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The Religion and Philosophy Thread

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Comments

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,517
    @Arvia , too many people quoting me at the same time, i am constantly ninjaed :smiley:
    i answer to you first as you are a fellow paladin, even if we probably serve different, but good deities.

    i agree with almost what you told but:

    i did not tell "We should address other, more important things" and i never meant it as implicit. i told that we have so many more relevant things to go bersek for that is better to don't go bersek for it, less then 50 people in europe die for it every year while thousands die for other causes that also could be addressed.
    and immediately after i also told, in bold and italic to give it more emphasis
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    and this is not in any way a reason to don't vaccine people or to don't try to avoid that 35 deaths if is possible to avoid them.
    we should address those other and that thing if we would be up to my idea of what the himan race should be.
    anyway given your profession i understand why you tend to go bersek for that issue more then for other ones that are more important (cause a much larger fatality rate)

    i also want a future like the one dr maccoy tells about, and i appreciate your position about the new tools the medicine has now, or is going to have in the next future. sadly i don't believe that the new knowledge will be used in a wise and cautious way like you seem to advocate. and the fact that altering the human genoma is completely different in its effect and consequences from using a drug that has still not discovered negative effects as the genetic modification is transmitted to the next generations and will spread among humanity is obvious to you, but has to be told as it can not be so obvious for every reader of this thread. right now, if it is not a fake new, 2 gemini sisters are in gesture in china, with a modified gene, outside every official research project, i have reasons to be worried.
    sadly star trek seems to me too optimistic not only on a ftl technology, but also on the use the humanity do of its knowledge.

    now i run to read your mp!

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,170
    @gorgonzola, You've raised a few good counterpoints. I think I understand better where you're coming from now.

    Sometimes it can be a little hard to understand you clearly, because of lack of capitalization and run-on sentence structure in your posts. I don't mean to criticize you for that, but rather just to explain why I often misunderstand some of the things you type. I apologize for that.

    FinneousPJgorgonzola
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 453
    @gorgonzola, I think I'm not prioritizing things because of my profession or counting the number of deaths caused by measles vs malnutrition or anything.
    I'm saying I prioritize what can be solved easily (and is not, because of superstition) vs what doesn't (yet) have a simple, fast solution.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,517
    @FinneousPJ i was convinced that some times ago you had qualified yourself as an her in an other topic, not the gender poll, i am talking of something of maybe 1 or 2 years ago, but probably i am confusing you with an other person. i apologize again.

    i will probably will answer to the other thing you told later,now i have other rl things to do.

    FinneousPJ
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,517
    @BelgarathMTH My lack of capitalization is due to the fact that i am very slow at typing, probably is related to a form of dyslexia i suffer. I have to continuously edit my posts cause the fingers seem to press the keys in an inverted order or skip some keys, so whatever make me press less keys helps me in the task.
    As now i know that it can create problems in who read i will try to avoid it in the future. (I just typed ututre instead of future..., the last of at least 10 errors writing this short post :D )

    FinneousPJBelgarathMTHArvia
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    edited April 21
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    @FinneousPJ i was convinced that some times ago you had qualified yourself as an her in an other topic, not the gender poll, i am talking of something of maybe 1 or 2 years ago, but probably i am confusing you with an other person. i apologize again.

    i will probably will answer to the other thing you told later,now i have other rl things to do.

    It's quite alright.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    @BelgarathMTH My lack of capitalization is due to the fact that i am very slow at typing, probably is related to a form of dyslexia i suffer. I have to continuously edit my posts cause the fingers seem to press the keys in an inverted order or skip some keys, so whatever make me press less keys helps me in the task.
    As now i know that it can create problems in who read i will try to avoid it in the future. (I just typed ututre instead of future..., the last of at least 10 errors writing this short post :D )

    At least it helps to know it's not out of laziness or disrespect your posts are hard to read :)

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,025
    edited April 22
    Meanwhile in the world:
    The first major donation to Notre-Dame came from Francois-Henri Pinault, the billionaire head of luxury goods group Kering that owns fashion brands Gucci and Saint Laurent.
    Pinault (...) pledged 100 million euros ($113 million) as the blaze was still raging (...).
    Hours later, his great rival Bernard Arnault, France’s richest man and the head of Louis Vuitton owner LVMH, announced he was donating 200 million euros, moved by the alarming pictures on TV, according to a group spokesman. (...)
    The Bettencourt-Meyer family, the largest shareholder in L’Oreal, followed suit a while later, pledging a combined 200 million euros alongside the global cosmetics group.
    Source - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-notredame-donations/as-notre-dame-money-rolls-in-some-eyebrows-raised-over-rush-of-funds-idUSKCN1RT28Q

