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Help for newbie (keeping Edwin & Minsc)

A little background. I played the original Baldurs Gate when it first came out like 20 years ago with the 6 CD version, but never played BG2. I have now gotten BG2 EE on my android tablet to play while in lockdown. I am not very tech savvy, but I have been reading a lot of old forum posts and know that mods won't really be an option for me.
My problem is that I have done most of the chapter 2 quests (just have windspear and unseeing eye left) and I want to replace Nalia with Edwin but keep Minsc. From what i have read, there is really no way to stop Edwin and Minsc from killing each other without mods. But I have read that the timing of these deadly confrontations is random, and that you can reload a previous save and they won't go right back and try to kill each other again at the same spot. That said, the random confrontations can and will still occur going forward. I save alot, so I don't mind reloading every once in a while to combat this. That said, I don't want to have to do this every few minutes or anything. So my questions are:
1) Are these confrontations really random as opposed to specifically timed or event triggered? If they are timed or triggered, then there is no point in doing the reload thing as the confrontation would just keep happening right after the reload.
2) If they are truly random, can anyone who has done this tell me how often it tends to occur? If it only happens once in a long while, then the reload thing won't be a big deal. But if it happens very frequently, the it will be too much of a pain and a flow disruption to constantly have to reload so it won't be worth it.
I know this is basic stuff and most everyone on these forums is on their 50th playthrough with their complex mods, but if anyone can help out a middle aged, not tech savvy noob I would appreciate it.

kaja8dunbarTimbo0o0o0

Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,404
    Some banters are random and may or may not happen at all. Some are guaranteed to happen. Minsc and Edwin is the latter. Some banters can prevented by keeping npcs far enough apart in the party, but not all of them.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,621
    edited April 28
    i don't see the point of having minsc and edwin in the same party, the ranger has all the reasons to hate red wizards.
    also nalia is a perfectly capable mage. at the beginning she will have less spells memorized then edwin, so is somehow less powerful, even if her thieving skills and to not be restricted in the schools of the spells she can cast help her to somehow balance it.
    but from the moment that she is able to cast lev 7 spells (and it is true for every mage but necromancers) the more memorizations become way less important as every PI clone can cast many spells for free, when the mage has also improved alacrity half spell book for free if RoV and AoP are used.
    so maybe from a certain point of the game on is nalia the better one as the divination spells are not game breaking, but useful and the more memorization means only to have to rest a little less, but in my experience with an efficient use of PI i usually have to rest because of the fatigue, not because my mages are out of memorized spells.
    without even talking of wish that makes to rest not an issue at all, or spell trap that can allow to memorize again your lev 7 spells having infinite PI cast each day.

    I can not help you in tricks to have edwin and minsc live peacefully in the same party, but i don't see any RP reason to do it and i also don't see many PG reason, minsc is not the strongest fighter, valygar is as good as ranger, as has less ac but can stab, korgan is a better tank and mlee beast and keldorn has his own power with the sword that dispel on hit and his super powerful DM and useful fast cast true sight, and edwin is the best mage only for a limited time, while best mage often means that he has to rest less often, there are few battles when he really needs to use all his spellbook while other mages run out of options.

  • MartinWMartinW Member Posts: 46
    Well, OP maybe attached to Minsk because of Boo, and wants Edwin because of his crazy spell pool. It took me several playthroughs during 200x years to become able to kick Jaheira, Minsc and Imoen from party..
    Best solution is as you mention to go with Nalia. She also is capable of fighting in melee from some point... while Edwin can do nothing, he can't even throw daggers reliably because his dexterity is so bad.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,621
    edited April 28
    the same is true with MMM, that are much more powerful then the daggers.
    but i would say that if he can do nothing ranged it is not a so big problem, as nalia will maybe hit more with a dagger, and also use the bow to throw elemental arrows to disrupt spellcasters and the special arrows that dispel on hit, but unless you give her a good str belt her contribution to the party damage will be not substantial anyway, without str bonus even with improved haste and a returning dagger is 8d4/round, on average 34 dmg/round, that is what i get normally from a single attack of a well equipped fighter.
    so i rate much more her thieving skills that make possible to run without a real thief in the party, and also her being a better mule, as she can carry some weight with her natural str.

    as the main role of the casters is to cast he is perfectly capable of doing it, and better of her until PI can equalize them, but at the end his supposed superiority is only less rests and the ST bonus in conjuration at the cost of not being able to cast divination spells. And if the ST bonus can mean a lot for a necromancer or other kits probably does not give so much advantage to a conjurer.

    also for me it took time to begin to play without some npcs, the first times i played without minsc and jaheira, as well as nalia, that being the first npc that I had with me in a big quest become integral part of my own canon party, i felt the game empty, i felt that something was missing.
    but for the reason i had some affection for those npcs i would have never tried to have them with someone that is so incompatible, even jaheira, in theory true neutral but surely good oriented as she acts in the game, but the others even more, are among the NPCs that make to be good oriented a prevalent part of their traits, to compel minsc to be with a red wizard, after the RW assassinated his former witch, is to ask him something imho very wrong, if you have some affection for him.

