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Let's talk about the Kensai

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  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Extra APR, THAC0, weapon speed, and movement speed seem most relevant for a Kensai, but I think a good Kensai kit should still involve some damage bonuses. An increased critical hit chance would also be cool, though it's less meaningful without a mod removing helmet-based immunity to critical hits. Improving the enchantment of the weapon would also be nice, since a +4 weapon would make no sense at level 1 and a nonmagical weapon would be rather pathetic in ToB.

    If you're talking about attaching kit-specific passive opcodes to a custom weapon, wouldn't it be possible to level them? For instance, you could have an opcode that applied to level 1-5 characters and another opcode that applied to level 6+ characters. Though you might be able to level them using a spell file instead. This could let you tweak proficiencies, too: a katana-using Kensai's personal katana could be wielded at Grandmastery, but Celestial Fury could only be wielded at High Mastery, for example.

    Is it really possible to suppress opcodes? It seems like making leather armor negate the bonuses would require patching all leather armor in the game, and negating multiple different types of level-dependent bonuses sounds awfully complicated. Plus, doesn't override folder bloat slow down load times, or is that just me? I have no idea how you'd make dual-classing cancel the bonuses; it seems better to make dual-classing either impossible or leave it alone.

    You know, passive bonuses are nice, but innate abilities are more flashy. Why not make Kai a little more dramatic and make it last for a single blow? You could make Kai grant movement rate bonuses and deal extra damage, maybe with an increased critical hit chance, and use an on-hit melee .eff file that uses the Remove Effects by Resource opcode on the caster so it won't apply to every single hit?

    Kensais shouldn't be wearing armor; even leather armor just wouldn't feel right. Leather armor looks ridiculously bulky on male fighters, anyway, which doesn't fit the theme even if leather armor is very lightweight. Bracers should be fine conceptually, though it never made sense to me that bracers imitated the effects of wearing armor rather than simply improving AC by a flat amount.

    Limit them to proficiency in other weapons, or prevent them from getting the extra APR bonuses. The primary weapon should be the best in all situations except where special on-hit effects would make another weapon more situationally useful, like the Mace of Disruption or Frostreaver. Otherwise a scimitar-using Kensai might discover that Drizzt's scimitars or Belm, both of which can be gotten pretty early in the game, are just flat-out better than their own weapons.
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    Here is what I would do:

    1) A true weapon of choice - ban everything that is not your WoC.

    2) When wearing armor/bracers of defense, loses all the kits benefits.

    3) Kai would last 3 rounds instead of 1 round and 4 seconds.

    4) Kai wouldn't be allowed while wearing armor/bracers of defense.

    That's it. All the bonuses I would leave as they are in power and scale.
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,174
    edited March 2019
    I've never much liked the kensai kit because it seems overly coloured by orientalist fantasies. If one looks at the practices of Musashi- sometimes referred to as the Kensei (剣聖) of Japan- one finds many elements that contradict the idea of monomaniacal perfection. He advises that a warrior should master many arts, and was a noted ink painter himself. He preferred to dual wield two weapons, and disliked two handed fighting styles, but was flexible about the precise weapon to be used: "You can win with a long weapon, and yet you can also win with a short weapon. In short, the Way of the Ichi school is the spirit of winning, whatever the weapon and whatever its size." Musashi even advises against overusing the same weapon as one becomes predictable...

    However, all that preaching isn't necessarily useful from a game design perspective is it? :) (Though the feats in M&G are quite good for making single class fighters fun!) A few ideas therefore, if a dual wielding cultured warrior is too far from the norm:

    The Kensai may be a specialist in duels- AC bonuses in melee, worse vs missiles. Repeated hits on the same target could have cumulative bonuses, and when opponents miss they could suffer penalties due to the feared Kensai counterattack.

    Expanding on the counterattack notion there could be the idea of 'charging up', so that the Kensai has a rhythm of increasing in effectiveness over the duration of combat or cycling between offensive & defensive phases.

    On the penalties side the Kensai may be more used to humanoid opponents, and be more vulnerable fighting monsters. Should probably be able to wear some armour though.
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  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    I would rather follow @AndreaColombo 's idea and go PnP instead of creating houserules for Kensai class.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,525
    edited March 2019
    A couple more points:
    1. Minimum stat requirements for Kensai are: 12 STR, 14 DEX, 12 WIS.
    2. Kensai cannot use shields.
    3. The player must select one weapon or unarmed fighting style for his kensai character. The character automatically receives a proficiency (but not specialization) in that weapon or style without expending any proficiency slots.
    4. At 7th level, a Kensai causes Fear like a Samurai: The appearance of the samurai can cause fear in all creatures with 1 HD or less (saving throw versus breath weapon is allowed). The samurai can control this power, turning it on and off (as it were) at will. Any characters or creatures struck by fear flee from the samurai or surrender to him, depending on the circumstances. A creature that passes its saving throw is immune to this effect for the remainder of the encounter.

