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Can't punch the noble at Candlekeep Inn without getting every NPC hostile.

I'm not sure exactly why. At first, I thought it was related to Sword Coast Stratagems and its Call for Help feature but even when I disable it, it's the same issue.

Can't tell if it's a core feature of the base game or not anymore.

Comments

  • LammasLammas Member Posts: 180
    Hemingbae wrote: »
    I'm not sure exactly why

    Punching people isn't reason enough?
    If I'm reading this correctly you're forcing your character to attack someone which has always made people in the area hostile towards you in base game.

    ThacoBell
  • HemingbaeHemingbae Member Posts: 19
    edited April 24
    Lammas wrote: »
    Hemingbae wrote: »
    I'm not sure exactly why

    Punching people isn't reason enough?
    If I'm reading this correctly you're forcing your character to attack someone which has always made people in the area hostile towards you in base game.

    I'm pretty sure knocking him out did not use to trigger hostility from anyone. I can easily find videos of people playing EE, with SCS and not having this behaviour.

    Here is one (with timestamp) :

    Same "trick" is mentionned here
    https://steamcommunity.com/app/228280/discussions/0/527273452879907779/

    "You can punch people unconcious and loot containers. Like that one nobleman at the Candlekeep Inn. Theres 86 (I think) gold and a flamedance ring in the dresser in his room. Gives you a little extra spending money to start, assuming you can pick/bash the lock."

    So no, it's definitely NOT a base game feature.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,270
    I can confirm this behavior does not occur in the base game and that installing SCS does result in this behavior. Not only will people upstairs go hostile, but everyone else in Candlekeep as well, whether or not someone from upstairs runs downstairs - there's then no way to continue the game.

    OrlonKronsteen
  • HemingbaeHemingbae Member Posts: 19
    edited April 24
    Thanks, just wanted to make sure my game was not messed up.

    The video I linked also uses SCS but does not get this behavior, hence the confusion ! Either he's running an older version (though the video is barely a week old) or it's related to a component setting ?

  • Dyzmen22Dyzmen22 Member Posts: 9
    edited April 24
    I see that he's running a 2.3.67 version of Baldur's Gate. Maybe that has something to do with it? Idk, maybe SCS combined with the current 2.5 version causes this behavior? I'm not sure, it's just a hypothesis.

    OrlonKronsteen
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,270
    The video shows the original game descriptions for difficulty - therefore if he's running SCS it is an older version. Relatively recent ones had the same issue with punching that nobleman, but it's quite possible that much older versions did not.

    OrlonKronsteen
  • HemingbaeHemingbae Member Posts: 19
    Excellent !

    I have another question that could use a new thread but I was wondering if it's at all possible to recruit Imoen at a higher lvl than 1 with the current versions ? I evaded her at the start of Chapter 1, came back lvl 5 and she was still lvl 1. I read somehere that the game loads her .cre if you're on the same map despite not talking to her but there are contradictory statements.

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 781
    I used to used to cold-cock the nobleman at the Candlekeep Inn with v2.3+SCS all the time, but haven't been able to do so since installing v2.5+SCS. Since I haven't played without SCS for sometime I can't confirm what is causing the change in behaviour (v2.5 or SCS), but it is normal now with v2.5+SCS for the whole place to go hostile. A pity, really. There was something strangely satisfying about using that tactic, and that chest has a sweet bit o' gold, too.

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 6,108
    Hemingbae wrote: »
    Excellent !

    I have another question that could use a new thread but I was wondering if it's at all possible to recruit Imoen at a higher lvl than 1 with the current versions ? I evaded her at the start of Chapter 1, came back lvl 5 and she was still lvl 1. I read somehere that the game loads her .cre if you're on the same map despite not talking to her but there are contradictory statements.

    I think there's a CRE for Imoen that's level 2 but that's the only alternate for her that I know of. If you're a thief you might be able to get to level 2 in Candlekeep by killing guards but it would be tough. Other than that, I don't think you'll ever see even the level 2 Immy.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,270
    edited April 24
    I used to used to cold-cock the nobleman at the Candlekeep Inn with v2.3+SCS all the time, but haven't been able to do so since installing v2.5+SCS. Since I haven't played without SCS for sometime I can't confirm what is causing the change in behaviour (v2.5 or SCS), but it is normal now with v2.5+SCS for the whole place to go hostile. A pity, really. There was something strangely satisfying about using that tactic, and that chest has a sweet bit o' gold, too.