  • MartinWMartinW Member Posts: 46
    Unfortunately, consequences are not carried between BG1 and 2 and so enmity between Minsc and Edwin is artificial. Canon version is that Dynaheir survives BG1 which means that Minsc can be simply unaware of Edwin intentions in BG1 and Edwin can tolerate Minsc simply because Edwin follows our group for his "own purposes". Even without carrying consequences, Bioware could coded them in starting dialogs with followers.
    For example, if when meeting Edwin we ask - why you are not dead, then Edwin and Minsc couldn't be in same party because there was conflict which led to Edwin death. And if meet him like we never met, then Minsc and Edwin could travel together...
    On the other side, when playing game first-second time, all those conflicts added so much for immersion and game felt like ultimate high fantasy story... so who are we to criticize something which still sits in metacritic top10 after 20 years :)

    kaja8gorgonzola
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,404
    @MartinW You're forgetting a couple things:

    1. Bg1 set up animosity between Red Wizards and the Wychalaren(sp?), whatever Dynaheir is. You can also have Edwin temporarily in the party, only to kick him out upon meeting Dynaheir. Minsc and Edwin could easily spend time together and learn to hate each other, since Edwin is very open about trying to kill Dyna. So it still follows on in character and lore from this aspect.

    2. Edwin makes fun of Dynaheir's death. Mocking Minsc over it. So there's another reason for Minsc to hate him.

    MartinWgorgonzola
  • MartinWMartinW Member Posts: 46
    1. Yes, but this animosity between Wychalaren and RW, while Minsc is just a ranger and not very bright one, so if we didn't talk to Edwin with Minsc in party he maybe unaware about Edwin existence and intentions and RW just don't care about him
    2. Oh, I forgot about this. Yes, this certainly makes sense for Minsk to attack Edwin. While other characters may dislike and mock each other really hard (Aerie-Jaheira-Viconia for example), they are not berserks and can control themselves while Minsc cannot.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,621
    yup, but there is boo that should be in charge to control our crazy berseker ranger, probably the real reason is that boo don't like edwin... ;)
    go for the eyes minsc, he is a red wizard! :D

    stu-k
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,404
    @MartinW "1. Yes, but this animosity between Wychalaren and RW, while Minsc is just a ranger and not very bright one, so if we didn't talk to Edwin with Minsc in party he maybe unaware about Edwin existence and intentions and RW just don't care about him"

    He's not stupid, just damaged. He still takes his protection duties very seriously, and still retains knowledge of his job and culture. So he would know the dangers he would need to watch for. Its worth noting that the head wound doesn't seem to affect his memory at all. Only his emotional control, maybe some focus. He can't read, but its not really clear if he could before.

    ilduderino
  • MartinWMartinW Member Posts: 46
    Yes, but when my protagonist had intellect 8, some NPC may call him braindead or something like that. I remember Solaufein is constantly mocking me about low intelligence and when drow asks about mind flayers, Bhaalspawn suggests that they are Otyugh :lol:
    So while Minsk written character might be perceptive and even smart in some things, his stats are those of the stupid and dimwitted.

  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 623
    edited May 2
    8 is not really low int, it is below average based on a 3 - 18 scale on three dice. The BG characters have extremely high stats. Minsc’s stats in pnp would be fantastic for a frontline character, Sarevok’s a dream roll. The likelihood is crummy 7 - 14 stats with minimal bonuses or penalties, and for every 17 or 18 (of which BG2 npcs have many) there may be a 3 or 4. 18 dex is meant to be professional level acrobatics. Even if you roll 4 dice and discard the lowest roll there will be 3, 4 and 5 int people out there making your character look like a genius

    ThacoBell
  • MartinWMartinW Member Posts: 46
    Fact 1 - with intelligence lower then 9, characters can't use scrolls or wands
    Fact 2 - if protagonist has intelligence lower then 9, some NPC will call him stupid and some reply options will disappear/change
    Fact 3 - even Jaheira, who must care about Minsc because he is ranger, he is just&noble and he was companion in "canon" version of the group... despite all that J calls Minsc an imbecile in starting dungeon

    Don't get me wrong, I like him and he is one of the mascots of the series of the Bioware and his voicing with Boo's squeaks in background is amazing. But stat wise he is not very bright and if Edwin wasn't directly mocking Minsc, it's quite possible that Minsc won't be able to figure out Edwin's intentions by himself. Wisdom 6 doesn't help in this either.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,404
    edited May 2
    @MartinW " it's quite possible that Minsc won't be able to figure out Edwin's intentions by himself. Wisdom 6 doesn't help in this either."

