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I don't like random HP on level up

SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
So far played with random HP on level up but I don't like the concept anymore. Too many times I am getting low rolls. Unjustified. Clearly classes have different HD and not taking full advantage of this property is as if amputating the classes. Unacceptable. And emotionally not cool because leveling up is also a rewarding experience and when the dice is low it takes the pleasure of the reward away. Frustrating. Not fun. In some cases for example Dorn gets 40 HP at level 6. Ridiculous.

Fortunately there is an option to always roll max HP on level up and I strongly recommend turning it on.

Post edited by Soido on
OrlonKronsteenStummvonBordwehrAedan
«1

Comments

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    I would have been okay with that if enemies also were random HP on each encounter. But no, they always get the max. Take Drizzt for example, he always has 92 HP no matter. And all scripted important enemies I believe are like that.

  • SirBatinceSirBatince Member Posts: 809
    pre 2.0 there was no option so you're rather fortunate.

    though it's nothing NearInfinity couldn't handle.

    JuliusBorisov
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,277
    5e gives you the option to adopt an average score, which is half the hit dice+1+constitution score. For example: a fighter would get as an average 6 hit points+constitution per level. I like that rule and I kinda use it on my characters.

    As for enemies getting max hp, I have to quote one of the oldest cliche sentences in rpg , "npcs don't need to follow any rules because they are narrative tools" .

    sarevok57
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 19
    Interesting 5E rule. Then you have to choose if you want to gamble or you want certainty.

    DJKajuru
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,302
    Any enemy you meet will always have the same HPs (though beware that some creature types can share a common name, but actually be different - so there are lots of different varieties of skeleton warriors for instance). However, enemy HPs will not normally be the maximum expected for their level. Drizzt for instance is something like a level 16 ranger I think, with constitution of 15. That would give him an expected maximum of 120 HPs, assuming he has no equipment that gives bonus HPs (some enemies have items equipped providing bonuses that can't be stolen and are not dropped when they die).

    Personally I much prefer to play with random HPs. Baldur's Gate is by design a game with a significant random element. One of the reasons people have continued to play the game for so many years is to explore that random element and find ways to win even when luck is conspiring against you. Then of course, if you know you will get maximum HPs on level up there's not a lot of satisfaction to be gained from that. If there's a random element, it can certainly be frustrating if rolls are low - but it can also be exhilarating when they're high :p.

    OrlonKronsteenJuliusBorisovdunbar
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    @Ammar

    Are you saying that all the bandits, gnolls, etc mook enemies are getting random HP on each encounter ?

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 19
    @Grond0

    The problem is that random is random for everybody, while an average is only an approximation to randomness in the very long run.

    As for Drizzt, is 92 really the average ? I think he is well above the average for his class, something the main character cannot say because he is totally random. EDIT: Actually Drizzt seems to be slightly below the average.

    Averages work in a very long run, let's say level 25 then you will likely be close to the true average. However, in early levels you might be far from it, thus comes the frustration.

    Like others said, it is better either have an absolute max value for all, or absolute average value for all.

    Absolute max values, or absolute average values, preserve the class properties, while randomness amputates class properties. To me class properties are more important than a game of dice.

    Post edited by Soido on
    OrlonKronsteen
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,076
    Not in each encounter, but their hp values are consistent with random rolling and not consistent with always get maximum rolls. For example, common bandits are level 2 fighters with only 8 hp (they have no constitution bonus, so maximum would have been 20 hp). E.g. enemy characters are pre-rolled and stored, but their rolls are plausible.

    OrlonKronsteen
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    The randomness kills class properties. For example

    Level 1

    1d6 HP - on average 3
    1d12 HP - on average 6

    So 3 HP difference right ? By level 30 averages will be 90 HP difference.

    Not quite right

    Level 30

    1d6 - max class HP 180
    1d12 -max class HP 360

    Now the difference went up to 180 HP.

    You see why class HP property matters more in max rolling than in averages. Since RNG leveling tends to approach the averages, this means that RNG leveling amputates class properties severely

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,693
    edited May 19
    When I first played BG back in the vanilla times, I didn't like randomized HPs and the failure to scribe spells. I reloaded a ton of times to get everything in a perfect state.

    When I got acquainted with the community around BG, I learned about the culture of "no-reload" runs. BG veterans taught me to take all the consequences of actions in-game and live with them, adjusting my own strategy and approaches depending on the dice.

    Now I'm a full adept of this philosophy:
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Personally I much prefer to play with random HPs. Baldur's Gate is by design a game with a significant random element. One of the reasons people have continued to play the game for so many years is to explore that random element and find ways to win even when luck is conspiring against you. Then of course, if you know you will get maximum HPs on level up there's not a lot of satisfaction to be gained from that. If there's a random element, it can certainly be frustrating if rolls are low - but it can also be exhilarating when they're high :p.

