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The Religion and Philosophy Thread

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  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    @Arvia , too many people quoting me at the same time, i am constantly ninjaed :smiley:
    i answer to you first as you are a fellow paladin, even if we probably serve different, but good deities.

    i agree with almost what you told but:

    i did not tell "We should address other, more important things" and i never meant it as implicit. i told that we have so many more relevant things to go bersek for that is better to don't go bersek for it, less then 50 people in europe die for it every year while thousands die for other causes that also could be addressed.
    and immediately after i also told, in bold and italic to give it more emphasis
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    and this is not in any way a reason to don't vaccine people or to don't try to avoid that 35 deaths if is possible to avoid them.
    we should address those other and that thing if we would be up to my idea of what the himan race should be.
    anyway given your profession i understand why you tend to go bersek for that issue more then for other ones that are more important (cause a much larger fatality rate)

    i also want a future like the one dr maccoy tells about, and i appreciate your position about the new tools the medicine has now, or is going to have in the next future. sadly i don't believe that the new knowledge will be used in a wise and cautious way like you seem to advocate. and the fact that altering the human genoma is completely different in its effect and consequences from using a drug that has still not discovered negative effects as the genetic modification is transmitted to the next generations and will spread among humanity is obvious to you, but has to be told as it can not be so obvious for every reader of this thread. right now, if it is not a fake new, 2 gemini sisters are in gesture in china, with a modified gene, outside every official research project, i have reasons to be worried.
    sadly star trek seems to me too optimistic not only on a ftl technology, but also on the use the humanity do of its knowledge.

    now i run to read your mp!
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    @gorgonzola, You've raised a few good counterpoints. I think I understand better where you're coming from now.

    Sometimes it can be a little hard to understand you clearly, because of lack of capitalization and run-on sentence structure in your posts. I don't mean to criticize you for that, but rather just to explain why I often misunderstand some of the things you type. I apologize for that.
    FinneousPJgorgonzola
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 2,101
    @gorgonzola, I think I'm not prioritizing things because of my profession or counting the number of deaths caused by measles vs malnutrition or anything.
    I'm saying I prioritize what can be solved easily (and is not, because of superstition) vs what doesn't (yet) have a simple, fast solution.
    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    @FinneousPJ i was convinced that some times ago you had qualified yourself as an her in an other topic, not the gender poll, i am talking of something of maybe 1 or 2 years ago, but probably i am confusing you with an other person. i apologize again.

    i will probably will answer to the other thing you told later,now i have other rl things to do.
    FinneousPJ
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    @BelgarathMTH My lack of capitalization is due to the fact that i am very slow at typing, probably is related to a form of dyslexia i suffer. I have to continuously edit my posts cause the fingers seem to press the keys in an inverted order or skip some keys, so whatever make me press less keys helps me in the task.
    As now i know that it can create problems in who read i will try to avoid it in the future. (I just typed ututre instead of future..., the last of at least 10 errors writing this short post :D )
    FinneousPJBelgarathMTHArvia
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    edited April 2019
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    @FinneousPJ i was convinced that some times ago you had qualified yourself as an her in an other topic, not the gender poll, i am talking of something of maybe 1 or 2 years ago, but probably i am confusing you with an other person. i apologize again.

    i will probably will answer to the other thing you told later,now i have other rl things to do.

    It's quite alright.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    @BelgarathMTH My lack of capitalization is due to the fact that i am very slow at typing, probably is related to a form of dyslexia i suffer. I have to continuously edit my posts cause the fingers seem to press the keys in an inverted order or skip some keys, so whatever make me press less keys helps me in the task.
    As now i know that it can create problems in who read i will try to avoid it in the future. (I just typed ututre instead of future..., the last of at least 10 errors writing this short post :D )

    At least it helps to know it's not out of laziness or disrespect your posts are hard to read :)
    RAM021
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,077
    edited April 2019
    Meanwhile in the world:
    The first major donation to Notre-Dame came from Francois-Henri Pinault, the billionaire head of luxury goods group Kering that owns fashion brands Gucci and Saint Laurent.
    Pinault (...) pledged 100 million euros ($113 million) as the blaze was still raging (...).
    Hours later, his great rival Bernard Arnault, France’s richest man and the head of Louis Vuitton owner LVMH, announced he was donating 200 million euros, moved by the alarming pictures on TV, according to a group spokesman. (...)
    The Bettencourt-Meyer family, the largest shareholder in L’Oreal, followed suit a while later, pledging a combined 200 million euros alongside the global cosmetics group.
    Source - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-notredame-donations/as-notre-dame-money-rolls-in-some-eyebrows-raised-over-rush-of-funds-idUSKCN1RT28Q

    In other news:
    Presidential cultural heritage envoy Stephane Bern told broadcaster France-Info on Wednesday that 880 million euros (USD $995 million) has been raised in just a day and a half since the fire. Contributions came from near and far, rich and poor – from Apple and magnates who own L’Oreal, Chanel and Dior, to Catholic parishioners and others from small towns and cities around France and the world.
    Source - https://globalnews.ca/news/5175990/notre-dame-cathedral-money-raised-rebuild/

    Even if we were to assume that Pinault, Arnault and L'Oreal were the only big donators (and, AFAIK, they are not), it still would mean that more than half (!) of donations came from the richest. They were apparently able to quickly dispose of enormous sums of money. The decided to spend that money on a church - in the world that still has problem of food and water shortages, and where climate change make at least shake foundations of civilizations.
    I am simply amazed how stupid and cruel capitalism is in its irrationality of alocating and redistributing money.

