I'd also like to give some thanks to chimaera. I've never tried siding with him as an evil player. I am chaotic neutral at the moment but I think I may slip to evil during the hell trials. I will try to recruit him this time. I didn't think it was possible all of these years so I always played a good character if I intended to use him. I've never tried this fight with LOB mode so I think I will need all of the help I can get.
The quite underrated 2 hander you get in the underdark from the demon knights can be useful. +4 and every hit is +2 thac0 with no save for a long time, cumulative. Afaik no one is immune to that. With an evil fighter or a ft fmt with uai after a gww the thac0 of the toughest enemies drops to a level that makes a kobold shine in comparison, i tested it yesterday against my kensage and she had 24 thac0 in a pinch. To have enemies able to hit you only on crits imo makes every hard battle a lot easier.
The quite underrated 2 hander you get in the underdark from the demon knights can be useful. +4 and every hit is +2 thac0 with no save for a long time, cumulative. Afaik no one is immune to that. With an evil fighter or a ft fmt with uai after a gww the thac0 of the toughest enemies drops to a level that makes a kobold shine in comparison, i tested it yesterday against my kensage and she had 24 thac0 in a pinch. To have enemies able to hit you only on crits imo makes every hard battle a lot easier.
Thanks for the pointer. I'll keep it in mind. Maybe Serevok could use it.
If you want to be even more nasty you can add to the combo the wand of lightning trick, swapping the wand with a cursed scroll of weackness, 2 of them in soa, to drop the strenght of 2 enemies to 3, if i am not wrong. Not only their thac0 drops even more, but probably they will stand still as sitting ducks cause they are encumbered. Imagine the final boss casting her ts and then wasting it trying to reach you... Hail to the cheese, long stinky life to the smelly gorgonzola.
Add on, i never tested it on that battle, it should work, but i am not completely sure. What works, at least in not ee, is the staff of command, maybe only the boss is immune, but you should have 1 of her helpers at your command..
1. Cursed scrolls can only be used on self; they cannot be used on enemies. 2. Enemies are not affected by encumbrance; only party members suffer from it. 3. Melissan doesn't carry heavy enough items to be weighed down by 5 STR even if she was in the party. 4. Melissan doesn't have to walk during Time Stop in Ascension; she can cast Teleport Without Error to reach Charname from any location on the map, and the long reach of her spear will get her past any critters who might be surrounding Charname.
I've got a question. As an evil character, would it be possible to have a high reputation when you talk to balthazar and then turn into the slayer form a bunch of times leading up to the final battle so that your reputation is low so that you could keep serevok and bring balthazar to the group as well? Could you also get bodie to side with you or are you limited to either balthazar or bodie?
Also, any tips would be cool. I still have a while before I get to TOB but I'll look this thread up when I reach the end if you guys have any tips that might help me out on LOB mode with the cannon party. I'm planning on using Minsc, Serevok, Jahiera, Imoen, Nalia and a FMT for main character. No cheats or mods installed outside of SCS with all of the hardest options. Difficulty is LOB. Thanks in advance!
I've beaten Ascension on insane difficulty multiple times but I never really looked deep into any exploits or extra powerful options for the battle. Now that I am on LOB mode I think I am ready to embrace any edge I might get to turn the battle in my favor. I don't care how cheasy it is let me know about it. I have sunk into a repetitive cycle over the years and I am going to need a new way of looking at this fight in order to win. My FMT has a roll of 98 for stats. At the end game his stats should look like this: Strength=25 (Crom Frayer) Dexterity=21 (elf) Constitution=21 Intelligence=18 Wisdom=18 Charisma=18
I should be able to use any scroll or wand in the game and I will have access to 3 level 8 spells. Nalia and Imoen will have level 9 abilities.
EDIT: Are there any Protection from magic scrolls in TOB? I think two of them are in SOA. Any others?
Yeah I know, but I was planning on turning evil during the hell trials this time. If you can still bring Blathazar on board as an evil character then you might be able to keep serevok as an evil character as long as your reputation is low correct? I'm currently a chaotic neutral character. My thought was that Balathazar needed a high reputation when you talk to him at his temple and Serevok needs a low reputation at the final fight so if you used slayer form to tank your reputation between the talk with balathazar at his temple and the final battle maybe you could keep serevok and bring balathazar into your team as an evil character. What are the requirements for bringing bodie into your team and can she be brought on to the team if Balathazar is already on your side?
I actually don't know how keeping evil sarevok works. Or if Bohdi and Balthazar are mutually exclusive. I have only ever played a goody two shoes. Are you starting in SoA, or are you in BG1? There is an extension to Ascension called Turnabout that lets you summon your own allies to the final battle to even the odds.
