I think it might be helpful to look at this from the other side. Not ask why are these particular NPCs the ones the game assumes you finished BG1 with, but why they were kidnapped and dragged all the way to Amn. Let's look at what we know: (MASSIVE SPOILERS INCOMING)
-Irenicus wanted children of Bhaal. Therefore he would have had his minions kidnap CHARNAME and Imoen above and beyond anything else. -Dynaheir was investigating the Children (along with Minsc) and it wouldn't be a stretch for Irenicus to believe that Khalid and Jaheira were as well, both because of their Harper connection but also due to their association with Gorion, who knew more about the Children than most. -So you wake up in BG2 with the NPCs that are there because Irenicus captured 2 Bhaalspawn, and 3 people who knew a lot about them in case his ritual didn't work on CHARNAME or Imoen for whatver reason (Minsc was just incidental because they couldn't nab Dynaheir without getting him too). -Any other NPC in BG1 lacks this Bhallspawn connection (the only reason Irenicus cares about you) and would either have been killed or left behind by his minions when they captured you. -Dynaheir was probably tortured to death during an interrogation and we know that Khalid died in an attempt to 'awaken' Imoen.
So far, from Irenicus' perspective it makes perfect sense to have the starting NPCs in his dungeon.
As far as CHARNAME's reaction, remember that he/she is very confused when they first wake up and don't even recognize Imoen. The intro video to BG2 says that the attack that captured you 'blurred the lines between reality and dreaming'. So CHARNAME has good reason NOT TO REMEMBER what party they finished BG1 with.
For the NPCs reaction (assuming that you were evil and/or didn't have them in the party): Imoen and Jaheira both have good reason to lie to CHARNAME and say they were in the party even if they were not. Imoen always considers you a friend and is scared she can't escape without you. Jaheira wants to fulfill her promise to Gorion by keeping an eye on you, especially so if you are evil. Which leaves Minsc, who probably wouldn't remember his own name if somebody didn't remind him once in a while.
How about it @KryptBeowulf? Did I miss any of your plot holes?
Nice coverage of the plot holes, but the problem is that none of this explanation works its way into a playthrough with an evil character. I'd assume an evil character would later remember enough to piece together whether Imoen and Jaheira were lying or not.
@kilroy_was_here You make great points man, you do make the best arguments I've heard... Mythdracon is right too, but the biggest problem I still have is that (if I remember correctly, it's been awhile I won't lie but I remember always thinking this from '99) is that Jaheira and Minsc talk about traveling with you and joining in your adventures. I don't have the game anymore but I'm sure someone can pull up the conversations between CharName and the other two in the dungeon.
I think it came out pretty well for something I was making up as I went along. The interesting thing is when Jaheira and Minsc talk about what happened, from what I recall CHARNAME never says that he/she remembers those things, just about what they should do next. Unfortunately I don't have BG2 installed right now to double-check.
No, not necessarily, where the starting members and the starting members only are different, the main story would not be impacted (except if you removed Imoen, but I don't think many people who understand her link to CHARNAME would object to her being there).
Nice coverage of the plot holes, but the problem is that none of this explanation works its way into a playthrough with an evil character. I'd assume an evil character would later remember enough to piece together whether Imoen and Jaheira were lying or not.
What difference would it make by then, though? Presumably evil characters would ditch Jaheira as soon as they reached Athkatla, and you're not actually required to take Imoen with you after freeing her from Spellhold (which evil characters would do anyway, since it's in their own best interest to figure out Irenicus' plan before he comes after them again).
@kilroy_was_here You make great points man, you do make the best arguments I've heard... Mythdracon is right too, but the biggest problem I still have is that (if I remember correctly, it's been awhile I won't lie but I remember always thinking this from '99) is that Jaheira and Minsc talk about traveling with you and joining in your adventures. I don't have the game anymore but I'm sure someone can pull up the conversations between CharName and the other two in the dungeon.
