Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

How would you implement the wicked influence of the Ring of Gaxx?

2

Comments

  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 119
    I think the easiest fix is to make it a detriment to CHA. That aura of evil really should screw up your ability to sweet talk people.

  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 896
    Making it unreliable is an interesting idea, though I wouldn't want to use it in a no-reload.

    The Item Revisions mod made its powers a bit more necromantic:

    Ring of Gaxx
    Special Abilities:
    Finger of Death (once per day)
    Vampiric Touch (three times per day)
    Equipped Abilities:
    Armor Class: +2 bonus
    Saving Throws: +2 bonus
    Regeneration: 1hp every 6 seconds
    Immunity to disease & poison effects

    Chronicler
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    edited April 13
    @jsaving still you missed my point, the hell trials are something exceptional, where you are put to a test, the guardian of the tears are explicit about it. this is why your choices in that particular situation can make you change alignment.
    not only other choices that in a normal situation don't make you change alignment, like killing a dragon, but even if we look at similar choices we see that there is no change.
    if you buy the robe of vecna, that comes from a lich as evil as kangaxx, you maintain your alignment.
    and if you get soul reaver is the same. and to get it you have to offer a sacrifice to the prince of demons himself. in the game a paladin or a priest of lathander can offer a sacrifice, so worship demogorgon without any consequence, he does not fall, he does not change alignment and don't even loose a single point of rep.
    if a good oriented mage or a chaotic thief directly equip the robe or sword also nothing happens.
    this imho is a good enough evidence that in the game lore to do evil things make only the rep go down, but never make an alignment change. outside the very specific situation in which charname is put to a test, and by the way is technically dead, with the soul still stripped away. ellesime is clear about it in the soa epilogue, tell him that he has been resurrected.

    in the game lore there is evidence that the ring has an evil aura, so if some effect there must be, it must be related to the item, not the choice. the OP is clear about it:
    Chronicler wrote: »
    In game the Ring of Gaxx is described as radiating an evil aura. In sourcebooks apparently it's described as corrupting its user, like The One Ring.
    Say you wanted to implement that in this game.............
    we don't agree that is the choice that matters, cause the aura is not related to the charname's choice, but in embedded in the item independently. my point is that only a choice, in a very particular situation, the hell trials, can make charname fall, but in the case of kangaxx and his ring is the item that matters, not the choice.

    about the helm is true that is an item and can change alignment, but is not cause is evil, is cause is a magic tool designed specifically for that purpose, surely kangaxx has not created the ring with that specific scope.



  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 119
    Paladins and clerics should face consequences from doing some of those things. The fact that those things can be done without consequence is at best an oversight and at worst a bug.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 730
    AD&D is pretty specific about artifact-level magic items being made with such powerful magic that they have some amount of sentience. That needs to be understood when you consider the ring's "corrupting influence." It is an actual sentient entity, created by deity-level magic, in constant contact with you and constanty and malevolently trying to weaken and corrupt you. It does not want to help you (unless you are evil already... and I mean like really evil). It probably literally resents regenerating your wounds.

    As to how that could manifest mechanically? Almost anything could work. Constantly struggling against it could sap your vitality, resulting in a reduction in CON, ot max HP... or it could reduce your WIS and CHA, or your saving throws... it could progressively reduce your reputation over time (simulating an "aura" of evil that eventually makes good companions abandon you)...

    How about: if you are not evil, the ring is sort of in a state of protest. Have the effects trigger every round, with a 50% probability, so it constantly blinks on and off, as it actively tries to stop helping you. If the effects are unreliable, that could be pretty cool.

    So something like Lilarcor could also be appropriate?

    Zaghoul
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    edited April 13
    @Maurvir maybe this is a game that leave to the players freedom to play like they want, from the most meticulous and strict rp to the extreme pg.
    to regard such things as bugs that have to be fixed is to force to the players the way you like to play the game. at now i care about rp, in my own way, but for many years i did not give a **** about rp, my alignment choice was only and exclusively related to the kind of familiar i wanted for that run.
    the fact that each player can play it in his own way is one of the main reasons why this game is so great.
    paladins and clerics should do what the player think is better they do. right now there is @Arvia that is playing a pally and does not need to be forced to not do certain things, she avoid to do them cause is the way she like to play, the way that give her fun.

