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Why are Wizard Slayers considerec so bad?

NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 378
As the title above, why are Wizard Slayers considered bad? Just made a party in Black Pits with a Blackguard, a Sorceror, and a WS dualed nto a WS/Cleric and it functions reasonably well. What it lacks in magic item accessibility it makes up for in divine buffing. The emphasis on armour,helms, & boots nudges players to outfit the character with the best equiptment available (instead of using full plate mail with a minor enchanting ring/ammy/cloak) making it a rock solid tank that can shut dowm enemy spellcasters from afar with marginal innate magic resistance. Why does it receieve so much hate?

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Comments

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 2,549
    Well, their magic resistance is pretty pathetic. By 8th level, a Wizard Slayer only has 8% magic resistance, less than a third the magic resistance a character would get by wearing the Cloak of Balduran (which Wizard Slayers can't use).

    Normally, Wizard Slayers suffer from not being able to use some of the really good miscellaneous items (Strength-increasing items, Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise, spell resistance potions, Ring of Free Action, Greenstone Amulet). Some of these holes can be filled with the proper planning, though (e.g. making a Wizard Slayer/Cleric as you did, putting points in two-handed swords for Spider's Bane, using innate Draw Upon Holy Might, or having an ally buff the Wizard Slayer).

    JuliusBorisovNoloirStummvonBordwehr
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,261
    The class functions well within a party, but then so does any other class. I like them personally, but if you play with them solo (and no-reload), it's easier to see the impact of the drawbacks - particularly worse AC / saving throws and loss of buffs. Dualling is a way to get round some of those drawbacks - and dualling to druid, thief or mage all have attractions as well as cleric. However, you then lose the possibility of shorty saving throws, which is a big loss for a solo character.

    If you are able to get a very high level WS they become an extremely strong class - even solo. The lack of AC is less important in the later game given the availability of high physical resistance, while GWWs can offset the lack of improved haste and saving throws are also much less important when you can have MR of 100%+ - getting there takes a while though ...

    JuliusBorisovNoloirStummvonBordwehr
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 863
    edited February 16
    Fighter duals are always strong and you are right that the wizard slayer's item restrictions can nudge you toward improving your playstyle. However you can make those same improvements on a berserker/cleric and have a stronger character with better item availability. Another downside to WS characters is that you don't fight mages all that often, and when you do, you can typically eliminate them in seconds which negates the need for an on-hit miscast magic ability. Finally, despite their name wizard slayers are probably less effective in the anti-caster role than druids or inquisitors whose abilities work on non-arcane casters (clerics etc). But you can certainly win the game with a WS so best wishes and good luck as you make your way through it!

    Post edited by jsaving on
    JuliusBorisovGrond0NoloirStummvonBordwehr
  • monicomonico Member Posts: 559
    Noloir wrote: »
    As the title above, why are Wizard Slayers considered bad

    'cause those people forgot to use darts.

    dunbar
  • ShangerooShangeroo Member Posts: 84
    edited February 13
    Adding to what's said above, Dual classing can make this class more interesting, but then you forfeit the full benefit of the 1% per level magic resistance. Although theoretically, if you were to dual class a WS at level 13 to a thief, you could get 100% magic resistance with UAI.

    13% from WS ability
    10% Ring of Gaxx
    10% Amulet Seldarine
    20% Human Flesh +5
    10% Trial of Bhaal
    5% Lum Maching
    30% Purifier
    5% there are a couple of shields that give 5% resistance or you could steal Viconia's holy symbol ring or dual wield another weapon that gives MR like Hindo's doom.

    103% MR total. Of course this is if you really value MR.

    Noloir
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,003
    I edited the Wizard Slayer ability to give 3 MR per level; still not amazing but I also made the MR items usable by Wizard Slayers--the Cloak of Balduran works really nicely on them. If you don't value MR then you haven't sent a character with 100 MR against a lich--as long as they have Protection from Evil cast on them for when they cast Gate there really isn't anything the lich can do. It is also funny to send a 100 MR character against Irenicus at the final battle--all he does is cast spells.

