Windspear Hills *spoilers*
WebShaman
Member Posts: 490
Ok, a quick question to all you BG fanatics out there :
Doing Windspear Hills, is there any way (other than using the console) to NOT kill the Paladins-disguised-as-monsters and still get to enter the dungeon?
I have tried everything I can think of, and used just about every spell that could possibly be considered viable and...nothing. They remain monsters. So it doesn't look like there is a way to "turn them back" into paladins...or at least dispel the illusion (assuming that is what it is).
I even avoided them, and went to the dungeon, only to find that they are blocked!
So how do they get "unblocked"? Who clears out the debris so that you can enter the dungeon? And WHY when I have accepted the quest, is it not possible to enter the dungeon WITHOUT killing the paladins?
That brings us to the next question - just what spell in the Nine Hells was used to create this illusion? Because it is incredibly powerful...about as powerful as the one used in the Circus, I would say.
And who is creating these illusions?
Let us put aside for a moment the absolute horrible railroading here, and try to come up with an ingame reasoning for this.
Doing Windspear Hills, is there any way (other than using the console) to NOT kill the Paladins-disguised-as-monsters and still get to enter the dungeon?
I have tried everything I can think of, and used just about every spell that could possibly be considered viable and...nothing. They remain monsters. So it doesn't look like there is a way to "turn them back" into paladins...or at least dispel the illusion (assuming that is what it is).
I even avoided them, and went to the dungeon, only to find that they are blocked!
So how do they get "unblocked"? Who clears out the debris so that you can enter the dungeon? And WHY when I have accepted the quest, is it not possible to enter the dungeon WITHOUT killing the paladins?
That brings us to the next question - just what spell in the Nine Hells was used to create this illusion? Because it is incredibly powerful...about as powerful as the one used in the Circus, I would say.
And who is creating these illusions?
Let us put aside for a moment the absolute horrible railroading here, and try to come up with an ingame reasoning for this.
0
Comments
As for the reason behind treating the monsters (there are more than just ogres, there is also an ogre magi and a gnoll elite) suspiciously are the manner in which they speak (which is strange, because one would think that the illusion would be powerful enough to change that as well) - one of the replies from them obviously gives you a clue that they see your party as monsters as well, not to mention that the words that they use are not ones that would typically be used by an ogre!
And especially after the Circus quests, I don't know about you, but my Charname has become very suspicious of illusions, so any clues that may indicate such are immediately picked-up on.
It is also strange that to a Detect Evil (and Know Alignment) spells, that they do not "respond" to these spells (and magical abilities)...so that is one very powerful illusion!
1) What in-game mechanism are the cowled wizards using to monitor spell casting in Athkatla? Why does it only work in some areas?
2) What is the exact illusion spell that the guy in the circus tent uses?
3) How is it possible that many shopkeepers have infinite spells of identify at their disposal? If they cast them, how is that possible? If it's an item, why doesn't it exist?
4) How can Jon Irenicus cast so many spells so quickly in the cut scenes - but not when you finally fight him?
And so on. And so on some more.
You're also meta-gaming. Within the game, you shouldn't even suspect it's an illusion. Yes, it is railroaded, but an awful lot of the game is, for rather obvious reasons. (It's only in ToB that the railroading gets too heavy for me.)
4: Would you WANT to wait for him to kill them within the rules?
4: No, I would not. I was simply trying to point out that WebShaman's complaint is much ado about nothing.
Not that I did not kill them, in the end. You have to. You quite literally have no other choice, if you wish to find this "Firkraag"...
As for the Cowled Wizards, that is better explained in the FR Souce Books for Amn. This is not something that Bioware made up.
As for the Illusion, I am beginning to suspect that someone (or something) is powerful enough to make these illusions. The Gnome in the Circus alludes to such before dying (as he was obviously not powerful enough to cast such, and even says so along the lines of "I was promised...blah blah"). I also suspect the same Illusionist did the one for Firkraag.
So there is something connecting many things across the land, it would seem. Is it the Twisted Rune? This "mysterious" Hidden?
It really would have been interesting if one could have found and investigated this thing, instead of encountering it piecemeal.
As for Shops, obviously they are "simplified" in order for Charname and Co. to have easier access to them. Certainly it would be better if they were only available at certain times a day, with "limited" gold, etc...
And yeah, if one does kill them, one should be able to get access to all their treasure, or at least that in stock...I rather suspect that many of the "items" are hidden away, or in a special storage place, and they have it brought to you (this is not simulated ingame due to the added time, etc it would require).
The Fence in the Sewers is exactly something along this line that I suspect does this. Still, alone in the Sewers...definitely not a healthy place to be, awaiting for...who? Can't be many customers down there!
Problem is, they would also need their true seeing spell, without it they still think we are monsters and continue to attack, this part is without solution it would seem... !
It makes little sense to do what Firkraag did unless he wanted to make you a persona non grata in Athkatla, which in turn makes it all the more likely for you to go to Spellhold? Assuming you roleplay a "Good" character, and that is what the game was designed around - evil ones wouldn't necessarily bother to go after Imoen and maybe just not bother after seeing how powerful Irenicus is? - you are already in it to save Imoen, thus you are going to Spellhold, aka Irenicus anyway. Making the entire thing kind of moot for Firkraag. I guess you can save this narrative somehow by focusing on the fact that Red Dragons ARE irrational like that when they're slighted and getting back at Gorion is THAT important.
The most likely scenario was that Firkraag didn't just let you have the daughter like that. He'd probably send you to deal with the Alhoon and the Illithid, and in return he'll forgive Gorion's slight and return the daughter. That's the only thing that makes sense lorewise. Firkraag is 100% locked in some clandestine struggle with the Illithid. Illithid are subverting nobles, as we see with Jan Jansen's quest and the "Hidden", and Firkraag is roleplaying one, so when they tried to subvert him - thinking he was a normal human, they ended up biting more than they could chew and he in turn started going after them. This also explains the presence of Githyanki in the city. Lorewise, Red Dragons have an alliance with Githyanki, hence it's probable that Firkraag could have just called them to come to deal with their most hated enemy - something they'd do willingly. This is for instance why you see Hobgoblins in sewers, who happen to make up a bulk of Firkraag's forces, they're looking for Illithid Hideout. This is the reason why Tarnor the Hatchet Man is in the Temple Sewers etc - either to protect entrance if he works for Illithid or to guard it till Firkraag's main force comes to clean them out.
And to actually answer the question regarding illusion, again, it comes down to deadlines and unfinished content. Firkraag had more forces, but they were never implemented. There's at least another female elven mage who teleports out child of Windspear during kidnapping that we never see. On the basis of this, I assume that there must have been another section of the dungeon dedicated to wizards who work with Firkraag. Lorewise, Cult of the Dragon happens to consist mainly of powerful Mages, not all of them are necromancers. The cult offers its services to any Dragon willing to eventually undergo Dracolich transformation, which is basically their religion if we skip a few details. It's fairy common for powerful mages to show up at a Dragons doorstep and start placating him and offering him their services.
As for dispelling the illusion on time or some such. It's unrealistic. You're not having a reasonable conversation with Paladins who think that there are evil monsters before them. That's their entire shtick. Words & manipulations do not work. They're not gonna get brainwashed by, what they see as, an obvious evil individual because he suddenly started to speak eloquently. It's real-life equivalent to having someone boosted by "I see red" and their idea of righteousness charging at you. Yelling "wait!" is not gonna cut it. And it all happens quickly too.