  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 307
    edited April 13
    Lilarcor is not evil but mad. It's not its fault that there are no therapists for mentally ill swords.
    I have no ethical problems using Lilarcor. Acquiring it is another matter.
    Anyway, only Keldorn is using two handed swords in my current party, and his own sword is good enough until you get Carsomyr.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    thing that i suppose will happen at the end of your stronghold and not the first time you find the dragon...

  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 87
    Maurvir wrote: »
    Yeah, that ring really should have only been available to evil or (maybe) neutral characters. That would have ticked off people who did the quest, but it really would have made sense.

    I see your point, but then there would have to be a similar item for good aligned characters.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    edited April 13
    @Gatekeep3r @Maurvir the original creators of the game have on purpose taken some decisions, they already have set some, very few, items as usable only or not usable depending on class and alingnment. the holy sword is pally only, adzuredge can only be used by good alignsed and soul reaver only by evil ones. the fact that the ring of gaxx has not such limitations is clearly intended. the devs can not have been overlooked such thing on a powerful item final reward of a quest that is somehow an easter egg, even if more easy to find then the twisted rune, and is the loot of a battle that (without knowing how to deal with it using tactics learned from internet) can be extremely hard.
    a player can mod his game as he want, this is sure, some mods like items revision change a lot of items from how they was originally designed, and item upgrade make possible to create new powerful items having cromwell and cespenar merge existing items. and this is fine.
    but to say that the ring of gaxx should have a alignment limitation or should be different from what it is is like to say that all the players should play with item upgrade or items revision.
    i would say that a player can mod his game so... that is completely different then telling the ring should...

    smyth25
  • smyth25smyth25 Member Posts: 153
    I agree with @gorgonzola and others in the sense that the game devs had to make certain decisions for game balance purposes rather than RP purposes. For example in BG (and DnD in general I think?) you are not allowed to wear multiple items of protection/enchanted armour. However from an RP perspective this seems rather sketchy: Is there an invisible force that stops you from putting on that second ring? Does the sheer magical force causes the recipient to die instantly? To me any possible RP justification seems rather weak, however it had to be implemented or else it would be bonkers op (there would be less need for the Ring of Gaxx if you could wear multiple protection rings!).

    I find it to be a similar story with the Ring of Gaxx, it is an extremely hard to obtain item as a reward for an extremely hard quest (both the battle and the finding of the bones assuming you are a new player). While it is an extremely powerful ring, it may be considered unfair from a balance perspective to add penalties or limitations as you'll feel kinda cheated for going through all that effort to get an item that ends up being a mixed bag at best. I know I would personally find it very frustrating if the ring was making decisions on my behalf!

    This debate also makes me think about the Cloak of Displacement, which in its description says that it has been the cause of serious eyestrain amongst fellow party members. Does this mean it should reduce the THAC0 of all party members except for the wearer of the cloak? I would say no as it would make the item pretty trash, or frustrating if you decided to buff the item. This example just illustrates that it may not be appropriate for all items to follow their descriptions to an absolute T.

    I feel if one wanted to add RP components to the Ring of Gaxx then they could implement someway to restore the item to it's vanilla glory. Perhaps Charname needs to get the item cleansed by a priest before they can wear it without harm? Perhaps Charname needs to be simultaneously wearing a holy amulet that allows them to wear the ring without harm? The point is that it is possible to implement potentially frustrating RP elements, but there could also be a RP way to remove that frustration.

    gorgonzolaleeux
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 119
    edited April 13
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    @Maurvir maybe this is a game that leave to the players freedom to play like they want, from the most meticulous and strict rp to the extreme pg.
    to regard such things as bugs that have to be fixed is to force to the players the way you like to play the game. at now i care about rp, in my own way, but for many years i did not give a **** about rp, my alignment choice was only and exclusively related to the kind of familiar i wanted for that run.
    the fact that each player can play it in his own way is one of the main reasons why this game is so great.
    paladins and clerics should do what the player think is better they do. right now there is @Arvia that is playing a pally and does not need to be forced to not do certain things, she avoid to do them cause is the way she like to play, the way that give her fun.

