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Sexuality in the Realms Answer from Ed Greenwood

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  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I won't close the thread if it remains civil. If things start getting "problematic" (a grad school word meaning "all jacked up"), I'll do what has to be done.

    That said, this thread really belongs in Off Topic. I'm moving it there now.

    Quartz
  • KnolandKnoland Member Posts: 206
    As a HUGE Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel fan I feel I MUST say something here..

    I am also a fantasy fan, D&D fan, Forgotten Realms fan, RPG fan and any form or fashion of this type. Buffy is a story of a chosen one, a young female "kid" with gained super powers and a chosen path of providing protection for humans against the undead and demonic. Buffy Summers entire story arc from season 1-7 takes you on a ride man... I mean it, You learn about her friends "the Scoobies" and about the watcher council, and about the dealings with vampires.. or The Vampire, Angel.

    My own life and age fell right in sync with hers/theirs. We watched her deal with High school and all the issues that we "deal" with there and we watch her graduate and even go to college. Then we all get to watch as she falls in love, again and again and has her heart ripped out again and again. We even witness the loss of her mother, many dear friends and the defeat of many antagonists.

    The story, the characters the development of everything about that world is fantasy. In one word Buffy is:

    EPIC

    elminsterARKdeEREHJolanthusMedullaOblongata
  • ARKdeEREHARKdeEREH Member Posts: 531
    Quartz said:

    Mungri said:

    Ward said:


    @Mungri Buffy is horrible, but that's entirely opinion based. Buffy is where stupid kids run around fighting dark evil cheesy monsters and while they do that obsess about their social lives.

    Oh right, and Baldurs Gate and other RPGs are so different to that in what way? You may as well start calling Lord of the Rings horrible next as well, OMG it showed Aragorn and Arwen kissing!
    Not gonna lie you're kind of exaggerating here man. LotR had a few romantic moments to embellish the main plot, shows like The Walking Dead are literally just soap operas with monsters.
    Maybe that's why I find the topic of sexuality in Baldur's Gate interesting, lol. One Life to Live was my favorite TV show of all time.

  • ARKdeEREHARKdeEREH Member Posts: 531
    edited November 2012
    I just noticed that this thread and the Minorities in Fantasy thread have almost the same number of total views, but that thread has been out for 19 days and this one was only posted 7 hours ago. They both have about 1,100 views. I think that speaks volumes to how interested people are in the topic of sexuality in Baldur's Gate if this thread got over 1,000 views in such a short period of time.

    MedullaOblongataMoira
  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    @LadyRhian I should bite my tongue, considering I somehow got away from this without getting banned. I even promised Aosaw that I'd leave.

    I just want to say one thing. I highly doubt many of the people who watch Buffy take it as philosophically relevant. There is no philosophy. It's a scifi horror show designed to do the same thing as every other show like it, appeal to a certain market and make money.

    It's another example of impulsive, ill-considering teenagers going on 'adventures' that you would expect adults to normally do. They love putting teenagers in adult situations, such as crime, horror, etc, rather than actual adults.

    I get tired of seeing immature shows of young, sexy, dark, scary, edgy people doing young, sexy, dark, etc, etc, etc things. I want to see real television, not shows which should of ended 7 seasons ago.

  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    I should also apologize as I didn't intend to seem as hurtful as I did. I do not take back my firm opinions.

    The fact of the matter is a small group of people in the world seem desperate to 'enforce' their sexuality and judging by the conversations on this forum, some of them are here.

    Their sexualities are not what annoys me and it isn't gay romances in the game that annoys me. It's obnoxious, self righteous, misguided attempts to somehow justify sexuality to people who do not care which direction you hang.

    Peace.

    Quartzbegolf00mibbles
  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,481
    @LadyRhian Thanks for posting this! how cool is that!

    As if such a thread needed justifying, this is game info.

