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Did the Jester get a buff?

MurrayConfederacyMurrayConfederacy Member Posts: 188
edited November 2012 in Archive (General Discussion)
I was reading the manual and it seems that the jesters song has been changed so that instead of having a +4 save for the enemy it changes to -4?
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  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    edited November 2012
    No, the description was just fixed to what it actually does.

    EDIT: Actually, that's an error in the manual. It should say +4 penalty. >.<
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    One of those long, unending discussions we kept having about whether negatives were good or bad...
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Aosaw

    True, I think the standard was decided later.

    Doesn't help that the original games weren't consistent.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    The Jester already got a buff in vanilla, although records of the the old patch notes are hard to find.

    Sometime around level 10+ their song gains additional effects like causing enemies to fall sleep (prone) and or slowing them. The slow component is especially effective.
  • GygaxianProseGygaxianProse Member Posts: 201
    Tanthalas said:

    No, the description was just fixed to what it actually does.

    EDIT: Actually, that's an error in the manual. It should say +4 penalty. >.<</p>

    You want to roll high for Saves. So its a -4 penalty. To the roll.
    Aosaw said:

    One of those long, unending discussions we kept having about whether negatives were good or bad...

    lol. What is so confusing here??? Enemies save @ -4 vs. jester song.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    There was a (private) debate some months back about whether we should list bonuses to AC and THAC0 as -X (as an actual modifier to the value of Armor Class) or +X (as a numerical descriptor of the value of the bonus).
  • MillardkillmooreMillardkillmoore Member Posts: 150
    Aosaw said:

    There was a (private) debate some months back about whether we should list bonuses to AC and THAC0 as -X (as an actual modifier to the value of Armor Class) or +X (as a numerical descriptor of the value of the bonus).

    This was the worst part of AD&D. Sometimes positive numbers are good and sometimes negative numbers are good. The lack of consistency gets very confusing very fast.

    I can't imagine what bizarre, warped, insane thought process lead to the creation of THAC0.

  • Dragonfolk2000Dragonfolk2000 Member Posts: 387
    Millardkillmoore said:

    Aosaw said:

    There was a (private) debate some months back about whether we should list bonuses to AC and THAC0 as -X (as an actual modifier to the value of Armor Class) or +X (as a numerical descriptor of the value of the bonus).

    This was the worst part of AD&D. Sometimes positive numbers are good and sometimes negative numbers are good. The lack of consistency gets very confusing very fast.

    I can't imagine what bizarre, warped, insane thought process lead to the creation of THAC0.

    Probably actual GMs getting sick of players using OoC Knowledge.
    "Hey player? Roll a die."
    "What for?"
    "You'll find out after you tell me what you got on the die."
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited November 2012
    I have a theory. The guy who designed it probably wanted D&D to have limits, because it didn't make sense for the game to be based on a system that relied on trapping everyone in a world where you -always- had to work harder just to enjoy the finer points of game (besides, we already have mmorpgs for that). Perhaps he wanted D&D to be more about the journey itself rather than the destination, or perhaps he simply thought it was ridiculous if people kept playing even when their characters had reached godlike status and could shatter planets on a successful spellcast.
    Thus, THAC0 was born. Zero is the sweet spot - it is at this point that battles were at their most intense, causes were at their most compelling and where everything about the adventure finally began to make sense. +20 meant low levels, the start of the game, and -20 meant high levels, when the game should finally reach its end.

    It's a wonderful invention regardless, imo. How many games do you know actually know the value of a good ending?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited November 2012
    So is this something I should make a note of adding in my bugs section manual fix thread to change it to +4? In tutu/bg2 for me it says +2 under it for all levels of his abilities (that could just be something wonky I have installed).
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    No, it's staying at -4. I think we decided that penalties were negative.
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    edited November 2012
    Jester's song has currently these effects:
    Levels 1-14: Enemies must Save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus each round or be Confused for that round
    Levels 15-19: Same chance of Confusion as above, plus enemies must Save vs. Spell each round or be Slowed for that round
    Levels 20+: Same chances of Confusion & Slow, must also Save vs. Spells with a +2 bonus each round or be knocked Unconscious for that round
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Aosaw said:

    No, it's staying at -4. I think we decided that penalties were negative.

