maybe the age of 16 or something, started reading the Quran (and our own bible for that matter, you'd be surprised how many "Christians" have never read it), lectures by the Dalai Lama, books about Zen, talking to people of other Christian denominations and of course with atheists (lots of math and physics students), and there are many, I don't live in a traditionally religious place.
And yes @chimaera I also discovered how many people had been murdered and very old pagan traditions eradicated by force, by Christians in general and especially Catholics. I wanted nothing more to do with it.
But I also didn't find more truth in all the others, except maybe Zen, but I'm not quite ready for that, at least not yet.
I never really stopped feeling that there was "something else" whether you want to call it God or mother nature or our inner light or whatever. I believe there is something beyond conscious thought that makes us different from animals.
And later in life I realised that you should not judge a religion, not even your own, by those people who abused its name and never kept their own laws in the first place.
I know many Muslims who feel exactly like that, after 9/11 and everything that followed until now.
So, until I find out more, I'm loosely sticking to the concept I grew up with.
If there ever was a bubble, I have bursted it myself repeatedly. And even if an atheist might consider me living in a childish fairy tale, I know that many traditionally religious people I talked to consider me a doubting sceptic. I have no idea what I am.
is a whole life that i am thinking about that, and my point of view is even more radical then yours. not only cause i think that also believing in the non existence of god share the very same lack of evidence
roll back our scientific knowledge 150 years
if i can not prove that radio activity don't exist, so i assume it exist is not logic.
but actually radio activity exist, even if with the knowledge we had 150 years ago we had no way to know it.
so the logic tell us that if we don't have an evidence about something not existing we can not assume both its existence and its not existing. we simply don't know.
unless we demonstrate the existence of something mutually exclusive and then, as a theory, not as a Truth, we can assume that the thing is not existing, until a better theory is found.
ie the newton's theory was used until einstein's relativity proved it as a false theory that at not relativistic speed has enough approximation to be regarded as true. the last developments of physics seem to lead to better theories that will probably replace the einstenis's one.
remarkably the last developments of physics seem to lead to theory where the dimensions are not 4 but much more, to a reality our mind is not able to understand, even if we can create a mathematical model of it. and is the very same for many of those that claim they had a mystic experience of god and tell that it can not be explained in words and our mind is even not able to understand him.
as some conceptions of god are not mutually exclusive with the scientific knowledge we have at now we have no prove that god not exist.
to believe in unicorn, in the existence of god or in his not existence for me share the same lack of logic.
by the way probably unicorns exist and they are the rhinos. is very plausible that in ancient times travellers was talking of an animal with a horn on his forehead, and this notion can have reached europe, where the unicorn myth was born, maybe not 1rst hand, leading to the idea of an horse with that horn.
from my point of view when i assume that there is a real word behind the only thing that is am certain of, the existence of a conscience and perceptions and thoughts happening in it, i am believing in a fairy tail.
at night when i am dreaming i live in a word that is only existing in that dream, and the body i have is only made of dream, still i am not aware of it until i wake up. i have no evidence that also what we usually assume a real word and real body are not existing inside a dream of much larger extent and duration. even assuming that i can use the concept we to me is only a fairy tail.
and this is not a void intellectual speculation for me, is the foundation of my path, my quest to know who am i. from where i come and where i am going, even if usually i adopt the hypotheses that there is a real word to interact with the perceptions that seem to suggest its existence. both in a dream and in what is called real life.
about giving a shake to people living in a bubble i agree that sometimes is a good idea to do it, but some other times it can be very dangerous as putting someone out of his balance, if we are not masters of balance ourselves, we don't know if the result will be to have him finding a better form of balance or just crash. sometimes believing in fairy tails, like believe that god exist, or believe that god don't exist, or believe that the physical word exist, is a form of protection from madness, from superstition, from utter nihilism, and make the people better human beings. as i am still not a master of balance i personally am very reluctant in shaking people out of their bubbles, and i do it very seldom, only if the inner guidance i ever felt inside me tell me :"let's go, do it!".
but you have to follow your own inner guidance.
this is what i think, if you can give to me a better insight i am glad to hear it from you.
First of all, I don't think my point of view is radical at all.
I don't know what this means.