  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @Ward Just a bit OT. Buffy appeals to teens primarily because of the dark edgyness and having the sorts of adventures adults have. Teens want to BE adults, after all. And to be honest. I'd rather watch that than some "real" Reality Show like Jersey Shore or Honey Boo Boo. (Guh, I feel like I should scrub out my mouth/fingers just for mentioning those two shows). But I have certainly enjoyed the Original season of the Real World (the one I feel was the most "real") because it wasn't about kids looking to be famous or acting out for more screen time. I also watched the San Francisco season of the show, and I kind of lost interest after that. Too many of the people after those years were there for the fame, not to be "real".

  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @Moomintroll That's why I originally posted it in "General" because it's general information about the Realms, the world in which the game takes place. I wish I could say that I am sorry that some people can't handle the information that Ed revealed about his world, but honestly, I'm not sorry. People have to face up to information they don't like all the time. This is just another example of that.

    MoomintrollARKdeEREHIcecreamtub
  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    edited November 2012
    @LadyRhian I didn't suggest reality television is better. I think that's worse. Real television to me though (highly subjective opinion) is old 1950s movies about the Middle Ages. I am not a big fan of the 'man plays the lead and the woman sits on his lap all quiet' thing but that was the time. I got nothing against gender equality, but again, limit.

    We can't have people asserting themselves over everybody else, over religion, race, creed, sex, orientation, house or political based opinion.

    The good thing about the good old days is, although the women had a certain 'place', they were treated in some of the highest regard. I don't want to necessarily say it took them two World Wars to appreciate what really mattered, but back then they seemed to be happier, thriving people. Nowadays the men and women treat each other like donkey.

    I also enjoy cartoons, there are several high quality cartoons like Johnny Bravo out there which just entertain me.

  • klatuklatu Member Posts: 108
    OT:
    @Ward
    Sorry for jumping in on this out of nowhere.

    Maybe the reason why some people feel the need to justify their existence here is because they are used to having to justify it everywhere else. It's unreasonable of you to expect people to completely decouple their interests/preferences/opinions-you-don't-like or even their anxieties and problems from their presence here.
    The alternative is not having a community at all.

    Or maybe you're just seeing phantoms, because I don't get why you feel so persecuted. I haven't seen anyone "force" their opinion on you at all.

    SophiaMedullaOblongataelminsterIcecreamtub
  • VintrastormVintrastorm Member Posts: 216
    edited November 2012
    Ward said:



    Nobody wants to have a constructive conversation about sexuality because NOBODY CARES. Live and let live.

    I care.
    Live and let live.

    booinyoureyes
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @Ward *Some* women were treated well in some sections of society, but TV was pretty unrealistic back then as well. That was the same time that pregnant, unmarried women were labelled "sluts" and/or sent away to birth kids where no one knew them. There was that whole "Madonna, Mother, Whore" divide, where the only way to be treated well was to be one of the first two. Men had all the freedom, and women very little. I'd still take today's society over then any day. I don't view it as somehow better or through rose-colored glasses. For a man, maybe that was a time when men had more freedom than today. For women... not so much.

    klatuMedullaOblongataMoiraswnmcmlxi
  • Medivh1234Medivh1234 Member Posts: 95
    edited November 2012
    I love it when we drag real life issues into fun video games.....

    there will always be the Yaoi\Yuri reading feminist nerd forcing the gender issue that nobody cares about and dryhumping the ancient idea that over the last 200.000 thousand years human males have had as much kindness as rampant Nazi Zombies... And that the majority of males exist to oppress people running around san fransico in gimp suits....

    and

    there will then always be the stoneage hypocrite looser thats feel oppressed by women since he does not have the brainpower to figure out that women like everyone else will try to find the best possible mate, and that he is about as attractive as a pile of vomit... Girls\women\ladies like attractive,smart,charming,skillful and resourceful men... Now that most women in the modern world have a choice in selecting a partner.... and suprise suprise.. those same men are not getting the ladies.. and hence the crappy humiliating "women have forgotten their place" that just makes us normal men laugh our ass off.

    Reality check people

    Everyone with half a brain could predict what the writers would say in this case, becouse most people wouldnt touch this subject with a 100 pole... there are allot of people out there with strong opinions. And i would "safe" it with a bland mixed way like they did...