    In other news:
    Presidential cultural heritage envoy Stephane Bern told broadcaster France-Info on Wednesday that 880 million euros (USD $995 million) has been raised in just a day and a half since the fire. Contributions came from near and far, rich and poor – from Apple and magnates who own L’Oreal, Chanel and Dior, to Catholic parishioners and others from small towns and cities around France and the world.
    Source - https://globalnews.ca/news/5175990/notre-dame-cathedral-money-raised-rebuild/

    Even if we were to assume that Pinault, Arnault and L'Oreal were the only big donators (and, AFAIK, they are not), it still would mean that more than half (!) of donations came from the richest. They were apparently able to quickly dispose of enormous sums of money. The decided to spend that money on a church - in the world that still has problem of food and water shortages, and where climate change make at least shake foundations of civilizations.
    I am simply amazed how stupid and cruel capitalism is in its irrationality of alocating and redistributing money.

    EDIT: Hey, my 1000th post! :D

    Post edited by Artona on
    mlnevesegorgonzolaSon_of_ImoenSkatan
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,213
    edited April 22
    @Artona and that's why no sane alien will ever contact humanity....

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,517
    edited April 23
    Artona wrote: »
    it still would mean that more than half (!) of donations came from the richest.
    It has to ber told that the 5% of the people own much more then 50% of the global wealth (money and goods), and the trend to have almost all in the hands of very few is constantly increasing, in this world based on debt and payment plans.

    Right now it is more on the 95% side then the 50% side, and i see a possible future when all the humanity will be enslaved by few that own all, like now is already happening in some diamond mines in Brazil, where the workers spend more to live then how they earn so they can never leave the mine work.
    As long as the few very rich people have control of the media, give to the population the illusion to be rich, even if the balance of many is negative, distract us with gossip, sports and news that are blow up and then completely forgotten the next month and divide us (and to belong to different religions is a perfect reason to get divided) only very few will fight against that.

    Nothing new under the sun, the Romans used to say: "divide et impera" (split and rule) and that "panem et circenses" (bread and circus) is what is needed to keep the people quiet and compliant.

    If it is true that the 50% of what is given for the Notre Dame reconstruction i would say that it is only a proof of how the richest people are stingy, it had to be like the 90%...

    By the way i believe that the fact that Notre Dame is a church is only accidental, if it would have happened to let's say the Colosseum, that is not related to a religion, i think that the same would have happened.
    I think that the whole Notre Dame thing belongs to the politics thread more then to this one.
    and i find VERY hard to capitalize my posts, but i will do it from now on, if they are long enough to create reading problems if not capitalized :D

    BelgarathMTHFinneousPJ
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,231
    edited April 24
    @gorgonzola, You make a good point, as you often do. I appreciate very much your trying to improve your typing so we can understand you better. If you can, look out for using commas to separate sentences. I now understand why you are doing that. It's hard for you to type a period and then a new capital letter. But, this post is such an improvement, you already are coming across as a whole different person, one much more to be respected in online posts. :)

    An example from the above:
    "By the way i believe that the fact that Notre Dame is a church is only accidental, if it would have happened to let's say the Colosseum, that is not related to a religion, i think that the same would have happened.
    I think that the whole Notre Dame thing belongs to the politics thread more then to this one",

    would have been much easier to understand as:
    "By the way, I believe that the fact that Notre Dame is a church is only accidental. If it would have happened that, let's say, the Colosseum, that is not related to a religion (had burned down), I think that the same thing would have happened. I think that the whole Notre Dame thing belongs to the politics thread more than to this one."

    I apologize if I am coming across as a grammar Nazi, or if I am insulting you or making you feel bad in any way. A very big part of me is an English teacher. Good English teachers, just as good music teachers, are not out to make you feel bad, or to criticize you to death. We just want to help you be understood better, or in music, to play better.

    @gorgonzola

    I'm pretty well-versed in the English language too so I have to concur with @BelgarathMTH that proper sentence structure does help in understanding your viewpoints. I have to admit I'm pretty much used to your posts now but others may not be so it may help them to understand where you're coming from.