I am in BG1 at the moment. About to start SOD. Serevok cannot be turned good if your main character is evil and he will betray you at the end but not if you are evil and have a low reputation. He will decide to side with you.
I don't think I want to add any other mods at the moment. I would rather just utilize SCS and Ascension to improve the AI and improve the story. LOB mode adds plenty of challenge so I am pretty much covered. I don't really like to mod most of my play throughs but I have played the game so long that SCS is a must and I always liked the Ascension ending in terms of role playing and story telling. Since it was done by David G, I guess I have always been a little more accepting of it despite the fact that it is a mod.
It's just that it is so dang hard compared to the rest of the series and LOB with SCS is already pushing my skills to the limit. I'm hoping to pull as many characters to my side as possible and utilize every sneaky trick anyone can think of to win it this time. Last time, I beat the series on LOB mode with SCS but I chickened out and passed on Ascension. Now I am going to try it but I don't know if I have what it takes to win. I guess I'll see when I get there. Like I said though, if anyone has any tips they would be greatly appreciated.
I feel you there, I use no difficulty enhancing mods but I love the additions to Ascension that I can't resist for story and roleplay reasons. It is a HUGE kick in the pants from the vanilla experience.
For me? Capped. My last time through, that was a party of two level 40 fighters (Korgan, Mazzy), a level 40 monk (Rasaad), a level 40 bard (Haer'Dalis), a level 34 paladin (Keldorn), and a level 24/28 fighter/thief (protagonist). That party, forbidden from casting arcane or divine spells, found the final stage of Melissan summoning demons after the Five go down to be the hardest part of the battle. They sill won all three times I tried it (Insane difficulty, with SCS as well).
Tactics against the Five ... take out Abazigal with traps. Keldorn uses dispels and scorcher ammunition to keep the heat on Sendai. And the rest of the party goes after the others, starting with Illasera. If an enemy stops time, Balthazar can distract them or beat somebody up. And if Balthazar gets low on health, a rod of resurrection can heal him.
On recruiting Balthazar - you can do it even if you're a complete monster, evil with the reputation to match. You just need 19 wisdom to pull it off. And anyone but a wizard slayer can get there, with a potion and an ioun stone. Alignment and reputation do make it a lot easier, of course. A good character with paragon reputation doesn't need any stats. If you're good or neutral without the perfect rep, you need Wis 16 or Cha 16. Evil with a great rep - charisma won't do it, and you need 16 Wis.
But if you snag Balthazar - no chance at Bodhi. You only get one new friend joining you at the Throne.
I have a mod that lowers my XP gain, so my singe class characters are at around level 26, while dual-class characters are at level 21/22. I’m using everything in my arsenal though, including all spells and scrolls. I play at Insane difficulty, and also have SCS installed, so Sendai and Abazigal usually have a tons of buffs cast on themselves previously. Sendai in particular is pretty problematic.
So far I’ve only managed to kill Illasera, Abazigal, Balthazar and Yaga-Shura before Melyssan destroyed my party with Time Stop. My F/M GW has an item that makes him immune to its effect (that’s how I managed to kill several of the Five), but Viconia and Imoen usually don’t stand a chance against Melyssan during Time Stop.
There are a few good ideas here I will employ. Still, might need to use EEKeeper to level up my characters a bit though.
I have a couple of questions:
1. What kinds of traps should I use for this fight? Do the Symbol spells work? So far I’ve seldom used them.
2. Is there any indication when Time Stop is about to be cast, so that I should prepare my GW with Focus?
3. I will try to cast Protection from Magic on Sendal and/or Abazigal. Is there anything (pre-buffs specifically) that might prevent it to work?
1. The fight I described used almost all spike traps, because those (and standard thief snares) were what the party had. As for Symbol spells ... the Five are immune to fear and instant death. Stun might work. Skull Traps and Delayed Blast Fireballs can also work, though mostly against the enemies on the right. Against the enemies on the left, Yaga-Shura tends to trigger the traps first and eat them with his absurdly high damage resistances.
2. Different spell schools have different casting animations/sounds, and Time Stop is an Alteration spell with a long casting time. If you notice that, it's probably a TS.
3. I'm pretty sure that PfM goes straight through spell protections. It doesn't have a school, and while it's listed as a level 1 effect, my quick test had it ignore a Spell Deflection. As a "friendly" spell, it ignores magic resistance.
Also, in my experience, having Balthazar on the wrong side makes the fight a lot harder. One party of mine that breezed through almost everything at Insane difficulty but failed to recruit him had to lower the difficulty down to Tactical for the final battle.