    Nothing about what I said implied you couldn't do those things, but rather that doing them should have some affect on that character as a result. You have absolute freedom to jump off a cliff. You don't necessarily have the freedom to avoid hitting the bottom in a rather unfortunate way.

    One of the better, if minor, examples is where you can lie to a certain NPC in the slums of Athkatla and claim to be a worshipper of a certain god. This god doesn't care for your lie and sends a lightning bolt to punish you.

    Arvia
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    is true, choices have consequences, you are also free to become the slayer and die for it. my point is that the original developers gave mechanical reasons to don't do certain choices (penalties) to force you to rp only in very few instances, as barred the use of very little items for alignment reasons.
    while the bulk of the game let you play caring of the rp aspect or completely ignoring it. it is true for kangaxx and his ring, for a paladin that worships the demon prince, for a good oriented charname that chose to fight him in wk instead of sealing him again and in many other instances. even the way the npc react to your choices give you usually a great freedom, there is a choice in saradush that can lead aerie to leave the party and some other similar situations, but the general criteria is that only the party rep determine if the npc want or not want to be part of your party. a good oriented player can recruit evil npcs and an evil one good ones.

    a player can play the game in a strict rp way or almost completely ignore it and focus on beating the battles, having to care only about few instances where the rp aspect is forced on the player, where to not play in that way give some disadvantages.
    i was answering to a precise statement from you that i quote now:
    Maurvir wrote: »
    Paladins and clerics should face consequences from doing some of those things. The fact that those things can be done without consequence is at best an oversight and at worst a bug.
    i was answering, and i stand on my position, that to force the player to rp only in very few instances is a design choice, not an oversight and surely not a bug.

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 495
    edited April 13
    It is a design choice, yes, but not a sensible or consistent one.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 730
    The conversation seems to be turning more to whether it should be implemented, rather than how you would choose to implement it.

    I should be clear that my intent in starting this thread was never to second guess the developers, but rather to play a fun "what if" game.

    There are a variety of reasons they might not have implemented it, ranging from gameplay concerns to time/budget constraints, and that's fine.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    @Chronicler i had suspected that your scope was gathering opinions about the how because you was planning to write a mod or something similar and you wanted some brainstorming before. but to play the "what if" game is as good as reason. it has always been clear to me that you was asking about how and not about if, your op post is clear enough about it.
    i already gave you my point of view on how i would implement the thing, and i gave to others my opinion about why to not force it to the players, eventually offer it as a choice.

    @jsaving i agree that the choice lack of consistency, but i am glad that the original developers made it. probably if the creators would have forced me into their own way to see rp, instead of giving me freedom to do it in my way or to don't do it at all in some phases of my adventure, the adventure would not have been almost 20 years lasting, and still going now. as the choice does not affect the players that have a different sensibility then mine about rp, they can self impose all the limitations they like according to their rp feelings, i would say that the choice was very sensible.

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 495
    Totally agree that everyone should RP as they see fit, but that doesn't mean you should be able to RP as chaotic evil while still receiving the in-game benefits of a different alignment, as some players do. The reason the Hell trials are so divisive isn't because it's unclear which path is evil, but rather because the game actually reacts to those choices for once and many players are like, wait a second, you just took away my "choices" by "making" me have an evil alignment. When the truth is they were evil all along, they just didn't have to suffer the consequences until now.

    Other BioWare games like Planescape and Knights of the Old Republic are a lot better about having your alignment match what you do rather than what you clicked on at character generation. You can still RP as you see fit but you do have to accept the consequences (and yes, those games are still played 10-20 years later).