    EDIT: Hey, my 1000th post! :D
    Post edited by Artona on
    mlnevesegorgonzolaSon_of_ImoenSkatan
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    edited April 2019
    @Artona and that's why no sane alien will ever contact humanity....
    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    edited April 2019
    Artona wrote: »
    it still would mean that more than half (!) of donations came from the richest.
    It has to ber told that the 5% of the people own much more then 50% of the global wealth (money and goods), and the trend to have almost all in the hands of very few is constantly increasing, in this world based on debt and payment plans.

    Right now it is more on the 95% side then the 50% side, and i see a possible future when all the humanity will be enslaved by few that own all, like now is already happening in some diamond mines in Brazil, where the workers spend more to live then how they earn so they can never leave the mine work.
    As long as the few very rich people have control of the media, give to the population the illusion to be rich, even if the balance of many is negative, distract us with gossip, sports and news that are blow up and then completely forgotten the next month and divide us (and to belong to different religions is a perfect reason to get divided) only very few will fight against that.

    Nothing new under the sun, the Romans used to say: "divide et impera" (split and rule) and that "panem et circenses" (bread and circus) is what is needed to keep the people quiet and compliant.

    If it is true that the 50% of what is given for the Notre Dame reconstruction i would say that it is only a proof of how the richest people are stingy, it had to be like the 90%...

    By the way i believe that the fact that Notre Dame is a church is only accidental, if it would have happened to let's say the Colosseum, that is not related to a religion, i think that the same would have happened.
    I think that the whole Notre Dame thing belongs to the politics thread more then to this one.
    and i find VERY hard to capitalize my posts, but i will do it from now on, if they are long enough to create reading problems if not capitalized :D

    BelgarathMTHFinneousPJ
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,366
    edited April 2019
    @gorgonzola, You make a good point, as you often do. I appreciate very much your trying to improve your typing so we can understand you better. If you can, look out for using commas to separate sentences. I now understand why you are doing that. It's hard for you to type a period and then a new capital letter. But, this post is such an improvement, you already are coming across as a whole different person, one much more to be respected in online posts. :)

    An example from the above:
    "By the way i believe that the fact that Notre Dame is a church is only accidental, if it would have happened to let's say the Colosseum, that is not related to a religion, i think that the same would have happened.
    I think that the whole Notre Dame thing belongs to the politics thread more then to this one",

    would have been much easier to understand as:
    "By the way, I believe that the fact that Notre Dame is a church is only accidental. If it would have happened that, let's say, the Colosseum, that is not related to a religion (had burned down), I think that the same thing would have happened. I think that the whole Notre Dame thing belongs to the politics thread more than to this one."

    I apologize if I am coming across as a grammar Nazi, or if I am insulting you or making you feel bad in any way. A very big part of me is an English teacher. Good English teachers, just as good music teachers, are not out to make you feel bad, or to criticize you to death. We just want to help you be understood better, or in music, to play better.

    @gorgonzola

    I'm pretty well-versed in the English language too so I have to concur with @BelgarathMTH that proper sentence structure does help in understanding your viewpoints. I have to admit I'm pretty much used to your posts now but others may not be so it may help them to understand where you're coming from.

    Having said that, I'd personally rather you feel comfortable posting your views though, so if it's a problem for you, don't worry about it overmuch...
    BelgarathMTHArviagorgonzola
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    edited April 2019
    In an international forum when in doubt always ask.. sometimes when you think in your own language and just directly translate it may sound rude because the structural differences between languages may lead to wierd constructs or not translate well at all . Translating anyhting is a work of interpretation more than anything else. Cultural differences may shock people from other countries as well... but let's not entirely derail the thread discussing linguistics :)
    Balrog99Arviagorgonzola
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    On Notre Dame: the catholic church is so rich and evil I would like to see them pay for everything and more.
    RAM021
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,077
    On Notre Dame: I'm not opposing rebuilding it per se. I'm just questioning logic of capitalism that allows rich people accumulate so much wealth, while the world may burn within next 20 years.
    Arviagorgonzola
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    There is no logic... If the world resources were more evenly distributed there would be nobody hungry or without a home. Nobody would have to skip available medical treatment due to cost.

    Human entire economic model is insane and geared toward resource concentration and maintenance of power. There is no thought about the preservation of the human race.
    gorgonzola
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,366
    Artona wrote: »
    On Notre Dame: I'm not opposing rebuilding it per se. I'm just questioning logic of capitalism that allows rich people accumulate so much wealth, while the world may burn within next 20 years.