    Who really though though they would say something like this...

    "monks are only allowed to romance other women, but they have allot of problem with small boys missing around the monk walkin grounds"

    "Homosexuals are Neutral Evil"

    "Males who make vomit faces when seeing two dudes kiss but get a 1 hours boner for seeing two elf girls kissing are Chaotic Evil and will burn in the 999 layers of hell"

    We can talk about whats realistic and everything, but this isnt game of thrones.....

    I personaly think its unrealistic and stupid that a game depicting a medival fantasy setting would be "uncaring about sexuality" but this is fiction... and its pretty unrealistic to summon gibberlings....

    I dont think BG EE is gonna go DragonAge2 on us and have rasheed asking our male protagonist to go feral on his ass.

    Besides... i guessing this attitude increase my chance of getting my two girlfriend elves ? hint hint BG2:EE ?

    QuartzARKdeEREHmibblesIcecreamtub
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @Medivh1234 Except that one of the two new male characters does happen to be bisexual. And as Ed himself pointed out in his reply- the Realms aren't compatible with real-world medieval times because it is a polytheistic culture, with different gods who expect different things out of their worshippers. Medieval Europe was monotheistic and therefore the church mandated a certain morality that everyone had to follow (sexually or otherwise).

    And I beg to differ that "most people wouldn't touch this subject with a 100 (foot) pole". There are plenty of people who have commented on and started threads about romance in the game. I think you are guilty of wishful thinking on this point.

  • Medivh1234Medivh1234 Member Posts: 95
    edited November 2012
    @LadyRhian

    I know that you are feverishly defending these opinions and trying to make arguments that these are logical non-bias facts in this universe but in no way affected by the personal opinions of the creator of that said universe.

    -.-

    You be sad to know that polytheistic culturs have been around the globe a LONG time before Monotheistic peeked its ugly head up about 4000thousand years ago.

    And while some few cultures, usally small ones tolerated somewhat "unnormal" sexual behavior this is a small... small minority... Most polytheistic religions was harsh and brutal and the punishment was usally death, and where are talking the males population now, women usally didnt have a choice in the matter.

    Now, this is a fantasy world and Ed is god, he can say anything

    But your saying straight up that this makes sense ? but think about just how many polytheistic religions there been over our timeline, and i can count on both hands how many of them was open and tolerant to sexuality.

    Now it comes down to this, how much human history , human behavior, and how much fiction and logic you will be using while "making" your universe..... Now Ed is intelligent enough to say these things becouse it makes enough sense while still being ambiguous enough to let the players decided their own idea about how perfect or unperfect this world works.

    Good RPG fiction YES.......... Realistic and logical NO

    But all this is in theory.. the only way to test your actual resolve is get dirty and think

    What if Ed said that there was a homosexuality BAn in Forgotten realms ? or that it didnt exist there in the first place.

    Now how "realistic" would that be, and the argument you would have with that other douche would go something like this

    @LadyRhian : there are 1\10 of the population with "abnormal" sexual preferences!!!
    --bla bla bla bla-- this makes no sense to not include those
    --bla bla bla bla-- this is not representing the world as we
    --bla bla bla bla-- THIS IS A equality issue as well as a civil rights issue!!!!!!!

    @Ward: Well all religions in the world is against it
    --bla bla bla bla-- Ed is the good here, this makes sense becouse its another universe
    --bla bla bla bla-- The gods in this universe removes homosexuality magicaly
    --bla bla bla bla-- Women are happier becouse they know their place in this universe

    Dont think you would be out defending his "universe" then to be honest :)











  • klatuklatu Member Posts: 108
    Ward said:

    We can't have people asserting themselves over everybody else, over religion, race, creed, sex, orientation, house or political based opinion.

    The good thing about the good old days is, although the women had a certain 'place', they were treated in some of the highest regard. I don't want to necessarily say it took them two World Wars to appreciate what really mattered, but back then they seemed to be happier, thriving people. Nowadays the men and women treat each other like donkey.

