Fighter/mage multi-class vs. Kensai/Mage dual-class?
Djimmy
Member Posts: 749
Which one do you think is better for going through the whole Baldur's Gate saga(BG1(EE) + ToSC, BG2(EE) + ToB)? I also have another question. Why would someone choose a kensai/mage over fighter/mage considering the fact that kensai/mage cannot have 9th level spells, thus he/she cannot get Time Stop( or Wish, or Shapeshift...)?
Who do you think will win in a dual after the completion of the whole saga(meaning max level, best weapons etc...) f/m or k/m?
P.S. I didn't find a similar thread, so excuse me if there was one.
Who do you think will win in a dual after the completion of the whole saga(meaning max level, best weapons etc...) f/m or k/m?
P.S. I didn't find a similar thread, so excuse me if there was one.
- Fighter/mage multi-class vs. Kensai/Mage dual-class?282 votes
- Fighter/mage51.06%
- Kensai/Mage48.94%
Post edited by Djimmy on
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Yes, Kensai/Mage is better. And boring. And overplayed.
In fact, the perfect timing to dualclass would be Kensai 13/ Mage 28.
"Level 9 (with experience cap remover) - Black Blade of Disaster, Time Stop "
http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgateii/strategies/kensaimage.php
Edit: Maybe because it concerns BG2 without ToB...?
It's based with XP cap of 2,950k in mind.
In that scenario even single class mages were unable to reach L9 spellcasting.
Though in a dual at max level, the Kensai Mage will win.
And yes..I've actually dueled them to know this. Though it's more accurate to say, who got their time-stop off first wins. ( i had to disallow it to get a more accurate picture, since either could easily kill any enemy single in the space of 1 time stop).
Though I had a much easier time during the final battle with the F/M. Long after you've exhausted your PfMW and time stops, and your wish gambit failed, you can still effortlessly shrug off all those hits, where as the Kensage drops like a fly if you burn through your spells too quickly and fail on your 2nd casting of wish over a F/M.
Technically, the multiclass and dual-class perform both very comparably. The former has slightly better THAC0 (0 vs. 4) and access to fighter HLA's, the latter has more base damage (+4), more attacks via Grand Mastery, and more spells.
The multiclass, however, will be a lot more fun to play. It's a fighter/mage from the get-go and all through the saga. Why, it's even been made easier by the addition of elven chain!
The dual-class on the other hand forces you to play an unarmored fighter for 13 levels, a pure mage for even longer, and only then do you get your a fighter/mage. If you go with a full party, it will take forever.
Dual-classing was quick and fun in BG1. Seen over the span of the whole saga, it's just painful.
Multiclass is more fun to play, though. But the most fun is using Shadowkeeper to give you the kensai kit anyway.
This all said, however, I prefer the Fighter/Mage.
Human Kensai 10 > Mage 30: Base THAC0 of 11, 1.5 attacks - 3 Attacks with Grand Mastery, 4 attacks with dual wielding, +3 to hit, +3 to damage (so THAC0 of 8, 5 with Grand Mastery Bonus). 2 uses of Kai per round. 8/3/5/7/4 saves. 9D10 + 20 + Fighter Con bonus x 9 + 3.
This is the first breakpoint, where you only lose one mage level, there's no real downside longterm to a Kensai 10 instead of a Kensai 9.
Kensai 13 > Mage 28: Base THAC0 of 8 (+4 to hit, +4 to damage, so THAC0 of 1 with Grand Mastery), 5/3/5/5/4 saves, 9D10 +12 +15 HP, 4.5 attacks whilst dual wielding. 8 proficiency pips + 6 (3 of which are useful in boosting Fighter weapons).
And... That's about it, in terms of physical combat, as the Kensai doesn't get Fighter HLAs, and only picks up ten Mage HLAs. They have 6 more spells spread across spell levels 6, 7, 8 & 9.
Meanwhile the Fighter/Mage is always level 24/20 by the cap.
That's a no nonsense 0 THAC0, 3/3/4/4/4 saves, 2 attacks per round, 3 whilst dual wielding, 3.5 with specialisation. 12 pips, but can't do more than specialise (-1 THAC0, +1/2 attack), but can use any weapon. As an Elf, you get an extra -1 THAC0, 90% charm/sleep immunity, the opportunity for ~21 Dex, but lose out on the potential 18 starting Con - that means the Ken doll ends up with 20, and regeneration, but no more HP.