    It is still possible to loot the chest and, if you get the timing right, get downstairs without the guard fixating on you. I agree though that the punching route was more satisfying :p.

    OrlonKronsteen
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 868
    Is it even worth asking whether the OP is doing a chaotic evil run-through?

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 799
    @Hemingbae
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    I think there's a CRE for Imoen that's level 2 but that's the only alternate for her that I know of. If you're a thief you might be able to get to level 2 in Candlekeep by killing guards but it would be tough. Other than that, I don't think you'll ever see even the level 2 Immy.

    I've definitely seen the level 2 Imoen, every time I've evaded her and come back later (game version 2.5, Mac, both modded and unmodded). All other NPC companions come in their lowest level version, and all (including Imoen) get the "catch-up" experience trigger after joining the first time.
    In practice, this is a downgrade from the level 1 version, because she comes with skill point assignments you're likely to disagree with and you end up at the same XP either way.

  • HemingbaeHemingbae Member Posts: 19
    jsaving wrote: »
    Is it even worth asking whether the OP is doing a chaotic evil run-through?

    I'm playing a true neutral and punching people to rob them is about the sweet spot :D

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 680
    That's not true neutral so much as true asshole, but it's fun to indulge your inner Bhaal every so often.

    Balrog99ThacoBelldunbar
  • HemingbaeHemingbae Member Posts: 19
    Pokota wrote: »
    That's not true neutral so much as true asshole, but it's fun to indulge your inner Bhaal every so often.

    @jsaving was characterising the behavior as Chaotic Evil which is quite narrow minded.

    I don't know where you are getting at with the insult.

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 6,108
    Hemingbae wrote: »
    Pokota wrote: »
    That's not true neutral so much as true asshole, but it's fun to indulge your inner Bhaal every so often.

    @jsaving was characterising the behavior as Chaotic Evil which is quite narrow minded.

    I don't know where you are getting at with the insult.

    Pretty sure that was tongue-in-cheek sarcasm, not an insult...

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,860
    Hemingbae wrote: »
    Pokota wrote: »
    That's not true neutral so much as true asshole, but it's fun to indulge your inner Bhaal every so often.

    @jsaving was characterising the behavior as Chaotic Evil which is quite narrow minded.

    I don't know where you are getting at with the insult.

    I dunno, I think punching out random people is pretty a-holeish

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 781
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    I dunno, I think punching out random people is pretty a-holeish

    Or desperate: charname has just barely survived getting shanked by Shank or Carbos. Gorion hasn't given he/she enough gold to fully equip. Instead of killing the noble, charname merely knocks him out. A small mercy, depending how you look at it.

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 868
    Hurting others so you can take what they possess is what defines a specific D&D alignment, however that alignment is not called true neutral.

    ZaxaresPokotadunbarThacoBell
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,024
    Or desperate: charname has just barely survived getting shanked by Shank or Carbos. Gorion hasn't given he/she enough gold to fully equip. Instead of killing the noble, charname merely knocks him out. A small mercy, depending how you look at it.

    That would still make it an evil act though. Not AS evil as killing them while you rob them, but it IS still robbery.

    Then again, I'm sure that RPG players far and wide will happily wander into random people's houses and take everything that isn't nailed down, and that behaviour has pretty much become a trope of RPGs in general, so I won't FAULT players for doing that kind of "but it's TECHNICALLY not robbing!" looting, but if we were going strictly off alignment roleplaying, that sort of behaviour would VERY quickly result in paladins becoming Fallen etc. ;)

    ThacoBell
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 680
    And this is where the D&D alignment system needs a third axis, "Selfless/Selfish"

  • HemingbaeHemingbae Member Posts: 19
    Zaxares wrote: »
    Or desperate: charname has just barely survived getting shanked by Shank or Carbos. Gorion hasn't given he/she enough gold to fully equip. Instead of killing the noble, charname merely knocks him out. A small mercy, depending how you look at it.

    That would still make it an evil act though. Not AS evil as killing them while you rob them, but it IS still robbery.