    Funny how you go from "please abstain from politicizing the discussion" to "women should stay in the kitchen".

    --

    @Medivh1234
    I dont't see @LadyRhian arguing for or against the state of the Forgotten Realms universe anywhere. She just conveyed Word of God information about it.
    Equality only becomes an issue when real people are not offered any means to play a character that they can identify with. The integration of characters who do not conform to sexual/gender norms certainly helps.

    --

    Thank you for the OP, @LadyRhian.
    You play D&D in a group, right? Do these kind of topics ever come up in your campaigns?

    MedullaOblongata
  • MedullaOblongataMedullaOblongata Member Posts: 434
    Awesome response from Ed Greenwood. Thanks for posting! Some of it was about what I expected, but I learned some new stuff too! n_n

    Sophia
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @Klatu I haven't actually played face to face with people since the Hobby shop I used to go to closed down about 10 years ago. I do most of my playing online now, as the Hobby shop was a far distance, and I don't even know where most of the people who used to go there ended up. When I did play in a non-online setting, we had a wide range of ages, from early teens to thirties and forties, so it honestly didn't come up. The younger players weren't interested in that stuff, and those older teens got all giggly and red-faced even at the prospect of romance. The older players presumably didn't bring it up because of the reactions from the younger set.

    Online, I did run an adult game with sex and relationships, and I ended up in the hospital for a while and spent a long time recovering, which killed the game, to be honest. I couldn't get online for months, and then my endurance and stamina were so low, I'd be online for like 10 minutes and have to go and lie down for an hour and sleep.

    @MedullaOblongata You're welcome! I'm sorry that some people on this thread apparently are upset because Ed Greenwood confirmed that the Realms generally accepts same-sex relationships, among others. I get the uncomfortable feeling that, if it had come out the opposite, they'd be crowing about it.

    MedullaOblongata
  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    edited November 2012
    klatu said:

    Funny how you go from "please abstain from politicizing the discussion" to "women should stay in the kitchen".

    @klatu Woman had a place, NOT OF MY DOING MAN. I didn't make the rules, I didn't say they had a place because I condone it. I said they had a place because THEY WERE MADE TO HAVE ONE THEN.

    You need to think before you speak. Not once did you even consider what I meant.

    That is political correctness. You have to be careful about what you say or else people will use their 'right' to be offended, because you're one of those people who purposely misrepresents what is uttered JUST so you can feel this offended. Some of you people are so hurt and cold. I may be hasty in my judgements, but you sir/ma'am are just absolutely jerkish.

    @LadyRhian I didn't disagree nor agree with what Mr. Greenwood said to you. I don't care for D&D lore myself. My issue isn't with the lore, you already know what it was and I don't need to get into it again.

  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    Allow me to repeat for unnecessary clarity. It is a STATEMENT of FACT that women had a place in the 1950s that they don't have now. These days women are expected to have a full time job and raise children.

    Calling me sexist for stating a fact is just sad man.

    Quartz
  • Medivh1234Medivh1234 Member Posts: 95
    edited November 2012
    @LadyRhian ok want me to list all the polytheistic religions that has done genocide against what they figured to be sexual deviants? As i said, count on two hands, you really want me to list the other side of the story becouse i dont got all year. If you as a Anthropology student dont know this , ill assume somebody needs more books before his exams...

    Those stories you mentions are cut and paste from the websites promoting gay\lesbian approvel with a history timeline, if you know anything about laws of Manu you would know that the people in question was often forced into "service" based on apperance. The Chinese history about same sex between men at least was probly the most least violent in history, but homosexuals was still forced to marry and have children. Greek male on male relationships are legendary but so is the Roman empire stance on homosexuality, that is rape on young men that where not citizence was a sign of dominance....
    Now you obviously read much more about gay\lesbian history than i do, and am sure you got more examples to give me if you really dug really down...

    Can you can tell me if all the young men in the greek army really wanted to shag their commanding officers back in Ancient Greece?