    Um, Edwin loudly announces his intentions both when recruited, and when Dynaheir is recruited. And again, Minsc is not stupid. He's actually very perceptive when it comes to people's intentions. Throughout the whole series, he never seems to mistake an evil person for good or vice versa. He has some damage which makes utilizing some learning skills difficult/impossible. Being disabled has nothing to do with intelligence.

    ilduderino
  • MartinWMartinW Member Posts: 46
    @ThacoBell
    Yes, Minsc has good perception, but perception has nothing to do with intelligence, more then that, persons with high intelligence usually aren't very socially perceptive because they "process" all they see, instead of taking things how they are. This can be compensated by experience/wisdom, but I think everybody met a plenty of guys with high IQ, but whose perception, especially in younger age (i.e. inexperienced) is simply awful.
    On the other hand "simple guys" usually have high empathy and clearly see through the ruse if they are not overwhelmed by emotions. They can be easily cheated in gambling or in love because of those emotions, but if somebody will falsely pretend to be their friend or tries to use them, they will see and plainly reject it.

    Even Balor who takes our intelligence in chapter 4, says something like "you sacrifice your wit, so you will see more clear when you head is not clouded by facts".

    In terms of Minsc injury or being disabled, it's more about his wisdom then intelligence. He is a bit crazy, but craziness never prevented to have exceptional intelligence.

    I agreed that Minsc can't be in party with Edwin, because Edwin mocks him (and entire group) and for "simple fighter" it is unacceptable, even given Edwin advantages (twice more spell casting capacity then other mages), which can be otherwise used for "greater good".
    But if we assume case, that Minsc and Edwin never met in BG1, and so Edwin doesn't know of Minsc connection to Dynaheir, I can't see why they can't travel together. Edwin will be indifferent to Minsc (" big strong simian, to protect me while I'm casting, hmm?"), while Minsc will tolerate him same as he tolerates Viconia.

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,081
    ilduderino wrote: »
    8 is not really low int, it is below average based on a 3 - 18 scale on three dice. The BG characters have extremely high stats. Minsc’s stats in pnp would be fantastic for a frontline character, Sarevok’s a dream roll. The likelihood is crummy 7 - 14 stats with minimal bonuses or penalties, and for every 17 or 18 (of which BG2 npcs have many) there may be a 3 or 4. 18 dex is meant to be professional level acrobatics. Even if you roll 4 dice and discard the lowest roll there will be 3, 4 and 5 int people out there making your character look like a genius

    8 is still kinda low for a Human. The "average" stat is 10, so a Human with Intelligence 8 is roughly as smart as the average orc (7-8). In human society, he'd be considered dull-witted and probably get cheated a fair bit on transactions, but he's smart enough to function in society. At the extreme end, somebody with Intelligence 3 is basically about as smart as your average dog. He would have trouble remembering names and places, is unable to grasp the concept of numbers (if you've ever read Dragonlance, think the classic gully dwarf where the limit they can comprehend is "one" and "more than one"), and is unable to speak a language. The classic "so dumb he only knows how to say his own name" character is probably an example of somebody with Int 3.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,621
    on a 3-18 scale that an human uses the average value is actually 10.5, so 8 is 2.5 lower then the average value, average between the maximum possible and the minimum possible, that means nothing.

    compare it with the RL, we have an average IQ of 100, but the maximum IQ a person can have can be even over 200, while a person with a IQ of 50 has indeed a very low value, probably a person regarded as "really not very smart" sits around an IQ of 70-80, so only 20-30% less then the average, while a genius exceed the average value of probably 60-100%.

    if it is also true for the FR multiverse and the int stat is something similar in its progression to the IQ value of the real world and 18 is a superior genius value, the highest the most gifted humans can possibly have, i would say that the real average, the point where the average of the population sits, is something closer to 8 then to 10.5, to have like 10-13 is to be a very intelligent person and values between 16 and 18 have minds like the ones of einstein, kasparov or bobby fisher.

    and this means that minsc if is not in the average is only a little less intelligent of the average of the people, so perfectly able to do with his mind what most of the people can do, ie graduate in an high school, not only understand some very basic you learn in the first grade or slowly read a text maybe understanding what it means if it is very simple.

    his wis has a low score of 6 and maybe he can lack of a proper education, but from his int score, if there is an analogy with the RL IQ he is far from being so brain damaged as most people suppose he is.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,404
    @MartinW "But if we assume case, that Minsc and Edwin never met in BG1, and so Edwin doesn't know of Minsc connection to Dynaheir, I can't see why they can't travel together."

    I already explained why this isn't the case in my first response. Minsc and Edwin are real close to each other in Nashkel, and they CAN be taken together prior to rescuing Dynaheir. Its only once Dynaheir is reached that the decision point hits. So they absolutely can be together with the canon party, and they would all be aware of each other.

  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 623
    More than a quarter of rolls with three dice will be 8 or less so I don’t think 8 is hugely less than average based on this system, that’s quite a large % of the population

    ThacoBell
  • stu-kstu-k Member Posts: 31
    Maybe it was the tat to the head that affected the brain

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