    NoloirPokota
  • NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 378
    I edited the Wizard Slayer ability to give 3 MR per level; still not amazing but I also made the MR items usable by Wizard Slayers--the Cloak of Balduran works really nicely on them. If you don't value MR then you haven't sent a character with 100 MR against a lich--as long as they have Protection from Evil cast on them for when they cast Gate there really isn't anything the lich can do. It is also funny to send a 100 MR character against Irenicus at the final battle--all he does is cast spells.

    Yeah, was just thinking that. About 3pts resist instead of 1 or 5 bonus resist every 2 levels to give it viability. Through potions and scrolls characters can make themeselves immune to magic. Makes little sense as to restrict the Wizard Slayer's MR in this regard. Especially when it's anything but a Fighter/Thief dual-class.

  • NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 378
    Shangeroo wrote: »
    Adding to what's said above, Dual classing can make this class more interesting, but then you forfeit the full benefit of the 1% per level magic resistance. Although theoretically, if you were to dual class a WS at level 13 to a thief, you could get 100% magic resistance with UAI.

    13% from WS ability
    10% Ring of Gaxx
    10% Amulet Seldarine
    20% Human Flesh +5
    10% Trial of Bhaal
    5% Lum Maching
    30% Purifier
    5% there are a couple of shields that give 5% resistance or you could steal Viconia's holy symbol ring or dual wield another weapon that gives MR like Hindo's doom.

    103% MR total. Of course this is if you really value MR.

    It's a fair trade-off depending on what it's dualed into. Although it'll lack the 100% MR as a purist as a Fighter/Cleric it can selectively boost it's own MR. Granted Berz/Cler and multi Fighter/Clerics can do the same but I've never been inclined to used the MR spell with them since they have access to potions anyway.

    It's not the "best" class in the game but it does have it unconventional niche making it more fun in a way. Instead of just gulping every potion down and hammering away there's more strategic thought required to get the most out of the kit.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,261
    The magic resistance clerical spell is not helpful if you want to get to 100% - due to the way it sets MR, rather than adds to it.

    As a thief dual, 100% is more easily obtained by using Carsomyr than the Purifier, though you need to switch weapons if you want to backstab (and it's then a pain having to unequip and re-equip items to get their MR to apply again).

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 863
    Hard to imagine passing up the complete immunities offered by the berserker for the eventual hope that you might one day reach 100% immunity as a wizard slayer.

    monico
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 677
    I've done Berserker > Cleric before, but not Wizard Slayer > Cleric. Should be fun, but I don't like losing every last bit of "magic" support.

    Might be good for me to try it anyway, learn some new strategies.

    monicoNoloir
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,206
    Fighters are a very gear dependent class. Wizard slayer removes most of their gear options, and while the abilities it provides in return are powerful, most people feel it's not nearly enough to mitigate the loss of almost all magical equipment.

    That being said, Beamdog fixed it so that Miscast Magic effect works on ranged attacks too, and ranged fighters are slightly less gear dependent, so some people feel a Wizard Slayer with a bow and arrow makes a surprisingly powerful adversary. I hear Arrows of Dispelling and the Miscast Magic effect make a potent cocktail.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 677
    To my knowledge, Arrows of Dispelling don't count as enchanted for purposes of what they can hit, so "If you get past PfNM, sure."

  • NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 378
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Fighters are a very gear dependent class. Wizard slayer removes most of their gear options, and while the abilities it provides in return are powerful, most people feel it's not nearly enough to mitigate the loss of almost all magical equipment.

    That being said, Beamdog fixed it so that Miscast Magic effect works on ranged attacks too, and ranged fighters are slightly less gear dependent, so some people feel a Wizard Slayer with a bow and arrow makes a surprisingly powerful adversary. I hear Arrows of Dispelling and the Miscast Magic effect make a potent cocktail.

