Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

[Bug] Damage stats in inventory and record screens

The damage stats displayed in the inventory and record screens are wrong. For instance, Frostreaver +3 deals 1d8+3 slashing damage, 1 cold damage and 1 acid damage, i. e., it deals 1d8 +5 or 6-13 damage. However, the damage stat ignores the cold and acid damage, it only takes into account the slashing damage. It looks like this happens with all the weapons that combine several types of damage, one of the damage types are displayed and the others are ignored.

Is there any mod that fixes this? If not, I could try it myself, would it be very difficult to write a fix?

Comments

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,595
    edited May 17
    they are not wrong, they show only the physical damage, that is the damage that has a roll on it.
    or better they can be wrong if a kensai is using kai or a cleric is under RM, then only the maximum damage should have been displayed.
    the elemental or poison damage added to some weapons is a different type of damage as can be not effective against a creature immune to it (ie fire damage against a red dragon) and is not blocked if stoneskin is on, passes trough it.

    as in the description of every weapon is clearly stated if, which type and which amount of elemental/poison damage is done right now the information on the screen is working properly.
    in your example of frostreaver it will show the physical damage, that is 1d8+3, but also + str bonus and + items and proficiency bonus, and tells which factors affect that value, then the elemental damage can be added by the player if he is trying to hit a not immune to that damage creature.

    the displayed values of minimum and maximum physical damage are useful to quickly compare 2 weapons, and is a better way then displaying the average damage, that does not give information on the spread the damage can have, for a certain user. and the fact that elemental damage, that for some weapons is fixed and for others has his own roll, is not considered, make the information more useful as it is easier to add the elemental damage the creature is not immune at to the given values then to subtract it.
    take as example spectral brand, 1d8 + 5 + 1d6 cold, should be the minimum value (without considering for the example str and other boosts to the physical damage) 1 + 5 +1 =7 and the maximum 8 +5 +6 =15 or should the minimum one only 1 +5 =6 as it is the minimum one if the enemy is resistant to cold? in that case 2 different rolls are used, one for physical and one for elemental dmg, the given values would have been less useful if also the elemental damage would be considered.

    to have a real information about the weapon effectiveness used by a toon other factors have to be considered, his thac0 with that weapon and the ac of the one he is trying to hit and his apr, the displayed values are only useful to quickly determine the range of damage a hit will do if successful before the elemental damage is added, without the need to check all the factors, str, proficiency and items, is not a way to know how much damage will the weapon really do in the hands of that toon, thing that depends on how many attacks he has with it and how often he will hit.

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 698
    I created this thread after spending one hour trying to compare the Shortbow of Gesen with a few other bows. The way the game displays damage, those comparisons are a nightmare. For the shortbow of Gesen the damage displayed is just 2-2, when it is actually 2 + 1d8, i. e., 3-10. That means the game displays an amount of damage three times smaller than the real one. According to the game, any normal shorbow shooting normal arrows deals more damage (1-6) than the Shortbow of Gesen. Not a very useful comparison.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    they show only the physical damage, that is the damage that has a roll on it.
    That is not necessarily correct. The Shortbow of Gesen, for instance, works just the opposite way: It is the elemental damage (1d8 electrical) the one with a die roll.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    the elemental or poison damage added to some weapons is a different type of damage as can be not effective against a creature immune to it
    All kinds of damage are ineffective against certain creatures. Mustard jellies are immune to piercing. Clay golems are immune to everything except crushing. Etc. If the game followed that idea, it wouldn't display any damage at all, elemental or otherwise.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    the elemental damage can be added by the player
    Everything can be done by the player, of course, but then it's no longer a computer game, it's a pen and paper game. The whole point of playing computer RPGs is that they do for you all the tedious calculations.
    It's specially confusing if the game adds up some parts of the damage, but it skips others, and it doesn't even tell you what parts it's skipping or why.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    the displayed values of minimum and maximum physical damage are useful to quickly compare 2 weapons
    Not very useful when half of the damage dealt by one (or both) of the weapons is ignored.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    take as example spectral brand, 1d8 + 5 + 1d6 cold, should be the minimum value (without considering for the example str and other boosts to the physical damage) 1 + 5 +1 =7 and the maximum 8 +5 +6 =15 or should the minimum one only 1 +5 =6 as it is the minimum one if the enemy is resistant to cold? in that case 2 different rolls are used, one for physical and one for elemental dmg, the given values would have been less useful if also the elemental damage would be considered.
    All the comparisons are more useful when the elemental damage is considered. Creatures immune to cold (or to any kind of damage) are the exception, not the rule. The most useful comparison is the one that applies to most creatures, and that is a comparison that includes all types of damage.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    to have a real information about the weapon effectiveness used by a toon other factors have to be considered, his thac0 with that weapon and the ac of the one he is trying to hit and his apr, the displayed values are only useful to quickly determine the range of damage a hit will do if successful before the elemental damage is added, without the need to check all the factors, str, proficiency and items, is not a way to know how much damage will the weapon really do in the hands of that toon, thing that depends on how many attacks he has with it and how often he will hit.
    Actually, the displayed value for damage does include strength, proficiency and item effects that alter damage. That's why it doesn't make sense to exclude elemental damage, because the whole point of this stat is to add up all the damage dealt with one hit.

    gorgonzola
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,953
    It displays only the damage dealt by the weapon, not any on-hit effects, from any source (even the weapon itself). All modifiers in that list affect the damage dealt by the weapon.

