I know that this point has been made here before: Did humans invent religion when we became conscious, because we can't bear the thought that it ends?
I think that my answer is probably: Yes.
i think that this is the reason why most of the people that believe in a religion does it.
but possibly it is not the reason why religion was invented.
usually religions are invented, or start from, people that has some mystic experience or some degree of enlightenment. then they become other things, opium of peoples, prisons, reasons to divide and make wars in the name of god, tools to keep the people quiet and compliant to the powers, whimsicalities for the theologians and so on.
and people join religions because they are afraid of the only thing that is really sure, the fact that they will die, or for other silly reasons.
but i think that every religion in the moment that it begin to exist, before the "religion managers" transform them into something other, is a possible path toward enlightenment, towards a direct knowledge.
But that's probably possible without religion, too.
it is surely possible as who had the experience often if not always came before the religion that was originated by his talking about his experience. and there is also people that claim that they had the experience without following the path of a specific religion.
it is possible because a religion, at least in its aspect that deal with transcendence, is only a method, the experience is the result, and the result can be obtained with different methods or even without a specific method.
there is a really important difference between this relationship of method and result and what happens in other cases. if we take a chemical reaction following a method we always get a result, if we don't follow it we can get completely different results.
with religion and mystical experience following a method don't give every time the result, that is why christians talk about the grace, hindu stress about the importance to have a guru and in almost every religion some external factor is needed.
and this external factor can really appear as casual and not related to the quest sometimes, like in the zen novel about banzan.
he, a researcher that had never been able to attain enlightenment, one day went to the market place and asked to the fish seller "give me the best fish in your shop", the shop keeper answered "in my shop every fish is the best one" and suddenly banzan attained the enlightenment he was not able to attain with all his method and practice.
as the way of thinking that uses words and logic can not quit itself the ego can not kill himself to reveal the real self, what is behind it. just as a person can not be at the same time the thief and the policeman that arrest the thief...
by the way to talk about killing the ego is not correct at a higher level of understanding, enlightened people still have ego and verbal thinking, the only thing that has to be killed is the identification of ourselves with the ego and the verbal thinking, once they are recognized for what they really are, tools, and what is behind them is seen and recognized the change happens.
and the change is not to be something different from before, as what is behind was always there, is more a change of perspective then becoming something other.
I guess I should have defined what I mean by consciousness. I don't doubt.............
What I meant was the capability of conscious thought, in the sense that we analyze our options, think about our thoughts, reflect on decisions that we make or have made, and consider abstract ideas that have nothing to do with the actual physical situation that we're in.
i love dogs and animals in general, and usually they love me also.
so let me tell you of the dog of a friend of mine that was not allowed to live in the house but had to live in the garden. once that dog had a bed injury at the leg and so was allowed to live in the house until it had recovered. once my friend come back to the house at an unusual time of the day, when he was normally at the work place. the dog was so happy that stared to jump and do the things that dogs do when they are happy and want to demonstrate their happiness and devotion to their owner.
then suddenly realized that its trick was revealed and started to limp again, but it was too late...
that dog had analyzed its options and to decide to fool the owner is an abstract idea that need some form of thinking.
but is true, as far as we know all the animals, with maybe some exceptions like the dolphins, lack of the thinking power a human has, the verbal language give us a huge advantage on them and allows us things that for them are impossible.
even if there are other forms of thinking, i was conscious way before i was able to speak or understand the language i use for thinking. and so lucky that i have memories of that time.
but if you watch a baby that is still learning how to talk you will notice that he can think way more than what his rudimentary knowledge of the language should allow.
i would say that to be conscious and to have a powerful mind able to use language and logic and to perform really complicated abstract forms of thinking are 2 different things.
@FinneousPJ (we didn't agree on most things, but I wish him well) had asked me before how I compartmentalize my conflicting thoughts about that.
That's a very good question, and I haven't been able to answer it yet. I can only say that cognitive dissonance is an unpleasant experience, and my mind is probably trying to protect itself, even as I'm observing it.
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As to my conflicting thoughts about faith, religion, Christianity... it's probably difficult to understand for both atheists and religious people why I'm making a problem out of it, when the answer in either of these directions would be so easy. Only, it's not.
your being a lawful good paladin and also your being a german, so using a very precise but somehow not forgiving language as a tool to think, make your position not easy.
(it is surprising how the language has a so great influence on how each people is, is certainly not the only factor, but it is a very relevant one. i can tell you more about if you are interested, but it is quite OT)
there is surely a cognitive dissonance in you but as you tell is self protection.
and this is fine, as without that protection things can get very harsh for a person like you.
don't rush, no one is running behind you to chase you, take your time.
and never forget that you are following the christian path, the path of love, when love will grow in you so strong that can not be shaken then love will be your protection, and your cognitive dissonance will end.
to try to do it too soon, for you, for the way you are, can be very dangerous, each person is different and the perils are different for each one of us.
this is something that you, maybe at an instinctive level, already perfectly know.
maybe telling this i can help you a little.
@Arvia and @gorgonzola , I've read all your thoughts in the past few posts, and I appreciate them very much. I wish I had some guru-like wise thing to say that could bring you comfort and peace, and make everything okay. But I don't.