    Ok
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    Well Near Infinity tells me it's a bonus:)
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Some PnP positive buff spells actaully have a negative (bad) effect on armour class which could potentially make this even more confusing.

    I was advocating saying: -2 bonus to AC or +2 penalty, the second word of which indicates whether the modifyer is good or bad.

    There's no point in trying to idiot proof 2nd ed, its just not gonna happen. I have a degree in mathematics and have been playing for about 10 years, and I still get confused from time to time
  • MurrayConfederacyMurrayConfederacy Member Posts: 188
    @Pecca do you have a source for this? I have never heard of this before but welcome the news that Jesters aren't all that boring after all.
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    @MurrayConfederacy I've read that on some forum so I checked it with Near Infinity and it was indeed exactly same.
  • MurrayConfederacyMurrayConfederacy Member Posts: 188
    @Pecca that is indeed good news, thank you
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Argh! I'm still confused (perhaps ironically, as Jesters cause confusion)... Could someone clarify/confirm:

    1) Does the "save vs. spell with a +4 penalty" mean that enemies get a *penalty* to their saves i.e. it's *harder" for them to make the save then, say, +0 would be?

    2) Is this penalty/bonus (whichever of the above is correct) +4/-4 or +2/-2?

    Thanks!
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    Oxford_Guy said:

    Argh! I'm still confused (perhaps ironically, as Jesters cause confusion)... Could someone clarify/confirm:

    1) Does the "save vs. spell with a +4 penalty" mean that enemies get a *penalty* to their saves i.e. it's *harder" for them to make the save then, say, +0 would be?

    2) Is this penalty/bonus (whichever of the above is correct) +4/-4 or +2/-2?

    Thanks!

    Based on what was said here and on another thread, I'm 95% sure that the modifier to saves is in the enemies favour. So whether it's a value of 2 or 4, it's making it easier for enemies to make their save.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    TJ_Hooker said:

    Oxford_Guy said:

    Argh! I'm still confused (perhaps ironically, as Jesters cause confusion)... Could someone clarify/confirm:

    1) Does the "save vs. spell with a +4 penalty" mean that enemies get a *penalty* to their saves i.e. it's *harder" for them to make the save then, say, +0 would be?

    2) Is this penalty/bonus (whichever of the above is correct) +4/-4 or +2/-2?

    Thanks!

    Based on what was said here and on another thread, I'm 95% sure that the modifier to saves is in the enemies favour. So whether it's a value of 2 or 4, it's making it easier for enemies to make their save.
    Can anyone else confirm - both whether the modifier makes it easier or harder for enemies to save, and whether this modifier is actually a 2 or a 4? Thanks
  • MurrayConfederacyMurrayConfederacy Member Posts: 188
    edited December 2012
    @Oxford_Guy From Volothamp's Comeuppance:

    "Bard Song affects all Hostile creatures within 30 feet of the Singing Jester, with results varying by his level:
    Levels 1-14: Enemies must Save vs. Spell with a -2 bonus each round or be Confused for that round
    Levels 15-19: Same chance of Confusion as above, plus enemies must Save vs. Spell each round or be Slowed for that round
    Levels 20+: Same chances of Confusion & Slow, must also Save vs. Spells with a -2 bonus each round or be knocked Unconscious for that round"

    So it is indeed the enemies that get the bonus. The "penalty" is that the enemies get a bonus.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    MurrayConfederacy said:

    @Oxford_Guy From Volothamp's Comeuppance:

    "Bard Song affects all Hostile creatures within 30 feet of the Singing Jester, with results varying by his level:
    Levels 1-14: Enemies must Save vs. Spell with a -2 bonus each round or be Confused for that round
    Levels 15-19: Same chance of Confusion as above, plus enemies must Save vs. Spell each round or be Slowed for that round
    Levels 20+: Same chances of Confusion & Slow, must also Save vs. Spells with a -2 bonus each round or be knocked Unconscious for that round"

    So it is indeed the enemies that get the bonus. The "penalty" is that the enemies get a bonus.