    Under thorough examination the WS ranged ability to inflict miscast magic penetrates though mage protections like stoneskin & mirror image (for better or worse) like the old poison weapon ability. It's pretty interesting as a ranged character build.

    monico
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 773
    Wizard Slayers can be amazingly good offensive characters, one of the few classes that, when paired with a Druid for Fireseeds, can even shut Liches and other high level casters even with SCS.

    On the other hand, their defensive capabilities are absolutely terrible without going WS -> Thief. No Invisibility potions, no Potions of Invulnerability, no Potions of Genius (Mindflayers say hi), no Cloak of Reflection, no Greenstone Amulet, no Belt of Inertial Barrier, no Fire Resistance potions/rings, no Electricity resistance... Also, their offensive capabilities are innately worse vs anything that's not a caster. Fortunately, casters make up a ton of the actual threats in the game, so...

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,261
    Noloir wrote: »
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Fighters are a very gear dependent class. Wizard slayer removes most of their gear options, and while the abilities it provides in return are powerful, most people feel it's not nearly enough to mitigate the loss of almost all magical equipment.

    That being said, Beamdog fixed it so that Miscast Magic effect works on ranged attacks too, and ranged fighters are slightly less gear dependent, so some people feel a Wizard Slayer with a bow and arrow makes a surprisingly powerful adversary. I hear Arrows of Dispelling and the Miscast Magic effect make a potent cocktail.

    Under thorough examination the WS ranged ability to inflict miscast magic penetrates though mage protections like stoneskin & mirror image (for better or worse) like the old poison weapon ability. It's pretty interesting as a ranged character build.

    If you attack enemies indirectly (like using Fire Seeds, exploding arrows or the Big Metal Rod), you can also bypass PfMW - providing a handy way to quickly shut down liches at the start of a battle.

    NoloirDanacmStummvonBordwehr
  • NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 378
    edited February 15
    Neverused wrote: »
    Wizard Slayers can be amazingly good offensive characters, one of the few classes that, when paired with a Druid for Fireseeds, can even shut Liches and other high level casters even with SCS.

    On the other hand, their defensive capabilities are absolutely terrible without going WS -> Thief. No Invisibility potions, no Potions of Invulnerability, no Potions of Genius (Mindflayers say hi), no Cloak of Reflection, no Greenstone Amulet, no Belt of Inertial Barrier, no Fire Resistance potions/rings, no Electricity resistance... Also, their offensive capabilities are innately worse vs anything that's not a caster. Fortunately, casters make up a ton of the actual threats in the game, so...

    Maybe they're meant to heavily favor distance combat. Up close they're lacking as purists but from from afar they're a problem. Particularly for enemy casters. Maybe to make the most of them they ought to be treated as Archers with less damage output. Complemented by whenever class they dual into, if any.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,206
    Fun Trivia about the Wizard Slayer.

    In Pen and Paper they have a sort of Paladin like situation going on. If they knowingly allow themselves to be effected by a positive spell, they lose all their Wizard Slayer abilities for 24 hours.

    As bad as the Wizard Slayer restrictions are in Baldur's Gate, it could've been worse.

    StummvonBordwehrdunbar
  • NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 378
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Fun Trivia about the Wizard Slayer.

    In Pen and Paper they have a sort of Paladin like situation going on. If they knowingly allow themselves to be effected by a positive spell, they lose all their Wizard Slayer abilities for 24 hours.

    As bad as the Wizard Slayer restrictions are in Baldur's Gate, it could've been worse.

    How do they come to become Wizard Slayers at all since they"re so magic averse according to PnP?

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 677
    Noloir wrote: »
    How do they come to become Wizard Slayers at all since they"re so magic averse according to PnP?
    Magic.
    Yukari is messing around again.
    Eirin's Shady New Drug.
    It's a Moriya Shrine Conspiracy.
    Templates like this are forbidden.

  • ShangerooShangeroo Member Posts: 84
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Fighters are a very gear dependent class. Wizard slayer removes most of their gear options, and while the abilities it provides in return are powerful, most people feel it's not nearly enough to mitigate the loss of almost all magical equipment.