    Having said that, I'd personally rather you feel comfortable posting your views though, so if it's a problem for you, don't worry about it overmuch...

    BelgarathMTHArviagorgonzola
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,213
    edited April 24
    In an international forum when in doubt always ask.. sometimes when you think in your own language and just directly translate it may sound rude because the structural differences between languages may lead to wierd constructs or not translate well at all . Translating anyhting is a work of interpretation more than anything else. Cultural differences may shock people from other countries as well... but let's not entirely derail the thread discussing linguistics :)

    Balrog99Arviagorgonzola
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    On Notre Dame: the catholic church is so rich and evil I would like to see them pay for everything and more.

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,025
    On Notre Dame: I'm not opposing rebuilding it per se. I'm just questioning logic of capitalism that allows rich people accumulate so much wealth, while the world may burn within next 20 years.

    Arviagorgonzola
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,213
    There is no logic... If the world resources were more evenly distributed there would be nobody hungry or without a home. Nobody would have to skip available medical treatment due to cost.

    Human entire economic model is insane and geared toward resource concentration and maintenance of power. There is no thought about the preservation of the human race.

    gorgonzola
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,231
    Artona wrote: »
    On Notre Dame: I'm not opposing rebuilding it per se. I'm just questioning logic of capitalism that allows rich people accumulate so much wealth, while the world may burn within next 20 years.

    What is the logic of not accumulating wealth? I guess everybody is just supposed to spend every penny they make and let the government take care of us if something goes wrong? Oh, and please don't buy into the 'world js going to burn in 20 years malarkey'. The world has been going to end in 20 years every 20 years since I've been born and the world's still here...

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,025
    edited April 24
    @Balrog99 - I'm not "buying" into anything. Climate change is a fact, and I don't consider "well, it was supposed to end in 2012 but it didn't!" as a very strong argument.
    What is the logic of not accumulating wealth? I guess everybody is just supposed to spend every penny they make and let the government take care of us if something goes wrong?

    Not everybody every penny, but unjustly rich and despicable people like Bezos. And others, who gained their fortune by exploitation and misfortune of others.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,170
    edited April 26
    @Arvia , You seem like a kindred spirit to a forum friend of mine. Allow me to introduce you to @Son_of_Imoen . He hasn't been around for a while, so I don't know if he still ever checks these forums. Gosh, I hope he's okay. I think you could really help him to know he's not alone in how he feels if he could meet you and interact with you here. @Son_of_Imoen , Are you still out there? :)

    BTW, he might be able to give you some insight about how to help your son, as well. He's had some similar problems in his own life. Not the same, but similar.

    mlneveseArviaJuliusBorisov
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 12,930
    @Son_of_Imoen was last active just a couple weeks ago. If you really want to pester him, @BelgarathMTH, you can send a PM and it should give an email notification!

    BelgarathMTHmlnevese
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,517
    The problem for me is questions like "why do people still go on far away vacations with aeroplanes while climate change is such an obvious threat for years now", "why do people leading companies decide to make money at the expense of the worker's rights and welfare, the environment and why are things made to be thrown away" and "why do people use criminal activities to cheat people of money". In a world that I would understand, products are made to last and made with the health of the workers and the environment foremost in the mind, people would go on holiday in the near region only and you'd only need one simple password for all your accounts to identify yourself as no-one would be out to log-in as if (s)he where you.

    Reading this make me wander if is really you that have "mental disease" problems (i don't know if the term is appropriate for you due to my bad english knowledge) or is the whole humanity that is mental diseased and you are one of the few sane people out there...




    semiticgodBelgarathMTHArvia
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 453
    edited May 2
    @Son_of_Imoen , I agree with @gorgonzola. Of course you were absolutely right to look for help because of your depression, but please tell me you didn't qualify for the diagnosis SAD because of the things you mentioned above. Did they consider that delusional?

    The problem with mental health issues is that there are no lab tests, and diagnoses are constantly shifting and many of them are overlapping. For example, the form of autism that is the extreme, stereotyped form of a nonverbal child rocking in a corner used to be considered a form of childhood schizophrenia.
    Psychiatrists and their diagnostics manual describe a cluster of symptoms, and if you meet 7 out of 10, for example, you get diagnosis A. But what if you also meet 6 out of 10 criteria for a different diagnosis?
    (I also vividly remember the impact of learning about the 1st Gulf War, having lived in peace and innocence until then, but I'm younger and was in elementary school then and we kids at school mostly worried because we thought that war might come to us, too).

