Should a good character pay the fee to Gaelan Bayle of Valen's mistress?
SomeOnesBody
Member Posts: 25
I'm terribly afraid of spoilers, but this decision seems to have been thrust on the player without any context... I can't seem to roleplay my decision because I don't know who this creepy graveyard lady is, nor do I want to support shadow thieves... So what should a goody-goody chaotic good hero character side with? The thieves or the creepy graveyard creeps?
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So, on the one hand, you have a guild that, while brutal and violent, generally doesn't generally want to kill people - as that's bad for business. The few exceptions are for people who have betrayed the guild while being a trusted member.
On the other hand you have a "guild" that you witness, repeatedly, killing people for no other reason than giggles or because they refused to join. Oh, and they are vampires. That isn't necessarily a disqualifier, but it's pretty clear that these aren't your "Interview with a Vampire" vampires. While your character can't possibly know the extent of their activities, it's pretty obvious from the first time that you meet the "creepy graveyard lady" that she's not snacking on rats and small game.
For a good-aligned character, it always seemed pretty clear to me.
Ultimately they are both evil people. The Shadow Thieves try to portray themselves as somewhat harmless at first, but they are involved in a lot of killing and torture. You can rationalize that as the least bad option and say that you're only using them. There is still the option of eliminating them later, though not as part of a quest or anything (the Quest Pack mod has a component to make that more official).
There is even a dialogue option where Bodhi makes fun of me for being put off just because she's "creepy looking". But alright, shadow thieves it is, then, lesser of two evils and whatnot.
https://gibberlings3.github.io/Documentation/readmes/readme-alternatives.html
This adds a way to get help from the paladin order. But don't get me wrong. Installing a mod like that on a first run is not a good idea.
The "All Things Mazzy" mod also says that you can make some amends there for some of the stuff you do the Shadow Thieves.
That kind of approach is more likely to be Neutral or Evil than Good-aligned IMO. I'll agree some of it may leak into good alignments, but this has little to do with the law-chaos axis because laws can and do regularly enshrine this ends justify the means concept.
Chaotic means one doesn't have particular attachment to laws and rules (even set by oneself), and their behaviour is circumstance-based.[1] Lawful characters may or may not agree with ends justify the means type of laws (this agreement helps position them on the good-evil axis), and chaotic characters may or may not behave in a ends justify the means fashion of their own will (which will help position them on the good-evil axis). "Means" is understood as something with dubious morality, i.e. not unlawful, but "ungood".
[1] That means there are few dogmatic constraints on that person's actions, who will follow their heart. If their heart is of the purest good, then their actions will be "gooder" than an equivalent Lawful Good person, whose heart of purest good will be bent up to a point by external rules that cannot be as good-aligned.
Hermione Granger is Lawful Good, especially in the beginning of that saga, but later becomes Neutral Good as she sees it necessary to break laws in order to do good, but she does seem conflicted in doing so, so she balances on the threshold of lawful/neutral good.
Hagrid is Neutral Good. He will break and bend the rules in the name of good/good conscience, but he is no agent of chaos.
Malfoy is chaotic evil, as he will do whatever it takes to advance his own goals. His goals may not be evil, but his complete disregard for anyone but himself makes him evil and chaotic.
Voldemort is Neutral Evil. There is method to his evil schemes, it doesn't appear very chaotic at all. He will break laws and has no regards for them at all. His goal is evil, he does evil to reach them.
Neutral Evil will do evil for the sake of evil. It is likely the "evilest" of all alignments.
Snape is Lawful Evil. He will bend the rules, sometimes even break them. But he largely stays within the Lawful sphere, both adhering to and enforcing law/rules. He is thusly mostly Lawful, but he isn't very nice.. he is in fact quite malicious and rude towards the students and he has his fair share of skeletons in the closet. No good person could do what he does.. and he has a redeeming story arc in there, but in spite of that he spends most of his time being antagonistic.
Lawful Evil typically uses laws/rules in the dirtiest of ways to get ahead in life, and bends them way into the grey area and then some when it suits them - but somehow manages to twist things around in order to avoid legal repercussions.
tl;dr
Harry, Hermione and Hagrid would all choose shadow thieves over the vampires.
Voldemort and Malfoy would side with whomever seemed like the most powerful ally at the time.
Voldemort would probably choose Vamps as they are closer to what he is, but Malfoy is a wild card.
And Snape.. Snape would probably find a way to screw them all over and go brood in a corner.
I haven't tried it myself but it might provide a reasonable solution. Personally I tend to go with the Shadow Thieves on the basis that they are the lesser of two evils.
It's a Prison Break. Imoen was lawfully arrested and the Athkatlan authorities don't know about Irenicus's usurpation of Spellhold until after you've gotten back with that news.
When you pick the other side you can take his stuff from his dead body
At best it explains why lawful organization directly involved with Athkatla's government won't assist.
But it a misunderstanding of the alignment system to suggest that lawful organizations and individuals won't break local laws in certain situations. Being lawful means you follow some sort of consistent code on how to pursue your goals. A lawful good character would be in favor of strong laws to enforce what "good" behavior and respect those laws, but it doesn't mean he has to local laws which he sees as actively harmful, since they are unjust or even evil.
That should also be clear from the fact that highly hierarchic and disciplined criminal groups are often lawful evil, and actively break the local law - it's more that the strongly enforce their own internal law within their group.
So a lawful organization fighting slavery in Athkatla (while it being legal) or actively opposing the imprisonment of Imoen is definitely not outside the realm of the possible.
The Clergy of Mystra is a good example for a pre-dominantly lawful organization which is likely to take issue with mages using magic in self-defense against their abductor being imprisoned in a hellhole without any sort of trial.
4 chapters later. Lol
I believe you can visit the graveyard but not choose not to work with them? Your can go check then decide
As for the "Cowled Wizards are the legal authority", its a bit more complicated. They bribe the council to avoid any overhead. They nominally legal, but circumvent all consequences and responsibilty by illegal means. Even the most lawful/lawful character would see merit in bringing them down a notch.
Also, Snape is lawful Good, fight me.
I'd be willing to say LN for Snape, but LG? Not sure I see that...
He also had to use deception frequently and head a pretty evil(ish) house (Slytherin). Now that I think about it, True Neutral might be a better fit for him. He seemed to be pretty pragmatic, which is a good descriptor for TN.
Deception isn't inherently evil though, as well as being explicit orders from a superior, so it was lawfully followed deception. I could also probably go on a whole diatribe about predjudice against Slytherin because wizard Hitler just happened to belong to it in the past.
*edit* Maybe this should be split into another thread. I kinda went way off topic.
Seems like forever since I've been able to argue with you! My Irish side has gotten soft in the interim...
As iron sharpens iron
"Camaraderie, adventure, and steel on steel. The stuff of legend! Right, Boo?"