    That being said, Beamdog fixed it so that Miscast Magic effect works on ranged attacks too, and ranged fighters are slightly less gear dependent, so some people feel a Wizard Slayer with a bow and arrow makes a surprisingly powerful adversary. I hear Arrows of Dispelling and the Miscast Magic effect make a potent cocktail.

    Does the miscast ability impact summoning? Like Amelyssan or Behifet summoning demons? If so, I can see good potential in WS with grand mastery in bows.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,261
    I don't think so. It only affects casts of arcane spells, not divine spells or special abilities - if any opponent has unlimited uses of something, then I think those will be from a special ability. Some enemies also force cast certain spells, i.e. they can't be interrupted - by damage or miscast magic.

    StummvonBordwehrBlackravenNoloirmonico
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 773
    No, divine spells are messed up as well. Despite the name it applies Miscast Magic, which applies to all spellcasting.

    What isn’t screwed up are innate abilities and things cast by a force script rather than normal spell mechanics. Dragon Fear and Wing Buffet, Mummy fear, Beholder rays, Mindflayer psionic attacks are all non-interruptible by Miscast Magic. I want to say a lot of demons cast things by forced script, though I could be wrong on that front.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,261
    edited February 15
    @Neverused if WS applies miscast magic to divine casters in your installation, that must be the result of your mods - in the unmodded game it only applies to arcane.

    Edit: thinking about it, the confusion may be because you've seen the miscast magic icon appearing on divine casters when hit by a WS. It is the case that this icon appears on any character hit by the WS (whether a caster or not) to show that they've been subject to the WS ability, but only arcane casters are actually affected by that ability.

    Post edited by Grond0 on
    BlackravenStummvonBordwehrNoloirmonico
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 773
    ... Huh, just tested it. Could’ve sworn it applied to divine casters as well: maybe before the enhanced editions? There’s references in other posts about it either being effective or non-effective before 2012 or so, so I dunno and without copies of earlier versions I can’t check :tongue: I guess even in late ToB there were no priests I cared about locking down.

    Then again, mechanics knowledge back then was absolutely horrid and many people claimed that hitting a Mirror Image would stop the Arcane Spell Failure from a WS, so...

    Blackraven
  • ShangerooShangeroo Member Posts: 84
    jsaving wrote: »
    Hard to imagine passing up the complete immunities offered by the berserker for the eventual hope that you might one day reach 100% immunity as a wizard slayer.

    Agree but the discussion here is more of how can a WS be good vs which class if better.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,261
    Neverused wrote: »
    ... Huh, just tested it. Could’ve sworn it applied to divine casters as well: maybe before the enhanced editions? There’s references in other posts about it either being effective or non-effective before 2012 or so, so I dunno and without copies of earlier versions I can’t check :tongue: I guess even in late ToB there were no priests I cared about locking down.

    Then again, mechanics knowledge back then was absolutely horrid and many people claimed that hitting a Mirror Image would stop the Arcane Spell Failure from a WS, so...

    There were no changes in who it could affect or the extent of that effect from vanilla BG2 (though the character description in that wrongly said that the % failure was 15%, not 25% per blow). There was a big change though in allowing ranged as well as melee attacks to cause miscast magic.

    StummvonBordwehrmonico
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 818
    The forced script casting always bothers me. Why are enemies that are out of rules ?

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 677
    Because the rules are heavily player-biased.

    ThacoBell
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,206
    For what it's worth, I get the impression that's pretty true to pen and paper. Not only does the Dungeon Master have an entire separate rulebook, they also have a bit more discretion to play fast and loose with the rules in the interest of creating a fun campaign.

    There's a term for that kind of gameplay I forget, but when the Players fight the Boss of the dungeon, it's not truly meant to be a duel between equals, like if they were opposing players in a game of Call of Duty. The player and the dungeon master each have different roles in this gameplay experience, which sometimes comes with different or more rights and privileges.

    monicoThacoBell
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