    What is the logic of not accumulating wealth? I guess everybody is just supposed to spend every penny they make and let the government take care of us if something goes wrong? Oh, and please don't buy into the 'world js going to burn in 20 years malarkey'. The world has been going to end in 20 years every 20 years since I've been born and the world's still here...
    sarevok57
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,077
    edited April 2019
    @Balrog99 - I'm not "buying" into anything. Climate change is a fact, and I don't consider "well, it was supposed to end in 2012 but it didn't!" as a very strong argument.
    What is the logic of not accumulating wealth? I guess everybody is just supposed to spend every penny they make and let the government take care of us if something goes wrong?

    Not everybody every penny, but unjustly rich and despicable people like Bezos. And others, who gained their fortune by exploitation and misfortune of others.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    edited April 2019
    @Arvia , You seem like a kindred spirit to a forum friend of mine. Allow me to introduce you to @Son_of_Imoen . He hasn't been around for a while, so I don't know if he still ever checks these forums. Gosh, I hope he's okay. I think you could really help him to know he's not alone in how he feels if he could meet you and interact with you here. @Son_of_Imoen , Are you still out there? :)

    BTW, he might be able to give you some insight about how to help your son, as well. He's had some similar problems in his own life. Not the same, but similar.
    mlneveseArviaJuliusBorisov
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Son_of_Imoen was last active just a couple weeks ago. If you really want to pester him, @BelgarathMTH, you can send a PM and it should give an email notification!
    BelgarathMTHmlnevese
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    The problem for me is questions like "why do people still go on far away vacations with aeroplanes while climate change is such an obvious threat for years now", "why do people leading companies decide to make money at the expense of the worker's rights and welfare, the environment and why are things made to be thrown away" and "why do people use criminal activities to cheat people of money". In a world that I would understand, products are made to last and made with the health of the workers and the environment foremost in the mind, people would go on holiday in the near region only and you'd only need one simple password for all your accounts to identify yourself as no-one would be out to log-in as if (s)he where you.

    Reading this make me wander if is really you that have "mental disease" problems (i don't know if the term is appropriate for you due to my bad english knowledge) or is the whole humanity that is mental diseased and you are one of the few sane people out there...




    semiticgoddessBelgarathMTHArvia
  • Son_of_ImoenSon_of_Imoen Member Posts: 1,806
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    Reading this make me wander if is really you that have "mental disease" problems (i don't know if the term is appropriate for you due to my bad english knowledge) or is the whole humanity that is mental diseased and you are one of the few sane people out there...

    LOL, that's what I sometimes wonder myself as well.
    gorgonzolaSkatan
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    Arvia wrote: »

    And how is it with children? Do they have consciousness right from the beginning? Is there some point in their life when it starts? Why do I know that I talked, and therefore probably thought, when I was a lot younger, but my first memories start only somewhere around my 3rd birthday? Or is memory and consciousness totally unrelated?
    my first memory is the uterus of my mother beginning to have contractions, believe me i had consciousness in that moment, but as usually people don't have memories of that moment of the life and most people don't have memories of before the age of 2 or 3 i can not tell if my having so early memories is related to the fact that i had consciousness before the age people usually do or if all people have consciousness from the very beginning and simply don't have memories of the first years.

    probably, if what happened to me happens to all humans, that is the very moment where consciousness really begins. Before it i was living in a world made by proprioceptive perceptions, i was not aware of a world outside of me and me and the uterus, that i did not perceive as something different from me, was all i was conscious of.
    at the very moment the contractions begun something very strange and unpleasant happened, as i perceived it as some part of me/the whole world as far as i did know was suddenly trying to compress, choke, expel me, that was the very moment when duality was born in my mind, the very moment i become conscious and aware to have a physical body into, but different from, a physical world.

    it is hard to explain what happens in the mind of a human way before the language, so the way to think that uses it as a tool, has begun, that mode of thinking is also active later, but most of the time is hidden behind the continuous flow of words that flood minds.
    words in the mind and logic are great gifts, don't get me wrong, but if many people that meditate try to stop that flowing of words in their minds there is a reason, it is a great gift that comes at a great price...
    and actually is not possible to cause the mind to stop, it can happen, but is a completely different thing.
    a real guru can also cause the other minds near him to stop the flow of words inside them, as his quiet mind acts as a powerful magnet that polarizes the smaller magnets near by, such is the power of the inner silence.
    but to find such gurus is not easy, it is not a thing that happens to all the people, usually the gurus famous from the media are not that kind of guru. and even if someone is so lucky to find a real guru it can happen that he don't recognize it, the last one i found was on a train, she was a very ordinary and simple noun, but her mind was a so powerful magnet...
    i did not even talk to her, her only presence in the same wagon in the train was more then enough for me, even if probably i was the only person aware of an enlightened person being there.

    we can not stop our minds intentionally, but be open and receptive is very possible, then the gift will come to everyone if there is a pure desire and if the ego, the "i want to be...." is kept quiet, recognizing what a really horrible thing it is.


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