Speaking of, there's a great deal of nonsense with multiclass HP, but it's: [10D4 + 9D10 + 10 + 45] / 2, plus 9 levels of Fighter Con bonus (another +45).
Depending on armwear, they can either have 3 AC (bracers), or they can have +1 to hit, +2 to damage from weapon spec gauntlets (THAC0 of -2)
HLAs for the Fighter/Mage, we've got 11 HLAs, which is one more than the Kensai. For the Fighter half.
For the Mage half as well, you have another 7, so you have 8 more HLAs, and those HLAs can be either Fighter or Mage spells.
So, in practice, the Fighter/Mage will have: More HP, a better THAC0, more attacks per round (it's called Greater Weapon Whirlwind), a better AC, and with Critical Strike and Improved Haste, you're looking at Belm 9 attacks, all automatically hitting, all dealing critical hit damage.
The Kensai > Mage will have: 1 more level 6 spell, 2 more level 7s, 2 more level 8s, and 2 more level 9s. If they hit, which is less likely, then they will
The first and most important thing to bear in mind, despite the F/M's clear superiority, is that high level play is Rocket Tag. Whoever casts the first timestop *will* win.
Drawbacks on the multi-class: You can only specialize in a weapon class (the dual-class can in theory become a grandmaster in any melee weapon), you gain mage levels much slower towards the end (no 9th level spells until the end of ToB), and you miss out on the special Kensai abilities.
That being said, first time I finished SoA+ToB was with a Kensai(9)/Mage(x). As I said, a difficult choice. :-)
If you start playing a kensai, you won't dual class him until BG2 and you will have to suffer the kensai disadvantages.
Furthermore, it is more than probable that you'll be able to reassign your proficiencies when you'll transfer him to BG2.
(ie : for instance, for my Cavalier, I did not gave him two handed swords for BG1 because there is no Carsomyr for them that awaits to be taken).
Berserker/Mage is significantly better because the rage is a huge timesaver. It gives you a long list of immunities that you'd otherwise have to cast several spells to attain. Plus rage can't be dispelled like your spell based protections can.
For either dual class, you'd be a fighter for the whole of BG1 and at least the beginning of SoA. Mathmatically the best level to dual is 13. However, the practical gains are not all that great over dualing at 9. And dualing at 9 lets you regain your fighter abilities much more quickly.
The multiclass is probably your best bet though for a few reasons. Firstly there is no downtime, allowing you to play as a fighter/mage from start to finish. Secondly, you can be non-human. Which means you can be an elf or a gnome. Elves have resistance to charm and sleep, plus they can get 19 Dex with an additional bonus to THAC0 for bows. Which means when you run out of spells you can still kill things pretty well with arrows. Gnomes get shorty saving throws and the ability to be a fighter/illusionist. Which means your saves are really good and you have an extra spell per level. Either of those two races is probably better than the dual class options overall.
Yeah, I did that. Scroll on up.
Anyways, Kensai mage needs to burn spell slots on AC, has a higher THAC0, less HP, can't switch to a bow, can't benefit from Elf bonuses, and can't benefit from being a gnome either (Gnomes in this case have dramatically better saves, generally more spells/level, and have a superior intelligence for scribing).
The only differences are faster access to spells (level 8 instead of level 7 spells at SoA cap, level 9 at the start of ToB, by the time the multiclass picks up level 9 spells, you're up to level 25) and grand mastery. These do not offset a base THAC0 difference of 8+ at the end of the game (and already +1 over an elf F/M at the end of SoA) or the HLAs you lose - especially Fighter HLAs.
The Kensai mage is at best a short term route to power, it's sort of overrated. It may be notionally better than a pure mage at cap (except Wild Mage), but it's most certainly not a rival to a Fighter/Mage.
The only portion of the game i would see a multiclass F/M stronger, is maybe towards the end of ToB, when you got all those juicy fighter abilities to help you out and you have finally reached TimeStop and all the other good spells. Otherwise, Kensage, using the mass scribe scrolls trick, is an absolute powerhouse in SoA, very important factor especially if you're doing a no-reload challenge. And i'm pretty sure a pure Kensai with Shield Amulet is quite a bit stronger than a fighter/mage in BG1.