    Chroniclergorgonzola
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 119
    jsaving wrote: »
    Totally agree that everyone should RP as they see fit, but that doesn't mean you should be able to RP as chaotic evil while still receiving the in-game benefits of a different alignment, as some players do. The reason the Hell trials are so divisive isn't because it's unclear which path is evil, but rather because the game actually reacts to those choices for once and many players are like, wait a second, you just took away my "choices" by "making" me have an evil alignment. When the truth is they were evil all along, they just didn't have to suffer the consequences until now.

    Other BioWare games like Planescape and Knights of the Old Republic are a lot better about having your alignment match what you do rather than what you clicked on at character generation. You can still RP as you see fit but you do have to accept the consequences (and yes, those games are still played 10-20 years later).

    This. So much this. Only at the very end (and then, only in SoA) do your choices actually have a real bearing on your character's development. The rest of the time, you can make choices which clearly deviate from your stated alignment without so much as a "um, are you sure?". The only real exception being party members possibly bailing on you at a certain point.

    The worst part is, there were so many obvious opportunities to do this right. :sigh:

    jsaving
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    One of the reasons I say BG is not really an RPG.

  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 119
    One of the reasons I say BG is not really an RPG.

    No, it's not, which is kind of ironic really given the fact that it is an actual, licensed D&D game. Part of that is the necessary story arc required, though, combined with a computer DM/GM. In a normal campaign, a human DM/GM can allow the party to deviate or solve problems in ways that might make it impossible to advance to the next stage "as written", but they know they can adapt on the fly.

    However, even within those constraints, I believe more true RP elements could have been implemented had Bioware had more time and money. Of course, they didn't, so they did the best they could and it is still one of the best CRPGs ever made. No complaints there.

  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 896
    There is an old mod for BG2 called Virtue that tried to represent alignment dynamically, but of course it's hard to keep that sort of thing updated for mod content as well.

    http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=107&Itemid=82

    gorgonzola
  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 87
    Unrelated, but I just vorpalled kangaxx with the axe of the unyielding. I thought he was immune to that?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    afaik in the not modded soa only bodhi is immune to the weapons that vorpal undeads. maybe also the demilich in wk is, but i am far less sure about it.

  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 87
    edited April 16
    It was his demilich form. Apparently he's protected from slay, but vorpal hit doesn't seem to count as that. Makes it a lot easier.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    wait, when i commented above it was very late and i was tired so i misread and thought you was talking of adzuredge. so ignore my comment about weapons that vorpal undeads.
    but both adzuredge and +3 unyielding have not the enchantment level needed to hit a demilich, and +3 unyielding is not vorpal, the +5 one or the upgraded adzuredge from items upgrade mod can hit demiliches. but to upgrade unyielding you need a component that you can only get in tob, so the thing is weird.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 960
    @gorgonzola Azuredge is not a vorpal weapon. Disruption and Vorpal are two very different things.
    Actually, Azuredge should not be disruptive either, since it is an axe. By D&D rules, only blunt weapons can be enchanted with Disruption. Disruption is the ability of a weapon to kill undead (unless they make their saves).
    Vorpal defines a weapon's magical ability to cut off heads. Hence, only bladed weapons can be vorpal. The vorpal ability is necromantic in nature and thus such a weapon may be inappropriate to use for your paladin or otherwise good-aligned character.

    gorgonzola
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 670
    According to the DMG, all artifacts will corrupt the user over time. But this will typically take years.

    So this probably isn’t going to have a significant effect over the timeframe the game would normally take place. I get the impression that a normal play through would take months typically - a year at most. Which is unlikely to have much effect on charname.

    And if charname chooses to become a god then the ring will become irrelevant. If charname makes another choice then any corruption will be some way down the line.

    Chronicler
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,410
    i continue to fail to see how the corruption effect, if it has to be implemented at all, should corrupt charname.
    it has to corrupt the one that equip the ring, that having not particular restrictions can be used by every npc and eventually charname.

  • DregothofTyrDregothofTyr Member Posts: 221
    In PnP the ring of Gaxx causes its user to turn into a demonic creature after wearing it for 24 hours, the transformation continues over the next 3 days and becomes permanent if it completes.

    Danacm
Sign In or Register to comment.