    The other, very important factor to qualify for a diagnosis of mental illness is this: How big is the impact on your life? How much does it keep you from doing things you'd usually do?
    A lot of people check lists of symptoms and think, OMG, I have this and that. No. If you live a "normal" life, it doesn't really matter. But if it keeps you from living the life you would live, it qualifies as an illness.
    (I know I'm stating obvious facts that you probably know. I'm explaining a bit along the way because it's an open discussion and others with less background information might read it, too).

    Depression is a strong enemy (and I recently learned that strong enemies should be shot from a distance, not tanked 😉) and needs treatment, either medication or therapy or both, depending on what helps you most. But what if you have good reason to feel bad? Is a recently widowed depressed, or just sad, with good reason?

    What you describe about your triggers and your weltschmerz and also what you don't have (you don't seem to lack theory of mind or social understanding), it doesn't sound like the forms of autism spectrum that I've encountered, but I'm not a psychiatrist (only know the basics you learn in medical school, and of course have read a lot of literature about it lately), and my personal experience is very limited.

    You do sound like what they nowadays call "highly sensitive person", but that's still not a very scientific term and much debated where the borders are between these personality traits and a kind of mental illness, or it being the "normal" end of the autism spectrum. Though even autism is not necessarily considered mental illness by many, but rather kind of running on a different operating system. It's just that our society is not meant for people who think and feel differently.

    The world that you imagine as one you could understand is one I would like to live in, too, and I can't understand either how the majority of humanity seems to ignore obvious facts. I fail to understand how people could cheat each other and make money on the back of others, exploit others, ignore the consequences of their actions, and still look into their own eyes in the mirror.

    I have pointed out before in this thread that I still haven't given up on believing in or rather hoping for a higher purpose to our human existence. It's that hope that's keeping me sane, I think.

    (I'm not trying to evangelize here, or trying to find proof if God exists, or insisting that I'm right. I'm just explaining how I feel and what helps me to carry on).

    I have a sheet of paper with 1 Corinthians 13 pinned to the wall next to my bed, so that I see it when I wake up and remember why I'm doing all this and what kind of person I want to be. I've put it in spoiler tags for those who don't want to read it.
    1 Corinthians 13 New International Version (NIV)
    13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

    4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

    13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    That's the ideal. But at the end of the day, many times, it's Psalm 143 that describes best what I feel like and what I'd like to shout. I used to carry a copy of that, printed on a small card, around me in my pocket, but I lost it. Thank God for the omniscent internet.
    Psalm 143
    A psalm of David.
    1 Lord, hear my prayer,
    listen to my cry for mercy;
    in your faithfulness and righteousness
    come to my relief.
    2 Do not bring your servant into judgment,
    for no one living is righteous before you.
    3 The enemy pursues me,
    he crushes me to the ground;
    he makes me dwell in the darkness
    like those long dead.
    4 So my spirit grows faint within me;
    my heart within me is dismayed.
    5 I remember the days of long ago;
    I meditate on all your works
    and consider what your hands have done.
    6 I spread out my hands to you;
    I thirst for you like a parched land.[a]

    7 Answer me quickly, Lord;
    my spirit fails.
    Do not hide your face from me
    or I will be like those who go down to the pit.
    8 Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love,
    for I have put my trust in you.
    Show me the way I should go,
    for to you I entrust my life.
    9 Rescue me from my enemies, Lord,
    for I hide myself in you.
    10 Teach me to do your will,
    for you are my God;
    may your good Spirit
    lead me on level ground.

    11 For your name’s sake, Lord, preserve my life;
    in your righteousness, bring me out of trouble.
    12 In your unfailing love, silence my enemies;
    destroy all my foes,
    for I am your servant.

    EDIT: Forgot to say that I'm really glad that, based on experience, every evening is followed by another morning.
    Going to sleep now.

    semiticgodgorgonzolaBelgarathMTH
  • Son_of_ImoenSon_of_Imoen Member Posts: 1,730
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    Reading this make me wander if is really you that have "mental disease" problems (i don't know if the term is appropriate for you due to my bad english knowledge) or is the whole humanity that is mental diseased and you are one of the few sane people out there...

    LOL, that's what I sometimes wonder myself as well.

    gorgonzolaSkatan
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