    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
    DJKajuruDinoDinBalrog99BelgarathMTH
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 19
    RNG leveling is just gambling. Yes of course gambling is very attractive sport, gambling has been around for a long time since the 17th century. In fact early American settlers took a gamble, seeking fortune in American lands. Gambling has proliferated since, especially in places like Las Vegas, Atlantic City, and Macau to name just a few. Mississippi riverboat gamblers, horsebet gamblers, soccer gamblers, scratch a ticket gamblers, slot-machine gamblers, blackjack gamblers, e-sport gamblers, Baldur's gate gamblers and so on. The devs even made casinos in Carnival City next to Nashkel.

    I learned that 5E has introduced a workaround the gamble syndrome in levelup. Because when there is gambling, there is always cheaters as well. They introduce a failsafe mechanism of averages. But as I demonstrated in my previous post, such a system amputates class properties severely.

    I believe the better system is of max HP, both on party and on enemy.

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,036
    Even way back in the original games, I hated random HP rolls and I would constantly reload until I could get my HP to either max or -1 from max. The way I see it, that "Max HP on Level Up" option is just saving me a whole lot of time. XD

    Even in my tabletop games, I use a house rule that all PCs get max HP on level up. It eliminates tension and jealousy among players, because if one player constantly gets poor rolls and their HP starts to lag behind, they'll naturally feel inferior and grumpy about it. (Especially if they're supposed to be a beefy class like a Fighter and they wind up with less HP than the Rogue!) From the opposite end of the table, I usually will use default (50%) HP rolls for minion-grade enemies (the standard amount they get in the MM), about 75% for elites (the Goblin Shaman, the King's Bodyguards, special "named" enemies and the like), and boss enemies always have max HP, the same as the players.

    ilduderino
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,302
    Soido wrote: »
    @Grond0

    The problem is that random is random for everybody, while an average is only an approximation to randomness in the very long run.

    As for Drizzt, is 92 really the average ? I think he is well above the average for his class, something the main character cannot say because he is totally random. EDIT: Actually Drizzt seems to be slightly below the average.

    Averages work in a very long run, let's say level 25 then you will likely be close to the true average. However, in early levels you might be far from it, thus comes the frustration.

    Like others said, it is better either have an absolute max value for all, or absolute average value for all.

    Absolute max values, or absolute average values, preserve the class properties, while randomness amputates class properties. To me class properties are more important than a game of dice.

    If you want maximum HPs for you, the facility is there in the game. If you want max HPs for enemies, you can do that using mods. Like many issues in the game, different people have different preferences and that's fine - everyone is free to play the way they want.

    Die rolls for HPs only apply to the first 9 levels (10 for some character classes). Hence the higher level you are the less difference those initial die rolls make.

    The point I was making before is that Baldur's Gate is a game designed to have a considerable element of chance - but also providing you with multiple ways to manipulate the random factors in your favor. When you try and hit an opponent there's normally a random chance of hitting, but you can improve that through higher levels, choice of weapons, spell buffs, ambush attacks, weapon proficiencies, special abilities etc. You can also make certain of a hit by using things like hold, stun, sleep and critical hit HLA. A significant element of the skill in playing the game is how you manipulate that element of chance so that you don't get killed when the die rolls are against you - that's not gambling in a purist sense, though there are certainly gamblers who are successful because of their ability to manipulate gambling systems. If you are very unlucky with HP rolls, that means that you need to adjust your strategy when playing to avoid dying. I do understand that can be frustrating if you've only played the game a few times. However, if you've played it hundreds or thousands of times, then having to adapt your strategies to events in the game is likely to seem like a good rather than a bad thing.

    JuliusBorisovThacoBelldunbar
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    @Grond0

    There is another issue with RNG leveling, besides the emotional aspect as Zaxares described in his post about people getting discouraged due to low rolls, and even being bullied by other players on their weakness rolls.

    The issue is that the game is being played by humans who look into forward time, while the enemy is abstract AI. The AI has tons of bandits at low HD, but each bandit has no purpose. It is just one among thousands of bandits without purpose. The AI does not "care" if one of thousand bandits will roll low. But the player has only 6 characters and only a limited amount of rolls.

    In other words, the AI has lots of freedom to roll low HP among the thousand of enemies. But the player does not. All you have is 25 rolls/levels.

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    What happens is that the guy rolls low HP and he abandons the game. He just says sorry guys I am useless here due to pure randomness and leaves the game. The most disappointed person of course is the DM. Probably the whole party is disappointed when someone leaves the game. The RNG HP on level is a game killer.

    Furthermore, it also makes no logical sense to roll HP. Hey I am a warrior, I train hard, go to the gym every day, eat healthy, why on earth I got a 7 HP out of 17 possible ? Why ? Who said that ? I am disciplined warrior my class train hard all day and I get a 7 ? And the guy with the bow got a 10. Okay then, so be it, let's see if the guy with the bow can save your party then when I leave it.

    There are serious inconsistencies with RNG leveling

  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 843
    Dorn with 40 HP at level 6 isn't actually bad, it would mean he's gaining HP at a better than average rate. Base 10 HP for level 1 of course. Then 5 levels of average 5 HP would only be 35 HP. I get that some players don't like the random rolls. One of the key differences in playing the series (or IWD) with HP rolls or not is that your fighters will tend to diverge far more from your other classes in HP. They're the ones most hurt by random rolls after all.