It depends on the dialogue choices you make when you first talk to them. For example, my evil character kept Jaheira with her, but if you say you don't recognize her, these are her exact words (from dialog.tlk):
"At the behest of your slain foster father, my husband Khalid and I have kept an interest in you, though you have proven to be your own person in all things. Your...unique heritage has proven a magnet to adventure, for better or worse, and your foster father was right in directing us to watch over you."
At no point does this imply that she and Khalid were actually in your party. And you can't claim that you've never met them, since even evil characters would've gone to the Friendly Arm Inn at some point.
It's the same with Viconia: she clearly recognizes you even if she wasn't in your party, but that's because anyone traveling through Peldvale would've bumped into her.
It would be grand if parties did transfer and updates were made with dialogue and the dungeon cages scene. Alas, not altering certain story content likely comes into play. Irenicus' dungeon provides a large backdrop and set-up for the game. Imoen, too, is an integral plot point character. So killing her in BG1 or being evil and having her run away forever... it wouldn't work in transition either.
What I wouldn't mind seeing is some of these BG1 characters getting a fleshed-out and joinable companion treatment for BG2 as time goes on. Ajantis, Branwen, Xan etc. As DLC characters, mayhaps. I am uncertain if that would affect any 'no changing original story content' contractual agreements, but these folks play pretty minor roles in BG2. In fact, many of them are cameo appearances before circumstance in the game has you kill them/has them turn up dead. So elaborating on their stories, giving them options to live and get companion treatment doesn't seem like altering original content so much as offering the player the choice to re-recruit old friends or continue on with killing them/letting them die as the original content plays out.
Something I am interested in that relates to any possible 'don't change original content' clauses is how our new NPC companions are going to be handled in BG2EE. Neera, Dorn, Rasaad. BG2 is a game about interparty dramas, frictions, banters, and being a very lively and talkative bunch. Will Neera, Dorn, and Rasaad interact, banter, create frienships/alliances, break out into hostile fight, etc. with original content companions? I'd certainly hope so, to be on par with the original game's content for companions and interparty relations. Perhaps in getting permission to make new characters they get the rights to having those characters have a certain degree of interaction/influence on the game and the characters. But I'd find these BG2EE coming interactions to be more content-changing than, say, the aforementioned above and what others in this thread are asking about with regards to having dialogue/game-acknowledgement of their BG1 choices. With clever enough writers, anything can be explained away/acknowledged smartly without changing everything.
@Deviija: Admittedly, this is more of a personal preference, but I don't see anything wrong with the storytelling conceit that not every character in the Baldur's Gate narrative has a longer role to play. It's not that much of a stretch that certain party members only stuck with you until Sarevok was defeated, and that they'd see no reason to run down to Amn after you. Sometimes, when a character has completed their part in the story, it's best to just let them go.
@PlasticGolem That's lazy writing IMO, how can an sequel of the RPG genre be ok with totally blowing off what you did or did not do in the first game? It's unacceptable, it makes playing with a party of your choosing completely invalid, null and void.
I don't think it's lazy writing. Rather, it is the consequence of a decision to include characters and story elements from BG1 into BG2.
Because the writers didn't come to your house and watch you play the game, they didn't know what you did or didn't do, so they can't write a storyline around it. In principle, they could inspect your savegame file and determine certain things, but dynamically adapting BG2 to everything you could have done in BG1 would be an enormous -- and expensive -- challenge both from a story writing perspective and from a technical implementation perspective. Consider the fact that even within BG1, there is only limited reaction to your actions within the world. You can do lots of things that, logically, should provoke a reaction from characters in the game world, but they don't. There are only so many cases and conditions that are handled, and the story in BG1 was dead simple compared to BG2, with its multiple story lines and complex character arcs. If you know of a good way to implement the kind of continuity you want within the limits of computer game technical, financial and business constraints, you should definitely go into CRPG development and design, as your games would be awesome.
The other option, if you value continuity and lack of plot holes and handwaving over everything else, would have been to make a clean break with BG1: keep only your character and set BG2 in a new environment without reference to previous events or characters that could have occurred in more than one possible way.
Black Isle and Bioware couldn't possibly please everybody, but I think the design and story decision they made was pretty popular, and, far from lazy writing, was quite ambitious. It's not a literary classic by any means, but I can't think of many computer games where characters have that much depth and humanity, or with so many complimentary story arcs, either before or after.