    I reject Ed Greenwood, not becouse i disagree but becouse i know what it is, its a bland response to a question with real life implications that goes way beyond the gaming world. Its his to make, and its his world to write. But i think he removes to much human nature and is giving the world a contructed feel.

    But just having this forum talk proves my point....

    I belive your lying, i think if Ed Greenwood basicly banned homosexuality from the entire Forgotten realms universe you react with a bit more than "ok well thats his choice, and thats, that"
    And am talking about a BAN, homosexuality dont EXIST in forgotten realms, you cant be homosexual... EVER...

    And am not so sure about that Anthropology part neither.

    But

    It would be funny, becouse then I would advocate the existance of homosexuality in Forgotten realms if he did , and you be calling me a Yaoi\Yuri reading feminist nerd


  • klatuklatu Member Posts: 108
    @Ward
    Do I have to quote you again? You said it was a "good thing" and that they "seemed happier".
    How the hell else is that supposed to be interpreted?
    Follow your own advice sometimes, mkay?

    @LadyRhian
    I'm sorry to hear about your health situation and your group breaking up.

  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @Ward Just gotta say, "They were MADE TO" have a place. And maybe that's what I object to. Not that they had this place, but apparently it was imposed on them from the outside, rather than them chosing to be there for themselves. I am all for personal choice, not being forced to accept such a place by culture or tradition. You know, if a woman wants to not work and be solely a stay at home mom, that's fine, it's her choice. But it should be her choice among many, not being forced into that role because she has little or no other choice.

  • trinittrinit Member Posts: 679
    @Ward
    at first i was annoyed, since your need to enforce your opinion on everyone else on this forum managed to derail discussion again (see what i did there? :D ), BUT reading this last post of yours... just made my day.

    i guess all of us live in some kind of fantasy or whatever, but yours sure made me feel good about myself as well as superior as heck. i'll not bother arguing- see ya, glad not to be ya! :)

    and moderators, if this is to offensive or whatever, delete it.

    Sornelminsterbooinyoureyes
  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    edited November 2012
    @klatu It was a good thing that they had a place in a way. If you knew the girls I knew, they're a lost cause. Just so you don't insult me again with your fallacies, that is a MASS GENERALIZATION, most of the young girls aren't like this today I hope atleast.

    However, many girls, especially teenagers and young adults, are in dead end. They're brainwashed from birth to be a certain way, buy certain things, think about sex in a certain particular way and drink and separate themselves from their parents.

    The same for boys too. We're all growing up in a world where our parents are told we need space, we get exposed to manipulative pop music which tells us to get completely plastered and think sex is fun and just nothing else.

    I would argue it particularly effects girls, but I could be incorrect here. I once saw a group of 10 - 14 year old girls skating in booty shorts and singing the song "I got a hangover" by Taio Cruz (I have mentioned before).

    Even though women did have a certain place that was imposed on them, THEY STILL DO. They are still manipulated, they don't seem anymore free than they used to. Men are in the same boat.

    Without being sexist, I would say that maybe women were atleast out of harm's way being housewives and such back then instead of being on the streets and drunk. Men were better off doing their stereotypical rubbish back then than being on the streets too.

    All in all the youth of today is not going so well, for everybody around. Men and women keep each other out of line these days. My ma says that in the 1950s the women kept the men in line.

  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    edited November 2012
    trinit said:

    @Ward
    at first i was annoyed, since your need to enforce your opinion on everyone else on this forum managed to derail discussion again (see what i did there? :D ), BUT reading this last post of yours... just made my day.

    i guess all of us live in some kind of fantasy or whatever, but yours sure made me feel good about myself as well as superior as heck. i'll not bother arguing- see ya, glad not to be ya! :)

    and moderators, if this is to offensive or whatever, delete it.

    What are you talking about? What did I say that entertained you? I was defending myself when klatu was horribly and purposely misrepresenting what I said to her just to get a reaction. I assume it's a her, does that make me sexist to assume your genders here?

    You're a sad little man to want to feel superior to anybody on this forum or here threads. Proves my point.

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