    Personally I always play with the random rolls. It makes each playthrough a little different, it adds some drama to level-ups when they're sometimes isn't all that much to them. And it makes things ever so slightly more difficult, which after years of playing is important for me.

    JuliusBorisovThacoBell
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 843
    Soido wrote: »
    RNG leveling is just gambling. Yes of course gambling is very attractive sport, gambling has been around for a long time since the 17th century. In fact early American settlers took a gamble, seeking fortune in American lands. Gambling has proliferated since, especially in places like Las Vegas, Atlantic City, and Macau to name just a few. Mississippi riverboat gamblers, horsebet gamblers, soccer gamblers, scratch a ticket gamblers, slot-machine gamblers, blackjack gamblers, e-sport gamblers, Baldur's gate gamblers and so on. The devs even made casinos in Carnival City next to Nashkel.

    I learned that 5E has introduced a workaround the gamble syndrome in levelup. Because when there is gambling, there is always cheaters as well. They introduce a failsafe mechanism of averages. But as I demonstrated in my previous post, such a system amputates class properties severely.

    I believe the better system is of max HP, both on party and on enemy.

    Most strategy/tactics based single player games have a gambling element to them. War games and grand strategy games have attack rolls. XCOM has attack rolls, random RPG elements on soldier level ups. The gambling element has been a core element of these genre of games for a long, long time. It's one of the fundamental elements that gives these games replay value.

    It might be seen as a cold deconstruction of video games to point this out, especially for gamers who might eschew gambling, but it's an undeniable truth. There's something compelling about the gambling element in a lot of video games. I don't think people would find these games as fun if they ended up playing in a completely predictable fashion like say chess.

    ThacoBell
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 857
    DinoDin wrote: »
    Dorn with 40 HP at level 6 isn't actually bad, it would mean he's gaining HP at a better than average rate. Base 10 HP for level 1 of course. Then 5 levels of average 5 HP would only be 35 HP.
    Not exactly. Random HP rolls in this game are done by rolling twice and picking the better one. A random "d10" roll averages 7.15, so an average level 6 version of Dorn would have about 46 HP. A total of 40 is a little on the low side.

    If you want a "canon" version, the lowest-level version of Dorn in BG2 is level 8 with 70 HP. He rolled well.

    Incidentally, while the other companions generally look to have been rolled using the usual random rolls, Rasaad and Neera in BG2 were clearly rolled with maximum hit points on.

    DinoDin
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 19
    I want to remind that my post is not about general randomness (like to-hit rolls, saves v/s, etc) but about HP levelup rolls.

    As someone said above, it affects mostly warrior classes. I personally care less if my mage rolls 2 instead of 4. Neither the 2 nor the 4 will make him frontline warrior.

    But it is important that my tank rolls 17 and not 7

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,693
    If you like it that way, 17 and not 7, go for it. It sounds like this is your current approach and you should take it as it seems to lead to the most fun for you, at this moment of time. What others think shouldn't affect your own enjoyment.

  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 843
    Thanks merry, didn't know that. I had always assumed it just stuck with the basic rules.

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 19
    It is not my fault that my warrior rolls 7s. It is not the class fault either. It is a fault of a single very controversial rule. It is just one rule among many, but it is really bad rule.

    I learned that 5E is going to change this. It will have a averages approach and a gambling approach.

    I am not sure this new rule will solve things. Because yet again the "gamblers" will re-load on bad roll and cheat the system. While those who prefer the averages approach they severely amputate their class. Neither approaches is good. What had to be done is make max rolls for everyone, both npc and enemy

  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 823
    There were mods to change the hp per level to above average. You can edit the hp files to use another method of rolling, or fix the amount. Like use 5D2 roll for warriors to 6-10 hp per level (mostly 7-8).

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    To put things into perspective.

    It is not important if Soido likes to max roll, or if you want to rng roll.

    What is important however is how enemies are designed. Obviously if you implement both systems you will run into conflict.

    Why ? Because me rolling max 17s would like maxed enemies, while you rolling rng will want rng enemies.

    There is the clash and this affects both of us

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,063
    No really though. Very few enemies are chunky enough to survive more than a hit or two with even max rolls.

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 6,148
    In the original BG i save reload spammed for extra hit-points. I always went max for mages and thieves but would settle for slightly lower than max for fighters and priests just because I got sick of reloading (less reloads for a d4 or d6 than d8 or d10/12 to get max hp on average). Now I just set the game to max hp on level-up to save me the hassle. I might do it differently on a no re-load run but the older I get, the less patience I have for no-reloads. I lost my last solo no-reload on a 99 point archer just because I let my impatience screw it up.

    JuliusBorisov
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    Maybe it is my fault. I am Ironman gamer, especially in RPGs. I even cannot play games which die too much. But my brother for example is a multiplayer gamer who does not care at all if he dies in a game. I think he is just superficial and he probably thinks I am crazy. Oh well everyone plays the way he likes

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,063
    "Oh well everyone plays the way he likes"

    And that is the beauty of BG.

    StummvonBordwehrZaxaresBalrog99Rik_Kirtaniya
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