This is a bit of a necro, but I'd thought that I would comment to provide some insight to this battle. I went into it rather unknowing and this Ascension battle really ramps up the challenge.
Be aware that a number of mods can have a huge impact on the difficulty of this battle. This was an older BWS install (BG1+BG2 combined build) that I didn't get around to finishing and restarted because it was there: Ascension + SCS + Tactics + Rogue Rebalancing (Rogue and Bard changes) + Refinements (HLA changes) + Spell Revisions + Insane difficulty. Quite a few other mods and I was very restrictive for mod-added equipment to make it a challenge. I didn't use the Staff of Magi or Cloak of mirroring, for example.
Party was essentially a shorty party: 20/18 gnome f/Illusion, 34 Mazzy, 36 Nephele cleric npc mod, 38 Petsy bard npc mod, 26 Xan sorcerer npc mod, 38 Alora swashbuckler npc mod with RR changes.
This older version of Spell Revisions changed the way spell shield worked, such that it is not an extra debuf defense and Imprisonment was a modified maze which made it rather well resisted by everyone. Thus there is typically only the spell shield layer defense and both enemy and player get to the breach point rather quickly.
1. The first fight with 2 Fallen Solar, Irenicus, Bodhi, Slayer Imoen and a bunch of other chaff was not too bad. The Solars are quite dangerous - as they will cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction among other spells and they hit pretty hard ranged/melee. MD was unique to them and basically strips almost all spells. Solars can see invisible and need +4 weapons to hit them. In my game they tended to ignore summons unless they can not go around or can't see party members, but summons do distract the demon chaff. Bodhi is pretty nasty with a bunch of increased power from various mods - so she needs to go next. Irenicus summons a Planetar, etc.
2. The pools had Balor/Meriliths/various other types that immediately gate in others. The Balor vorpal effect can be dangerous. Generally not too bad. In my game completion of pools only healed, not rested.
The final fight, however...
I set up with a number of traps + symbols stun(scrolls) + summons, mostly around the right side of the battle in order to allow a party shift behind to the right side. Only one Mordenkain's sword as that seems to minimize the enemy AI chance of casting death spell. I did not use time stop as Balthazar is not that bad if managed without timestop. Symbols had some very limited effect vs the chaff.
Initially I went full throttle after Bathazar with the intent to avoid him adding into Melissan's timestop hazard. But after hammering him with everything I had for about 20 rounds, he just would not go down from near-dead. So, I'm not sure what that was about (bug or kill ordering or such?). And by that time, the rest of the battle was a mess.
Sending a cleric with physical mirror or someone with a shield of reflection or summons can Distract Illasera, in order to stop her stripping and crippling another party member for a bit. She's very strong from one of the mods.
3. So I reloaded and immediately took out Illasera, which brought in Melissan, who summoned 2 Fallen Solars. Abazigail summons a Planetar and Sendai a Deva, with other chaff (Balors and such). My enemy kill focus was in order: Solars, Abazigal, Sendai, Balthazar (he seemed to die a lot easier this time-weird), and Yaga-Shura (and he took a tremendous amount to kill...)
Melissan casts a number of time stops which can be fatal to a unprepared party member. She also has this distance globe of blades that can be cast on a party member that does a lot of damage on insane for 2 rounds, and constantly renews her personal globe of blades and immunity. When the last of the 5 is dead she then summons a bunch of succubus (charm) and about 10-ish very strong archer demons that hit quite well. She only summons a few more periodically after this large amount.
I had a character with reflection be a decoy for a while but she was eventually killed with Melissan's time stop. Main character eventually did it better but needed some time to rebuff/heal as this battle took many turns.
Ultimately a couple of npcs were resurrected and no chunking during main the fight...but sadly the bard got chunked at the very end by Melissan's distance blades. I had everyone either beating on her or dispelling her buffs. And she took a while to beat down. Her MR had been reduced but she was immune to most spells except a couple of the higher level Bigby hand spells.
For the final battle I did not use time stops or wish spells (not enough wisdom anyways and had a mod that removed temp stat-boost potions). And I did not have a Planatar but did have one Deva, along with various other summons. I used clones right from the start (Vhailor's Helm for Mazzy), scrolls or contigency spells for main/bard/sorc/Swash and this immediately added a lot of extra help. The AC of the swash meant that its clone had pretty good survival in tanking as well as extra traps when possible.
One thing of note was that my main was wearing Roranach's Horn and that is a big help minimizing Balthazar's damage with 50% crushing resist.
So that's the story of what you might see in a less surgical fight. I've read some of the previous posts and I can see how some of those suggestions could be worth a try.