I agree, without evidence either way it is not logical to conclude something exists or does not exist.
I don't know what this means.
Newton's theory is still used and was never proved false. If I drop a carton of milk from my window I can use Newton's theory to predict how long it will take to hit the ground, for example.
If you mean "string theory" that's a hypothesis, not a scientific theory.
I've never claimed proof of all conceptions of god not existing. This is completely irrelevant.
Do rhinos have magical powers? Unicorns do.
What I gather from this is you're a solipsist, at which point a discussion seems pointless.
i assumed that your point of view is radical as seems to me that you refuse to accept as true what can not be proven true, that you claim a clear superiority of logic over superstition. seeing the position on this matter of some billions of humans i find your point of view radical. i can be wrong, so i apologize.
"I don't know what this means." my lack of knowledge of english language don't allow me to explain me better then the way i do. it is a limit of mine, not of you.
"I agree, without evidence either way it is not logical to conclude something exists or does not exist."
this was exactly my point, so probably i lack not only of a fluent english but also of the ability to express my thinking in a short effective way.
"Newton's theory is still used and was never proved false. If I drop a carton of milk from my window I can use Newton's theory to predict how long it will take to hit the ground, for example."
nope, you can approximate your prediction to an extent that is way superior then the precision of the instruments that you can use to test your prediction as you are dealing with speed way slower then the speed of light, a not relativistic speed.
this is different then to regard the newton's theory as still true or valid, is proven false, but still used as at not relativistic speed is more then enough good approximation. using the einstein's theory and relativistic equations to predict the time the carton will take is the correct method, even if there is no sense at all to do it.
"If you mean "string theory" that's a hypothesis, not a scientific theory."
and this i why i told "seem to lead to theory", at now is only an hypothesis, and is not the only one, that if proved true can lead to the formulation of a theory.
"I've never claimed proof of some conceptions of god not existing. This is completely irrelevant."
true, but i am not sure that is not relevant.
"Do rhinos have magical powers? Unicorns do."
ask it to the rhinos that risk extinction cause so many people believe that their horn used in some potions and preparations has "magical" effects...
this make the hypothesis that the rhinos are the unicorns even more likely to be true, even if the european myth about them pictures them as something very different from the rhinos. take my phrase about rhinos and unicorns only as an hypothesis ( i can not prove it true) that a really existing animal, the rhino, was the origin of the myth of the unicorn, so, to some extent, the unicorns really exist, even if the european myth about them give a very imperfect image of what a unicorn-rhino really is.
"What I gather from this is you're a solipsist, at which point a discussion seems pointless."
whether i am solipsist, fool or other thing seems to me irrelevant to determine if a discussion is pointless or not. you can have not interest in such discussion and this is fine, but unless you can prove to yourself that there is a real word beyond the perceptions and thinking that the conscience witnesses why you refuse
" the challenge of examining your beliefs. Truth need not fear questioning after all." as yourself told to @Arvia, calling it pointless?
here i am claiming that you believe in the existence of something beyond your perceptions, other way you would not have called me solipsist, if is not so please qualify your position about it.
if you can prove it to yourself please enlighten me about, so far i was not able t prove it to myself nor to have someone that can suggest a logic path that prove the existence of a word as origin of the perceptions. i would really appreciate it and it would be really useful in my own quest.
"but the fool on the hill see the sun going down and the eyes in his mind see the word spinning round"
the beatles.
Of course I claim a superiority of logic over superstition. However, I do not "refuse to accept as true what can not be proven true". Well, depends on what you mean by prove.
You are mistaken, the failure of Newton's theory to describe every situation does not mean it was proven wrong. But you might want to take this up with physicists to have it removed from science books, I guess.
Please explain how it's relevant, then.
tl;dr no, they do not have magical powers
A discussion with a solipsist is pointless, because they believe only in their own reality, and it is not possible to reach a conclusion what is true or not true for other people.