    There are still some bugs that result in the displayed amount being incorrect:
    • modifiers present when they are not in use
    • modifiers not present because they are not supported by the UI (mod-only content op285)

    One of the v2.[0-3] patches added a damage display for weapons with disabled weapon damage - using instead the first damage opcode listed in the weapon ability (See "The Snow Maiden's Reaver" in IWDEE). Though it still incorrectly lists other modifiers that are not used in this case.

    gorgonzolaAlonso
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 698
    edited May 20
    kjeron wrote: »
    It displays only the damage dealt by the weapon, not any on-hit effects
    It doesn't really display all the damage dealt by the weapon, it only displays a part of it. What are on-hit effects?

    Post edited by Alonso on
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,953
    Alonso wrote: »
    kjeron wrote: »
    It displays only the damage dealt by the weapon, not any on-hit effects
    It doesn't really display all the damage dealt by the weapon, it only displays a part of it. What are on-hit effects?
    On-hit effect: any effect other than the base weapon damage that is triggered by hitting with the weapon. That includes secondary damage effects, even if they come from the weapon itself.

    Another way to look at it - All damage listed in the inventory will be included in the critical hit damage calculation - though not all damage included in the critical hit damage calculation is listed in the inventory, particularly conditional modifiers. Unless the weapon damage is disabled, in which case it will instead list the first on-hit damage effect applied by the weapon, if it has one.

    JuliusBorisovgorgonzola
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 698
    kjeron wrote: »
    Alonso wrote: »
    On-hit effect: any effect other than the base weapon damage that is triggered by hitting with the weapon. That includes secondary damage effects, even if they come from the weapon itself.
    OK, so what is the base weapon damage?

    And why do all this funny calculations instead of simply using the damage stat of a weapon to display the damage dealt by that weapon?

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,953
    Alonso wrote: »
    OK, so what is the base weapon damage?
    With few exceptions, it's only what's before this comma, even if the damage listed after it is physical (Arrow of Piercing, Backbiter +4):
    bw0mdgs8e8wh.png
    Those main exceptions are weapons with disabled base damage (The Snow Maiden's Reaver and Void Weapons from SoD), the notice being that the only damage listed for them isn't physical.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,127
    edited May 27
    My main takeaway from this stuff (this isn't the first complaint about the new stat displays in the EEs) is that it is a mistake to try to show this information at all. It's too complex, and too hard for the engine to extract numbers from added effects, and there are too many exceptions.

    It was simpler back when you compared weapon damage by reading the descriptions. (And that's what I recommend @Alonso do.)

    kjeronStromael
  • StromaelStromael Member Posts: 109
    Agreed with preferring the old displays, but commenting to express appreciation for the subjunctive use, @subtledoctor. :wink:

    Grond0subtledoctor
  • lefreutlefreut Member Posts: 1,413
    My main takeaway from this stuff (this isn't the first complaint about the new stat displays in the EEs) is that it is a mistake to try to show this information at all. It's too complex, and too hard for the engine to extract numbers from added effects, and there are too many exceptions.

    Well the engine already handles all these. I don't see why it's hard to extract the numbers and expose them to the UI.
    It was simpler back when you compared weapon damage by reading the descriptions. (And that's what I recommend @Alonso do.)

    It works, but it's tedious as you can't open the description side by side to compare them.

    Alonso
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,127
    lefreut wrote: »
    Well the engine already handles all these. I don't see why it's hard to extract the numbers and expose them to the UI.

    Added on-hit effects (what Alonso is complaining about for being omitted) are just too variable. Some only have a % chance to occur; some might be level dependent; some might depend on characteristics of the target. What should be displayed if you are dual-wielding the Club of Detonation and the Flame Tongue?

    Only displaying the base weapon damage is a reasonable compromise, sure. But it doesn't give you a full picture for quick comparison, and it breaks down completely in cases where the added effects are more important than the base damage, like with the Bow of Gesen.

  • lefreutlefreut Member Posts: 1,413
    edited May 28
    Some only have a % chance to occur

    You can compute an average.
    some might be level dependent

    The game knows your level so it can compute the correct value.
    some might depend on characteristics of the target.

    This one is the hard one.
    What should be displayed if you are dual-wielding the Club of Detonation and the Flame Tongue?

    The game splits the information between main and off-hand.
    Only displaying the base weapon damage is a reasonable compromise, sure. But it doesn't give you a full picture for quick comparison, and it breaks down completely in cases where the added effects are more important than the base damage, like with the Bow of Gesen.

    Yes there are extreme cases where you can't calculate an accurate weapon damage, but my point is that there are cases that could be improved where the game should be able to give you a correct value (like the Bow of Gesen) or at least a better value than what is shown right now.

    Alonso
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,127
    edited May 28
    lefreut wrote: »
    Some only have a % chance to occur

    You can compute an average.

    That honestly sounds [del]terrible[/del] (sorry, overstated that) not preferable.
    lefreut wrote: »
    What should be displayed if you are dual-wielding the Club of Detonation and the Flame Tongue?

    The game splits the information between main and off-hand.

    That wasn't the point of me mentioning those weapons? One of them has a small chance to do extra elemental damage (which may or may not be resisted by some targets) and a smaller chance to do extra damage, but not base weapon damage, to individuals around the target; and the other weapon does different amounts of damage to four different categories of targets.

    If the choice is between 1) trying to compute and display a value that tries to encompass that, but will almost certainly be inaccurate (I consider a pro-rated number based on a % chance to be inaccurate), and 2) displaying the base weapon damage and adding a line for "plus a possibly complicated amount of extra damage, see description" ... I'd prefer #2.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
Sign In or Register to comment.