What I wouldn't mind seeing is some of these BG1 characters getting a fleshed-out and joinable companion treatment for BG2 as time goes on. Ajantis, Branwen, Xan etc.
Be careful what you wish for. I once wished for Star Wars prequels, and then I got them and regretted it.
The characters in BG1 are so basic that someone else's idea of what a fleshed-out Branwen, Ajantis (who is actually in BG2 and dies by your hand, FWIW) or Xan may be so far different from your own that you'd be disappointed. Enough time has passed that you probably have your own ideas about what they are like, and those are likely to differ from what another writer comes up with, in much the same way as I pictured Anakin Skywalker as a heroic and likeable young man in his late 20s whose impatience and passion caused him to turn to the dark side, until George set me straight and let me know that he was actually a whiny teenager who turned to evil because he didn't get his way all the time.
We all know what Minsc is like, but if you strip him back to what was presented in BG1, you could have developed him into a bad-tempered, unsociable bruiser instead of a good-natured, moderately insane friendly giant without contradicting the source material. The Minsc we know is almost entirely a BG2 creation. Based on what is presented in BG2, Viconia could have been turned into a helpless damsel in distress, out of her depth among the surfacers: an evil Aerie, of sorts. The same goes for all the other BG1 characters who returned in BG2: they were nearly-blank canvases in BG1, but BG2 came out a couple years after BG1, and we didn't have over a decade to make up our own personalities for them before Black Isle and Bioware presented their versions of them to us.
Comments
-Irenicus wanted children of Bhaal. Therefore he would have had his minions kidnap CHARNAME and Imoen above and beyond anything else.
-Dynaheir was investigating the Children (along with Minsc) and it wouldn't be a stretch for Irenicus to believe that Khalid and Jaheira were as well, both because of their Harper connection but also due to their association with Gorion, who knew more about the Children than most.
-So you wake up in BG2 with the NPCs that are there because Irenicus captured 2 Bhaalspawn, and 3 people who knew a lot about them in case his ritual didn't work on CHARNAME or Imoen for whatver reason (Minsc was just incidental because they couldn't nab Dynaheir without getting him too).
-Any other NPC in BG1 lacks this Bhallspawn connection (the only reason Irenicus cares about you) and would either have been killed or left behind by his minions when they captured you.
-Dynaheir was probably tortured to death during an interrogation and we know that Khalid died in an attempt to 'awaken' Imoen.
So far, from Irenicus' perspective it makes perfect sense to have the starting NPCs in his dungeon.
As far as CHARNAME's reaction, remember that he/she is very confused when they first wake up and don't even recognize Imoen. The intro video to BG2 says that the attack that captured you 'blurred the lines between reality and dreaming'. So CHARNAME has good reason NOT TO REMEMBER what party they finished BG1 with.
For the NPCs reaction (assuming that you were evil and/or didn't have them in the party): Imoen and Jaheira both have good reason to lie to CHARNAME and say they were in the party even if they were not. Imoen always considers you a friend and is scared she can't escape without you. Jaheira wants to fulfill her promise to Gorion by keeping an eye on you, especially so if you are evil. Which leaves Minsc, who probably wouldn't remember his own name if somebody didn't remind him once in a while.
How about it @KryptBeowulf? Did I miss any of your plot holes?
You make great points man, you do make the best arguments I've heard... Mythdracon is right too, but the biggest problem I still have is that (if I remember correctly, it's been awhile I won't lie but I remember always thinking this from '99) is that Jaheira and Minsc talk about traveling with you and joining in your adventures. I don't have the game anymore but I'm sure someone can pull up the conversations between CharName and the other two in the dungeon.
"At the behest of your slain foster father, my husband Khalid and I have kept an interest in you, though you have proven to be your own person in all things. Your...unique heritage has proven a magnet to adventure, for better or worse, and your foster father was right in directing us to watch over you."
At no point does this imply that she and Khalid were actually in your party. And you can't claim that you've never met them, since even evil characters would've gone to the Friendly Arm Inn at some point.