@BelgarathMTH Thank you. And I can highly respect and like atheists and their view of the world, especially because ethical values are to be even more respected when they are not born of some fear of punishment or looking forward to rewards in an afterlife (just speaking of religions and some of their members in general, not me)
Your post about meditation was very interesting, especially the practical examples like with the clock. I had given up trying to meditate because my thoughts could never keep quiet and I got distracted all the time , and I thought that if I don't manage that, it's pointless for me. I always thought I'm supposed to empty my mind (you know, like karate teachers encourage you to be like the quiet water in a pond) and that it was useless if I never managed that. But maybe to have some structure to guide the mind to be more quiet by focusing on few things is easier than trying to achieve that awareness with empty mind and lack of intention that seems so impossible to achieve.
Maybe it should have occurred to me to try to walk before I want to run.?
I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, I'm trying to have a discussion about why you believe what you believe. Nor do am I specifically interested in having anyone leave their church. What I want to do is help people examine their beliefs critically.
Perhaps instead you need to examine your beliefs metaphysically...
i already stated that is possible that the unicorn myth has been originated by travellers reporting in europe the existence of the rhino.
i already told that between the myth and the real animal that originated it there are huge discrepancies, the horn is on a horse like creature and not on something that resembles more an hippopotamus, at least as dimension weight and proportions. an animal known in europe has been used.
the fact that magic is associated with the rhino horn, and this belief is even true in china, can have been distorted into the rhino having magic powers.
so take my initial statement about unicorns and rhinos as
" the existence of the unicorn is a myth originated by reports of the existence of rhino, an animal with a horn on the forehead, and on superstition about his horn having magical powers. the myth pictures an incorrect image of the rhino, as the body is not horse like and the supposed magic of the horn has become magic of the creature, but if the hypothesis (that by the way is not mine) is true the unicorn exist, is the rhino, even if the myth europeans have created about it has difference from the real creature."
about the rest of your points if you think that "A discussion with a solipsist is pointless" why bring the tread OT and bore the other forum mates, let's discuss it with PM, as we are already doing
( if someone is interested is possible to send the messages to multiple people so he can drop in, or we maybe create a new tread, we are going well behind the purpose of this one)
@Balrog99 What does that even mean?
Because a unicorn is a mythological creature with magical powers. Does the myth have a basis in reality? Probably; what myth doesn't. Does that mean unicorns exist? No, it does not. Is the hypothetical that rhinos might be the basis of the myth at all relevant? No. I agree that rhinos exist. I also agree there might be a connection, but I don't know how you might show that. I do not agree rhinos ARE unicorns.
Maybe you should point that out in the beginning. It's easy to misunderstand your intention.
I have had many similar discussions in the past and it never happened that way. But then, that was usually sitting around a table, not writing.
Maybe you shouldn't assume other people's motivations
I find that it helps with my chaotic "monkey mind" that distracts me from meditation if I give it something to do. Counting time works really well for me, as well as repeating my mantra of "chitta vritti nirhoda". I've also occasionally tried reciting the multiplication tables to myself.
The usual advice from masters is to not get frustrated with the busy mind. When the mind wanders, we're told to simply notice the fact and calmly bring it back around to focus through whatever type of practice we've chosen. I read a book once that put it in a way that was very helpful to me. The author said to think of your thoughts as clouds floating by in the sky. You are not the thoughts, and you are not the sky in which they float. Your true self is above all that. The self merely observes. It is in the stream and the stream is in it, but it is not the stream. You can watch and notice the thoughts floating by without getting caught up in them, without letting them control you, and without mistakenly identifying with them.
Another illustration I find helpful is that chaotic, out-of-control thoughts are like a raging river. One may find oneself in the river, being helplessly tossed about. But with correct practice and awareness, one learns to swim to the shore and step out of the river. Then one can sit down peacefully on the shore, and watch all the thoughts and emotions swirling noisily by without being affected by them.
With enough practice, I've found that I can develop the skill of entering a meditative state of mind even while in the middle of the stresses of work. It really helps alleviate my suffering to be able to detach and observe from a non-emotional state, especially when people around me are losing control of their actions and emotions.
I've mercifully not had to practice it much, but I've been taught that these same techniques can be very helpful in bearing and living with chronic physical pain, as well.
I'll tell you what my mentor, who was also my piano professor, told me once. He asked "Do you still meditate?", after some months when we had not discussed it. I equivocated and made some excuse. "Umm, not really." He smiled slightly and said "Keep practicing."
He believed and was teaching me that the benefits to be gained by learning how to do it daily were well worth the persistence. Keep practicing.