    Weapon Mastery rules did not exist at the time Oriental Adventures was published, so it is up to the DM to rule how Kensai would interact with them. In my opinion, a Kensai should not be able to specialize (let alone attain mastery or any kind) with any weapon other than their chosen/favored.

    I do not know how feasible this would be, but to implement a proper P&P Kensai it would be nice to have a "Favored Weapon" selection screen at character creation akin to the Ranger's "Favored Enemy" selection screen. The player would select their Kensai's favored weapon and automatically receive a proficiency point in it. They would then receive a normal amount of additional proficiency points to spend on other weapons; they would be allowed to specialize (2 pips) in their favored weapon at 1st level, but all other weapons would forever be limited to proficiency (1 pip.)

    All magical weapons of the chosen kind should be flagged as unusable for the Kensai. There is no ruling in the manual on magical weapons in which the Kensai is merely proficient, so I'd allow them—but RP-wise, it would be super weird for a Kensai to go around using a magical sword if they specialize in katanas, for example. I figure it would be hard to code a selective usability depending on favored weapon choice, so might as well flag all magical weapons as unusable for the Kensai.

    P&P Kensai can use ranged weapons, wear bracers, and wear helmets.

    The Samurai's aura of fear does not appear to scale with level. Limited to 1HD creatures, it would be pretty useless in the BG games.




  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 951
    I never like the idea of using one preferred weapon. Why not master a lot ?
    Btw other than kensai, a samurai kit wouldnt be better to create ?
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,525
    Danacm wrote: »
    I never like the idea of using one preferred weapon. Why not master a lot ?

    Isn't that the gist of the unkitted Fighter? :)
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,174
    In practice unkitted fighters focus on getting grandmastery in one or two weapons, unless alternate proficiency systems/ mods are employed. Having a kit that was at least competent with every weapon would be interesting, especially with item randomiser.
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    Personally I've always felt the Offensive spin of a Blade fits the Kensai archetype quite well.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    A couple minor things. I'm don't have a real preference of PnP vs. all new. SOme things for one that doesn't work for the other, BUT I really like a lot of what @AndreaColombo posted.
    The Ki system probably wouldn't work, so it can be safely dropped.
    @subtledoctor 's latest list looks pretty good, but I don't think barring the kit from ranged weapons makes a lot of sense. As long as they are dedicated to a weapon, it shouldn't really matter what that weapon is.
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 951
    Hm i like the concept of the disciplined warrior. Some ideas:
    - let him use bracers of armor(or other bracers), and gain bonus ac per 5(6-8)lvls up to lvl 20. It makes to be better at mid levels, and usable to alone without magic.
    With bracers of 6 her ac would be 2 with 18 dex. 1 ac per 5 lvls is maxed at 4 (5 if level 1 also gains) in lvl 20. So in lvl 20 with bracers of ac 3 would be -5 or -6.
    - use helmet, makes sense for a fighter to defending her head
    - iron will, or some save increasing ability to represents the disciplined life of a kensai. Maybe +2 save vs enchantments, or +1 per X levels.
    - the ki ability maybe represents only one final abilty that adds speed and deadly effects for a short time. Huge damage burst (5-10 dmg, or deathbringer assault type killing move) also likely, because it fits the glasscannon character, or the professional killer role.
    - use the ranged weapons, but class bonuses not added to ranged bonus.

    I imagine the kensai as a monk like, but self-trained disciplined professional soldier, adventurer. Always lawful for her code etc.
  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 430
    AndreaColombo wrote: »
    Have you considered going P&P on the Kensai?