It's the same with Viconia: she clearly recognizes you even if she wasn't in your party, but that's because anyone traveling through Peldvale would've bumped into her.
What I wouldn't mind seeing is some of these BG1 characters getting a fleshed-out and joinable companion treatment for BG2 as time goes on. Ajantis, Branwen, Xan etc. As DLC characters, mayhaps. I am uncertain if that would affect any 'no changing original story content' contractual agreements, but these folks play pretty minor roles in BG2. In fact, many of them are cameo appearances before circumstance in the game has you kill them/has them turn up dead. So elaborating on their stories, giving them options to live and get companion treatment doesn't seem like altering original content so much as offering the player the choice to re-recruit old friends or continue on with killing them/letting them die as the original content plays out.
Something I am interested in that relates to any possible 'don't change original content' clauses is how our new NPC companions are going to be handled in BG2EE. Neera, Dorn, Rasaad. BG2 is a game about interparty dramas, frictions, banters, and being a very lively and talkative bunch. Will Neera, Dorn, and Rasaad interact, banter, create frienships/alliances, break out into hostile fight, etc. with original content companions? I'd certainly hope so, to be on par with the original game's content for companions and interparty relations. Perhaps in getting permission to make new characters they get the rights to having those characters have a certain degree of interaction/influence on the game and the characters. But I'd find these BG2EE coming interactions to be more content-changing than, say, the aforementioned above and what others in this thread are asking about with regards to having dialogue/game-acknowledgement of their BG1 choices. With clever enough writers, anything can be explained away/acknowledged smartly without changing everything.
Because the writers didn't come to your house and watch you play the game, they didn't know what you did or didn't do, so they can't write a storyline around it. In principle, they could inspect your savegame file and determine certain things, but dynamically adapting BG2 to everything you could have done in BG1 would be an enormous -- and expensive -- challenge both from a story writing perspective and from a technical implementation perspective. Consider the fact that even within BG1, there is only limited reaction to your actions within the world. You can do lots of things that, logically, should provoke a reaction from characters in the game world, but they don't. There are only so many cases and conditions that are handled, and the story in BG1 was dead simple compared to BG2, with its multiple story lines and complex character arcs. If you know of a good way to implement the kind of continuity you want within the limits of computer game technical, financial and business constraints, you should definitely go into CRPG development and design, as your games would be awesome.
The other option, if you value continuity and lack of plot holes and handwaving over everything else, would have been to make a clean break with BG1: keep only your character and set BG2 in a new environment without reference to previous events or characters that could have occurred in more than one possible way.
Black Isle and Bioware couldn't possibly please everybody, but I think the design and story decision they made was pretty popular, and, far from lazy writing, was quite ambitious. It's not a literary classic by any means, but I can't think of many computer games where characters have that much depth and humanity, or with so many complimentary story arcs, either before or after.
The characters in BG1 are so basic that someone else's idea of what a fleshed-out Branwen, Ajantis (who is actually in BG2 and dies by your hand, FWIW) or Xan may be so far different from your own that you'd be disappointed. Enough time has passed that you probably have your own ideas about what they are like, and those are likely to differ from what another writer comes up with, in much the same way as I pictured Anakin Skywalker as a heroic and likeable young man in his late 20s whose impatience and passion caused him to turn to the dark side, until George set me straight and let me know that he was actually a whiny teenager who turned to evil because he didn't get his way all the time.
We all know what Minsc is like, but if you strip him back to what was presented in BG1, you could have developed him into a bad-tempered, unsociable bruiser instead of a good-natured, moderately insane friendly giant without contradicting the source material. The Minsc we know is almost entirely a BG2 creation. Based on what is presented in BG2, Viconia could have been turned into a helpless damsel in distress, out of her depth among the surfacers: an evil Aerie, of sorts. The same goes for all the other BG1 characters who returned in BG2: they were nearly-blank canvases in BG1, but BG2 came out a couple years after BG1, and we didn't have over a decade to make up our own personalities for them before Black Isle and Bioware presented their versions of them to us.