Comments
Not only their thac0 drops even more, but probably they will stand still as sitting ducks cause they are encumbered. Imagine the final boss casting her ts and then wasting it trying to reach you...
Hail to the cheese, long stinky life to the smelly gorgonzola.
1. Cursed scrolls can only be used on self; they cannot be used on enemies.
2. Enemies are not affected by encumbrance; only party members suffer from it.
3. Melissan doesn't carry heavy enough items to be weighed down by 5 STR even if she was in the party.
4. Melissan doesn't have to walk during Time Stop in Ascension; she can cast Teleport Without Error to reach Charname from any location on the map, and the long reach of her spear will get her past any critters who might be surrounding Charname.
Also, any tips would be cool. I still have a while before I get to TOB but I'll look this thread up when I reach the end if you guys have any tips that might help me out on LOB mode with the cannon party. I'm planning on using Minsc, Serevok, Jahiera, Imoen, Nalia and a FMT for main character. No cheats or mods installed outside of SCS with all of the hardest options. Difficulty is LOB. Thanks in advance!
I've beaten Ascension on insane difficulty multiple times but I never really looked deep into any exploits or extra powerful options for the battle. Now that I am on LOB mode I think I am ready to embrace any edge I might get to turn the battle in my favor. I don't care how cheasy it is let me know about it. I have sunk into a repetitive cycle over the years and I am going to need a new way of looking at this fight in order to win. My FMT has a roll of 98 for stats. At the end game his stats should look like this:
Strength=25 (Crom Frayer)
Dexterity=21 (elf)
Constitution=21
Intelligence=18
Wisdom=18
Charisma=18
I should be able to use any scroll or wand in the game and I will have access to 3 level 8 spells. Nalia and Imoen will have level 9 abilities.
EDIT: Are there any Protection from magic scrolls in TOB? I think two of them are in SOA. Any others?
I don't think I want to add any other mods at the moment. I would rather just utilize SCS and Ascension to improve the AI and improve the story. LOB mode adds plenty of challenge so I am pretty much covered. I don't really like to mod most of my play throughs but I have played the game so long that SCS is a must and I always liked the Ascension ending in terms of role playing and story telling. Since it was done by David G, I guess I have always been a little more accepting of it despite the fact that it is a mod.
It's just that it is so dang hard compared to the rest of the series and LOB with SCS is already pushing my skills to the limit. I'm hoping to pull as many characters to my side as possible and utilize every sneaky trick anyone can think of to win it this time. Last time, I beat the series on LOB mode with SCS but I chickened out and passed on Ascension. Now I am going to try it but I don't know if I have what it takes to win. I guess I'll see when I get there. Like I said though, if anyone has any tips they would be greatly appreciated.
Tactics against the Five ... take out Abazigal with traps. Keldorn uses dispels and scorcher ammunition to keep the heat on Sendai. And the rest of the party goes after the others, starting with Illasera. If an enemy stops time, Balthazar can distract them or beat somebody up. And if Balthazar gets low on health, a rod of resurrection can heal him.
On recruiting Balthazar - you can do it even if you're a complete monster, evil with the reputation to match. You just need 19 wisdom to pull it off. And anyone but a wizard slayer can get there, with a potion and an ioun stone. Alignment and reputation do make it a lot easier, of course. A good character with paragon reputation doesn't need any stats. If you're good or neutral without the perfect rep, you need Wis 16 or Cha 16. Evil with a great rep - charisma won't do it, and you need 16 Wis.
But if you snag Balthazar - no chance at Bodhi. You only get one new friend joining you at the Throne.
So far I’ve only managed to kill Illasera, Abazigal, Balthazar and Yaga-Shura before Melyssan destroyed my party with Time Stop. My F/M GW has an item that makes him immune to its effect (that’s how I managed to kill several of the Five), but Viconia and Imoen usually don’t stand a chance against Melyssan during Time Stop.
There are a few good ideas here I will employ. Still, might need to use EEKeeper to level up my characters a bit though.
1. What kinds of traps should I use for this fight? Do the Symbol spells work? So far I’ve seldom used them.
2. Is there any indication when Time Stop is about to be cast, so that I should prepare my GW with Focus?
3. I will try to cast Protection from Magic on Sendal and/or Abazigal. Is there anything (pre-buffs specifically) that might prevent it to work?
2. Different spell schools have different casting animations/sounds, and Time Stop is an Alteration spell with a long casting time. If you notice that, it's probably a TS.
3. I'm pretty sure that PfM goes straight through spell protections. It doesn't have a school, and while it's listed as a level 1 effect, my quick test had it ignore a Spell Deflection. As a "friendly" spell, it ignores magic resistance.