    But Volothamp's Comeuppance was written prior to BGEE, and many things have changed, so I wouldn't rely on that resource to tell you how things are in BGEE, even though it does have some useful tips and tables.

    I still remain confused about the Jester's song in BGEE!
  • MurrayConfederacyMurrayConfederacy Member Posts: 188
    @Oxford_Guy Since Overhaul were under contract with Wizards of the coast not being allowed to change original game content, I seriously doubt that it has changed. I wish i knew where the game file was for it so I could check, alas I do not.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited December 2012
    MurrayConfederacy said:

    @Oxford_Guy Since Overhaul were under contract with Wizards of the coast not being allowed to change original game content, I seriously doubt that it has changed. I wish i knew where the game file was for it so I could check, alas I do not.

    You need Java installed to start Near Infinity. Near Infinity can be found here http://www.idi.ntnu.no/~joh/ni/NearInfinity.jar

    Once you confirm Java is installed (which it probably will be anyways), use near infinity. Open the chitin.key file found in the 0766 folder of BGEE folder.

    image
    image

    Click SPL on your left. You are looking for SPCL751a.
    On your right there will be a list of three different "Melee." This just shows different effects at different levels (they progress in power).

    image


    If you click on the top one you can see a screen that lists: confusion, display string, and play visual effect.

    image

    I believe if you click on confusion you can find the save throw, though I do not know for certain if the saving throws for the other two listings also have an effect. That I still need to test.
    Post edited by elminster on
  • MurrayConfederacyMurrayConfederacy Member Posts: 188
    @elminster thanks for the EXTREMELY detailed help (you are a good person), I have NE already but I could never find the jester abilities for some reason (hence the second part of your help was... very helpful).

    The confusion effect seems to be there, but what of the others? I am new at this so I may need some more help if possible? Thanks.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited December 2012
    MurrayConfederacy said:

    @elminster thanks for the EXTREMELY detailed help (you are a good person), I have NE already but I could never find the jester abilities for some reason (hence the second part of your help was... very helpful).

    The confusion effect seems to be there, but what of the others? I am new at this so I may need some more help if possible? Thanks.

    Confusion is the only effect up until level 15. In the second last picture you see how there are three different "Melee." So if you click on the second one in the list for instance you can see that its minimum level is 15 and that it adds a slow effect. Likewise clicking on bottom Melee is for level 20+, which adds sleep (along with having slow and confusion as separate effects). Personally I don't get why they are called Melee, rather than something that would make more sense.
  • MurrayConfederacyMurrayConfederacy Member Posts: 188
    @oxford_guy, having looked at the abilities in Near infinity with the help of @elminster (thanks! btw) I can confirm that the jester does follow what Volothamp's Comeuppance details.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    MurrayConfederacy said:

    @oxford_guy, having looked at the abilities in Near infinity with the help of @elminster (thanks! btw) I can confirm that the jester does follow what Volothamp's Comeuppance details.

    I've modified my jester save throws to be "-9" in near infinity (under confusion) and I've found that I now never fail regardless of the enemy (I don't actually use the ability much regardless). So I think the "2" originally listed is actually a +2 for the enemies rolls (beneficial for them).
  • MurrayConfederacyMurrayConfederacy Member Posts: 188
    edited December 2012
    @elminister I concur, in my limited experience 2 is a +2 and -2 is -2 (to whatever you put it to).

    I feel like I've just made the greatest character ever.

    image
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