Every person must find their own path and their own way. For some reason, a line from a Madonna song, of all things, just came into my head. "Life is a mystery. Everyone must stand alone."
For me, studying Buddhist philosophy, such as the "noble truths" that begin with "life is suffering", gave me to tools to come to a state of peace and acceptance of the fact that my consciousness would come to an end some day. I came to see being conscious not as something to cling to, but as something that actually causes me to suffer daily. So, the end of it will actually be a good thing. I'm only 53, and I'm already kind of sick and tired of everything. I already think that having to be conscious and to live and to work and to strive forever without end would be Hell.
That doesn't mean I'm in a hurry to get the End. It's just that I'm not afraid of it anymore, and I actually look forward to it somewhat, in a philosophical way.
There's a German existential philosopher, Schopenhauer, who taught that peace and contentment come from actively willing the only thing that will surely happen, the thing that will guarantee that we will get our wish and the desire for it will be fulfilled. Our own death.
To many people, that is all just going to sound really morbid, pessimistic and defeatist. When I was younger, it sounded that way to me, too. But I changed through my life experiences, and somewhere along my way, there was a fundamental transformation in my entire way of looking at and perceiving consciousness and life. When I try to put it into words, it sounds like I should be miserable. But paradoxically, the opposite is true. I feel great peace, contentment, and joy. When I overcame fear and guilt, I became free to truly relish and experience every moment of my life that I have left, to the maximum.
There's an old song by American singer Peggy Lee called "Is That All There Is?" The singer captures in narrative and music exactly what I learned. "Is that all there is to a fire? Is that all there is to a circus? Is that all there is to love? Is that all there is? If that's all there is, then let's keep dancing. Let's break out the booze, and have a ball!"
@gorgonzola , you're right, nobody is rushing me, and things will fall into place with time.
You know, my brother's dog did a similar thing once, when he had hurt his paw. He limped and got so much attention and love, and then somebody threw a stick and he ran after it, and then he stopped because he remembered that he was supposed to be limping.
And he also came to me to say goodbye when he was so sick that they had to... what is the correct expression? "to put him down" sounds so heartless, and I also think he knew what was going to happen. I think writing "what makes us different from animals" was clumsy, because it was not what I meant, it gives a wrong impression of how I see animals. I was trying to define "consciousness", and didn't do it well.
Every person must find their own path and their own way.
so true...
and i would add also their own pace, there is a time for rushing, and if you don't rush you can loose something very important, but most of the times the rushing becomes the most important obstacle to progress.
i feel that behind the continuous yapping of the mind everyone knows which are the path and time good for him, things that can change with time. at least it is so for me.
some people like to talk about synchronicity, about how things sometimes seem to happen in the right order for no apparent reason.
an example of that can be
Interesting that you quote that Madonna song. It was on the radio today when I was driving and thinking about all those things.
an other example is that i wrote about dolphins today and right now i found, without searching for it, i was looking a video about a man that fly with an ultralight plane in formation with the birds, this really interesting video about dolphins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ5dRyyHwfM
Is "America" a religion?
YouTuber Religion for Breakfast is tackling that question in a new series. He admits that there's many definitions of "religion", so he focusing on one particular definition that doesn't include belief in the supernatural. He'll be focusing on beliefs, iconography, and other aspects in future episodes.
Comments
i think that this is the reason why most of the people that believe in a religion does it.
but possibly it is not the reason why religion was invented.
usually religions are invented, or start from, people that has some mystic experience or some degree of enlightenment. then they become other things, opium of peoples, prisons, reasons to divide and make wars in the name of god, tools to keep the people quiet and compliant to the powers, whimsicalities for the theologians and so on.
and people join religions because they are afraid of the only thing that is really sure, the fact that they will die, or for other silly reasons.
but i think that every religion in the moment that it begin to exist, before the "religion managers" transform them into something other, is a possible path toward enlightenment, towards a direct knowledge.
it is possible because a religion, at least in its aspect that deal with transcendence, is only a method, the experience is the result, and the result can be obtained with different methods or even without a specific method.
there is a really important difference between this relationship of method and result and what happens in other cases. if we take a chemical reaction following a method we always get a result, if we don't follow it we can get completely different results.
with religion and mystical experience following a method don't give every time the result, that is why christians talk about the grace, hindu stress about the importance to have a guru and in almost every religion some external factor is needed.
and this external factor can really appear as casual and not related to the quest sometimes, like in the zen novel about banzan.
he, a researcher that had never been able to attain enlightenment, one day went to the market place and asked to the fish seller "give me the best fish in your shop", the shop keeper answered "in my shop every fish is the best one" and suddenly banzan attained the enlightenment he was not able to attain with all his method and practice.
as the way of thinking that uses words and logic can not quit itself the ego can not kill himself to reveal the real self, what is behind it. just as a person can not be at the same time the thief and the policeman that arrest the thief...
by the way to talk about killing the ego is not correct at a higher level of understanding, enlightened people still have ego and verbal thinking, the only thing that has to be killed is the identification of ourselves with the ego and the verbal thinking, once they are recognized for what they really are, tools, and what is behind them is seen and recognized the change happens.