    It's detailed in the AD&D 1E Oriental Adventures manual, which was unfortunately never updated to 2E. The [23 - DEX] natural AC part might be tricky to implement and you may have to let go of it, but the rest should be doable (items on the list are straight from the manual):
    • The kensai does not receive the Reaction/Attacking Adjustment or the Defensive Adjustment for a high Dexterity score. Instead a kensai begins with a natural armor class between 9 and 5. To find his armor class,subtract the character's Dexterity score from 23. The result is the character's natural armor class. For example, a kensai with Dexterity 16 has a natural armor class of 7. Thereafter, his natural armor class improves by one step for every three levels he attains (one step at 3d, another at 6th, etc.).
    • He also automatically has a +1 bonus on all initiative rolls, for both melee and missile combat. [...] This initiative bonus rises to +2 at 5th level and +3 at 9th level. [This would be Speed Factor in BG.]
    • Furthermore, the kensai receives a +1 bonus on all saving throws.
    • Through training with his particular weapon and his mental practice, the kensai learns to focus his ki power. This lets him cause maximum damage with a single attack when using his specialized weapon. [...] The kensai can use this power a number of times per day equal to his level. Thus a 5th-level kensai can use his ki power five times in a single day.
    • All kensai are immune to fear.
    • At 2nd level he causes one additional point of damage when using his specialty weapon. This increases by one again at 5th, 8th, 10th, and 12th level, for a total damage bonus of +5.
    • At 3rd level he gets a +1 bonus on his dice rolls to hit. This also allows him to hit creatures that normally can be hit only by magical +1 weapons. Both of these bonuses increase by one when the character reaches 5th, 8th, 10th, and 12th levels, for a total of +5 to hit and the equivalence of a magical +5 weapon.
    • At 7th level he can use two weapons simultaneously with no penalty. [Could be implemented as a +2 THAC0 to the off-hand, so that there's no penalty if the Kensai has 3 pips in Two-Weapon Fighting; alternatively, the Kensai could be unable to put pips in Two-Weapon Fighting, then at 7th level he gets 3 pips and +2 THAC0 with the off-hand.]
    • At 11th level the kensai can make a whirlwind attack. This is an additional ki power. The kensai concentrates his bodily energy and bursts into a blurring whirlwind of motion. This ability requires all of the character's ki power for the day (i.e., he cannot have used any ki power previously that day). The whirlwind attack can only be made with the specialty weapon. Using this power, the kensai can attack all opponents within 10 feet of him once in the same round. [Not sure this can be done? Could be 1 use of the already existing Whirlwind Attack but it consumes all Kai available?]
    • He can never use a magical weapon of the type he specializes in, since such a weapon is not a true measure of his skill. All types of armor are prohibited for the same reason. If a kensai fights with a weapon other than the one he specializes in, he gains only one-half the usual experience for opponents he defeats with it.

    This has already been created...

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/41836/mod-kensai-rebalancing-for-bg-ee-and-bgii-ee-v2-6#latest
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  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    subtledoctor wrote: »
    AndreaColombo wrote: »
    He can never use a magical weapon of the type he specializes in, since such a weapon is not a true measure of his skill.

    Is this something people would actually be interested in? I could make your chosen weapon automatically have an enchantment when you equip it, and could probably make magical versions of them unequippable. But wouldn't that frustrate a whole part of the game - finding and using loot - that most people love?

    I for one would love to have something like that as that would open new roleplaying possibilities. Not to mention I found that finding and using the same loot for Kensai builds over and over and over again to be quite... monotonous.@AndreaColombo's idea would really refresh that stagnation imho.

    Also, no reason to not make it an optional part. That way all Kensai player bases would be covered.
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  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    edited May 2019
    subtledoctor wrote: »
    But wouldn't choosing a category of weapons to focus in solve that? You won't get the (frankly stupid) to-hit/damage bonuses with other weapons, and you won't be able to specialize in other weapons, so you won't be able to switch between Celestial Fury and Firetooth and Mace of Disruption etc. Choosing to use maces at level 1 will really commit you to maces for the rest of the game. Choice of your focus weapon will pretty radically change the game, forcing you to lean into the strengths and weakness of a single category of weapons out there in the game. It could even make it reasonable to get away from standard tactics, like dual-wielding.

    Honestly, not really. I don't know about others, but that's pretty much a handicap I always roleplayed my Kensai CHARNAMES to begin with. So, to me at least, the only difference would be that the mod makes this decision instead of me.
    subtledoctor wrote: »
    A staff-focused Kensai would be pretty great, and it could actually make good sense.)
    Apropos staffs: wouldn't things like the staff spear and staff mace be strictly speaking off-limits to Kensai either way? Disallowing the use of magical weapons would eliminate that problem quite nicely, too. Yes, they're technically still quarterstaffs. But fluff wise they are weapons that change into a spear and mace respectively on command.

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