Also, in my experience, having Balthazar on the wrong side makes the fight a lot harder. One party of mine that breezed through almost everything at Insane difficulty but failed to recruit him had to lower the difficulty down to Tactical for the final battle.
Be aware that a number of mods can have a huge impact on the difficulty of this battle. This was an older BWS install (BG1+BG2 combined build) that I didn't get around to finishing and restarted because it was there: Ascension + SCS + Tactics + Rogue Rebalancing (Rogue and Bard changes) + Refinements (HLA changes) + Spell Revisions + Insane difficulty. Quite a few other mods and I was very restrictive for mod-added equipment to make it a challenge. I didn't use the Staff of Magi or Cloak of mirroring, for example.
Party was essentially a shorty party: 20/18 gnome f/Illusion, 34 Mazzy, 36 Nephele cleric npc mod, 38 Petsy bard npc mod, 26 Xan sorcerer npc mod, 38 Alora swashbuckler npc mod with RR changes.
This older version of Spell Revisions changed the way spell shield worked, such that it is not an extra debuf defense and Imprisonment was a modified maze which made it rather well resisted by everyone. Thus there is typically only the spell shield layer defense and both enemy and player get to the breach point rather quickly.
1. The first fight with 2 Fallen Solar, Irenicus, Bodhi, Slayer Imoen and a bunch of other chaff was not too bad. The Solars are quite dangerous - as they will cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction among other spells and they hit pretty hard ranged/melee. MD was unique to them and basically strips almost all spells. Solars can see invisible and need +4 weapons to hit them. In my game they tended to ignore summons unless they can not go around or can't see party members, but summons do distract the demon chaff. Bodhi is pretty nasty with a bunch of increased power from various mods - so she needs to go next. Irenicus summons a Planetar, etc.
2. The pools had Balor/Meriliths/various other types that immediately gate in others. The Balor vorpal effect can be dangerous. Generally not too bad. In my game completion of pools only healed, not rested.
The final fight, however...
I set up with a number of traps + symbols stun(scrolls) + summons, mostly around the right side of the battle in order to allow a party shift behind to the right side. Only one Mordenkain's sword as that seems to minimize the enemy AI chance of casting death spell. I did not use time stop as Balthazar is not that bad if managed without timestop. Symbols had some very limited effect vs the chaff.
Initially I went full throttle after Bathazar with the intent to avoid him adding into Melissan's timestop hazard. But after hammering him with everything I had for about 20 rounds, he just would not go down from near-dead. So, I'm not sure what that was about (bug or kill ordering or such?). And by that time, the rest of the battle was a mess.
Sending a cleric with physical mirror or someone with a shield of reflection or summons can Distract Illasera, in order to stop her stripping and crippling another party member for a bit. She's very strong from one of the mods.
3. So I reloaded and immediately took out Illasera, which brought in Melissan, who summoned 2 Fallen Solars. Abazigail summons a Planetar and Sendai a Deva, with other chaff (Balors and such). My enemy kill focus was in order: Solars, Abazigal, Sendai, Balthazar (he seemed to die a lot easier this time-weird), and Yaga-Shura (and he took a tremendous amount to kill...)
Melissan casts a number of time stops which can be fatal to a unprepared party member. She also has this distance globe of blades that can be cast on a party member that does a lot of damage on insane for 2 rounds, and constantly renews her personal globe of blades and immunity. When the last of the 5 is dead she then summons a bunch of succubus (charm) and about 10-ish very strong archer demons that hit quite well. She only summons a few more periodically after this large amount.
I had a character with reflection be a decoy for a while but she was eventually killed with Melissan's time stop. Main character eventually did it better but needed some time to rebuff/heal as this battle took many turns.
Ultimately a couple of npcs were resurrected and no chunking during main the fight...but sadly the bard got chunked at the very end by Melissan's distance blades. I had everyone either beating on her or dispelling her buffs. And she took a while to beat down. Her MR had been reduced but she was immune to most spells except a couple of the higher level Bigby hand spells.
For the final battle I did not use time stops or wish spells (not enough wisdom anyways and had a mod that removed temp stat-boost potions). And I did not have a Planatar but did have one Deva, along with various other summons. I used clones right from the start (Vhailor's Helm for Mazzy), scrolls or contigency spells for main/bard/sorc/Swash and this immediately added a lot of extra help. The AC of the swash meant that its clone had pretty good survival in tanking as well as extra traps when possible.
One thing of note was that my main was wearing Roranach's Horn and that is a big help minimizing Balthazar's damage with 50% crushing resist.
So that's the story of what you might see in a less surgical fight. I've read some of the previous posts and I can see how some of those suggestions could be worth a try.