and the change is not to be something different from before, as what is behind was always there, is more a change of perspective then becoming something other.
i love dogs and animals in general, and usually they love me also.
so let me tell you of the dog of a friend of mine that was not allowed to live in the house but had to live in the garden. once that dog had a bed injury at the leg and so was allowed to live in the house until it had recovered. once my friend come back to the house at an unusual time of the day, when he was normally at the work place. the dog was so happy that stared to jump and do the things that dogs do when they are happy and want to demonstrate their happiness and devotion to their owner.
then suddenly realized that its trick was revealed and started to limp again, but it was too late...
that dog had analyzed its options and to decide to fool the owner is an abstract idea that need some form of thinking.
but is true, as far as we know all the animals, with maybe some exceptions like the dolphins, lack of the thinking power a human has, the verbal language give us a huge advantage on them and allows us things that for them are impossible.
even if there are other forms of thinking, i was conscious way before i was able to speak or understand the language i use for thinking. and so lucky that i have memories of that time.
but if you watch a baby that is still learning how to talk you will notice that he can think way more than what his rudimentary knowledge of the language should allow.
i would say that to be conscious and to have a powerful mind able to use language and logic and to perform really complicated abstract forms of thinking are 2 different things.
your being a lawful good paladin and also your being a german, so using a very precise but somehow not forgiving language as a tool to think, make your position not easy.
(it is surprising how the language has a so great influence on how each people is, is certainly not the only factor, but it is a very relevant one. i can tell you more about if you are interested, but it is quite OT)
there is surely a cognitive dissonance in you but as you tell is self protection.
and this is fine, as without that protection things can get very harsh for a person like you.
don't rush, no one is running behind you to chase you, take your time.
and never forget that you are following the christian path, the path of love, when love will grow in you so strong that can not be shaken then love will be your protection, and your cognitive dissonance will end.
to try to do it too soon, for you, for the way you are, can be very dangerous, each person is different and the perils are different for each one of us.
this is something that you, maybe at an instinctive level, already perfectly know.
maybe telling this i can help you a little.
Every person must find their own path and their own way. For some reason, a line from a Madonna song, of all things, just came into my head. "Life is a mystery. Everyone must stand alone."
For me, studying Buddhist philosophy, such as the "noble truths" that begin with "life is suffering", gave me to tools to come to a state of peace and acceptance of the fact that my consciousness would come to an end some day. I came to see being conscious not as something to cling to, but as something that actually causes me to suffer daily. So, the end of it will actually be a good thing. I'm only 53, and I'm already kind of sick and tired of everything. I already think that having to be conscious and to live and to work and to strive forever without end would be Hell.
That doesn't mean I'm in a hurry to get the End. It's just that I'm not afraid of it anymore, and I actually look forward to it somewhat, in a philosophical way.
There's a German existential philosopher, Schopenhauer, who taught that peace and contentment come from actively willing the only thing that will surely happen, the thing that will guarantee that we will get our wish and the desire for it will be fulfilled. Our own death.
To many people, that is all just going to sound really morbid, pessimistic and defeatist. When I was younger, it sounded that way to me, too. But I changed through my life experiences, and somewhere along my way, there was a fundamental transformation in my entire way of looking at and perceiving consciousness and life. When I try to put it into words, it sounds like I should be miserable. But paradoxically, the opposite is true. I feel great peace, contentment, and joy. When I overcame fear and guilt, I became free to truly relish and experience every moment of my life that I have left, to the maximum.
There's an old song by American singer Peggy Lee called "Is That All There Is?" The singer captures in narrative and music exactly what I learned. "Is that all there is to a fire? Is that all there is to a circus? Is that all there is to love? Is that all there is? If that's all there is, then let's keep dancing. Let's break out the booze, and have a ball!"
You know, my brother's dog did a similar thing once, when he had hurt his paw. He limped and got so much attention and love, and then somebody threw a stick and he ran after it, and then he stopped because he remembered that he was supposed to be limping.
And he also came to me to say goodbye when he was so sick that they had to... what is the correct expression? "to put him down" sounds so heartless, and I also think he knew what was going to happen. I think writing "what makes us different from animals" was clumsy, because it was not what I meant, it gives a wrong impression of how I see animals. I was trying to define "consciousness", and didn't do it well.
and i would add also their own pace, there is a time for rushing, and if you don't rush you can loose something very important, but most of the times the rushing becomes the most important obstacle to progress.
i feel that behind the continuous yapping of the mind everyone knows which are the path and time good for him, things that can change with time. at least it is so for me.
an example of that can be an other example is that i wrote about dolphins today and right now i found, without searching for it, i was looking a video about a man that fly with an ultralight plane in formation with the birds, this really interesting video about dolphins.
Is "America" a religion?
YouTuber Religion for Breakfast is tackling that question in a new series. He admits that there's many definitions of "religion", so he focusing on one particular definition that doesn't include belief in the supernatural. He'll be focusing on beliefs, iconography, and other aspects in future episodes.