    Then again, I'm sure that RPG players far and wide will happily wander into random people's houses and take everything that isn't nailed down, and that behaviour has pretty much become a trope of RPGs in general, so I won't FAULT players for doing that kind of "but it's TECHNICALLY not robbing!" looting, but if we were going strictly off alignment roleplaying, that sort of behaviour would VERY quickly result in paladins becoming Fallen etc. ;)

    Nobody is saying it's not robbery but not all robbery is evil.
    I'd say the way that guy talks to charname arguably earned him a punch. The theft is just an extra fuck you. I don't think it's "evil" but that word has a lot of interpretations. Kagain is classified as evil but is he really ?

    And I don't loot houses. At most, I will let myself in but I don't go around looting normal people's shit. I only do whatever I want when I'm treated with less respect than I like in which case I don't feel obligated to respect any law or norm or moral in return. So, not evil. Neutral.

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 868
    Whether it's evil depends on why. D&D defines evil as selfishness and defines chaos as rule-breaking. Stealing would always be chaotic and would also be evil if you are doing it to boost your own gold count rather than giving the proceeds to the less fortunate (as say Robin Hood would). Delivering beat-downs because you didn't like how someone spoke to you would always be evil and might also be chaotic depending on the circumstances.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,860
    Pokota wrote: »
    And this is where the D&D alignment system needs a third axis, "Selfless/Selfish"

    There already is. Its called "good" and "evil". If you strip away morality, these literally become selfless and selfish. Every single good and evil act can be described as such.

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 680
    There's a subtle difference between an evil cultist of Cyric who is doing evil things for the sake of Cyric, and and evil cultist of Cyric who is doing the same evil things for his own sake. One's Selfless Evil, the other's Selfish Evil.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,860
    Pokota wrote: »
    There's a subtle difference between an evil cultist of Cyric who is doing evil things for the sake of Cyric, and and evil cultist of Cyric who is doing the same evil things for his own sake. One's Selfless Evil, the other's Selfish Evil.

    No. When you break it down, every act of evil is selfish. You are hurting another person for the sake of your benefit. A cultist trying to get favor with Cyric, is no less selfish than a cultist doing it for the lols.

    Zaxares
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,024
    Hemingbae wrote: »
    Nobody is saying it's not robbery but not all robbery is evil.
    I'd say the way that guy talks to charname arguably earned him a punch. The theft is just an extra fuck you. I don't think it's "evil" but that word has a lot of interpretations. Kagain is classified as evil but is he really ?

    And I don't loot houses. At most, I will let myself in but I don't go around looting normal people's shit. I only do whatever I want when I'm treated with less respect than I like in which case I don't feel obligated to respect any law or norm or moral in return. So, not evil. Neutral.

    Not all robbery is evil, no, but I daresay nearly all players who engage in the kind of house looting we're talking about are NOT planning on giving that money away to orphans or soup kitchens. ;) (Even donating to Temples is not entirely altruistic, since I imagine most players who do so only do it because they're aiming to get their Reputation up to a certain level to keep party members happy or to get pesky guards off their back.)

    At first I thought you were talking about Korgan. XD Kagain is a lot harder to read, since the BG1 NPCs don't really have the kind of banter or side-quests to really let you get a proper look at their motivations. Kagain is definitely a mercenary, but how far would he go to get his gold? As a trader, would he be willing to import illicit goods like poisons and slaves, or fence stolen goods? As an adventurer, would he be willing to take on tasks that more moral people would flinch from, like assassinations? With Korgan, it's fairly easy to see his evil early on because he takes WAY too much pleasure in violence and killing. Could Kagain be cut from the same mold? His voiceset doesn't really imply it. As such, I can only assume that whoever created Kagain had some inkling of why he was evil, but the reasons behind it are unknown to us and will forever remain a mystery.

    Yeah, I would say your character's behaviour and responses are within the Neutral borders, although of course it would depend on how far you were willing to take your "retribution". Knocking a noble out and taking his purse because he was an arrogant snob who made some very cutting remarks about your parentage and hygiene is one thing, but would you do the same thing to a smart-ass beggar (or Portalbendarwinden? ;) ) who would be much more badly affected by your actions because he'd likely have neither the coin nor the means to replace his losses or get healing from a temple?

    woogirlThacoBellPokota
  • AaezilAaezil Member Posts: 171
    Yea punching a civilian out and robbing them is an evil act for anyone who might be confused in here.

    woogirlThacoBell
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