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Fighter/mage multi-class vs. Kensai/Mage dual-class?

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  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited December 2012
    Kaigen said:

    Honestly, trying to duel these characters would be pointless, as it would go to whoever got off their Time Stop first. Two 9th level spells is enough for Time Stop + Improved Alacrity, at which point whoever actually got the Time Stop off proceeds to strip the other of their protections and rip them to shreds.

    Nope. An example? A Chain Contingency that triggers at 50% hp with PfMW+Stonskin+Invisibility.
    And you wasted your only Time Stop.
    Kaigen said:

    As far as Imp. Haste vs. Greater Whirlwind goes; I'd point out that Greater Whirlwind is far more plentiful, and gives you more flexibility in your level 6 spell slots, but at this point we're probably cheesing Wish too (and before you say anything, Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist gets 3 9th level spells at cap, so they can have Time Stop + Imp. Alacrity + Wish), so spells per day becomes an irrelevant consideration as well.

    First, there are many items that can grant Improved Haste (Ring of Gaxx anyone?).
    Second, the Wish trick is kinda hard to accomplish for a F/M of any kind. How many PI do you think you can create? If you fill ALL your lvl7 with PI you still have 4 chances... (3 PI + 1 from pc)
    Kaigen said:

    The only other HLA worth talking about is Critical Strike, and that's because the F/M can do Imp. Haste + Critical Strike for ten double damage attacks in a round. Sure a lot of bosses have "helmets," but a lot of the demonic minions they summon for support don't.

    Again, you can't reach 10 apr with Improved Haste. Unless you use Belm ( :/ )
    The real strong point of Critical Strike is that makes you land every strike (since they are critical hits).
    But as regards damage vs a target immune to them, Kai is much better.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,287
    edited December 2012
    Fighter/mage
    It seems to me that the question of who would win in a duel between maxed F/M and Kensai/Mage has been answered: whichever successfully casts Time Stop first. If there's some sort of advanatage that allows one to beat the other to the punch, maybe that's worth considering.

    But in the end, we're nearly all of us playing a SP game versus its monsters and villains, and the two classes are so nearly on par that it's really not going to make a helluva lot of difference.

    I'm a little more curious as to how people play these classes, with respect to buffed up/heavily armored versus no heavy armor and spellcasting. That may well evolve over the course of the entire saga for many, I realize.

    I mean, in BG:EE my Fighter-Mage goes commando (now at 5/5 with robe of the archmagi), and he dual-wields longswords (eventually katanas and scimitars as well) and during combat he spellcasts mainly Glitterdust, Blind, and Slow (other party members are also at work providing other staple spells such as Sleep, Horror, Hold, and Command). I'm gonna also have a go with Ray of Enfeeblement for enemy tanks (presumably heavily armored characters will be immobilized, right?). Ghoul Touch unfortunately doesn't work very well until THACO is quite low. (I wonder how well this would eventually work with Tenser's, though...?) Also, one is forced to continue using its 'hand' as the martial attack weapon until its duration expires.

    As my character entrs BG2 the spell choices will broaden. I can use sequencers and whatnot, etc.

    This should perhaps be a separate topic, but I think in some ways the more relevant question is how do you use these two classes tactically? And is there an advantage to using F/M and K/M in this respect?

    Oh--one other thing about the duel between the two classes. I know the question was who would win at the end of the game. But arguably for most of the game (well, 27 levels of it, anyway)... Fighter-Mage. And it's a tie at the end. So....

    Oxford_Guy
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Fighter/mage
    I am accused of bias on my part, yet all I have provided is data. You are of course welcome to believe and play as you will, I have no interest in convincing you, nor in your play preferences.

    @SpaceInvader - You're quite right, I did forget Dispel Magic. It's rather irrelevant in the face of the whole "Timestop" quickdraw issue (I'm not sure how your proposed contingency would work out against a GWW in Mindflayer form) but it is a big bonus in favour of the pure mage I hadn't considered.

    Whilst yes, AC is not much of a consideration, the fact that the Kensai only has a THAC0 of -2 with a +5 sword and 20 Strength, which means that they are twice as likely to miss a target with -3 AC than the Fighter/Mage (And even without the AC 3 Bracers, a Ring +2, Ring o' Gaxx, 21 Dex, and the Bally Helm you're looking at -5). This is significant enough to note as a difference between the two.

    As a side question, out of the gear available for ToB, what assumptions should be made about equipment? Cloak of Mirroring, Ring of Gaxx, Robe of Vecna?

    And as a cheesier side question, Cloak of Mirroring + Hardiness x3, what still works on the character?

  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749


    All in all, the fact that we argue so intensely over such a minor aspect just goes to show you how great, engaging and immersive this game is!

    Right you are and that's nice. :)

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited December 2012
    Lemernis said:

    It seems to me that the question of who would win in a duel between maxed F/M and Kensai/Mage has been answered: whichever successfully casts Time Stop first.

    Actually no, I made the example of the Chain Contingecy that can save you from that situation. And I know at least other 2.
    Lemernis said:

    Oh--one other thing about the duel between the two classes. I know the question was who would win at the end of the game. But arguably for most of the game (well, 27 levels of it, anyway)... Fighter-Mage. And it's a tie at the end. So....

    That's your opinion :)
    Imo it goes like this:

    - Lower levels: till the Kensage doesn't get his fighter skills back, the F/M is obviously superior.

    - Mid levels: when he reaches lvl14 on his Mage dual-class, the Kensai/Mage is far superior to the F/M.

    - Epic levels: both classes reach their full potential, the F/M can fill the gap of fighting skills with the Kensai by using HLA, but still has a far less wide spell repertoire.

    - Removing XP cap: F/M > Kensage.
    Pantalion said:


    @SpaceInvader - You're quite right, I did forget Dispel Magic. It's rather irrelevant in the face of the whole "Timestop" quickdraw issue (I'm not sure how your proposed contingency would work out against a GWW in Mindflayer form) but it is a big bonus in favour of the pure mage I hadn't considered.

    Mindflayer+GWW? Contingency: See enemy - Invisibility.
    PS. If the Mindflayer weap is +1, you'll be immune due to the Hells Trials ability.
    Pantalion said:

    Whilst yes, AC is not much of a consideration, the fact that the Kensai only has a THAC0 of -2 with a +5 sword and 20 Strength, which means that they are twice as likely to miss a target with -3 AC than the Fighter/Mage (And even without the AC 3 Bracers, a Ring +2, Ring o' Gaxx, 21 Dex, and the Bally Helm you're looking at -5). This is significant enough to note as a difference between the two.

    Nope :)
    Kensai13/Mage28: thac0 base of 8 at lvl13, +4 bonus for 22 STR (18+1Tome+1Lum's Machine+2Hell Trials, or Fire Giant Belt, or the long sword that sets it to 22 - depends on your choices), +3 for Grand Mastery in 1 weap at choice (now fixed), +5 for a +5 enchanted weapon, +3 for Kensai class.
    Total: -7 thac0 with Main Hand / -5 with Off Hand
    Pantalion said:

    As a side question, out of the gear available for ToB, what assumptions should be made about equipment? Cloak of Mirroring, Ring of Gaxx, Robe of Vecna?

    And as a cheesier side question, Cloak of Mirroring + Hardiness x3, what still works on the character?

    1) Cloak of Mirroring is in the fixlist. And there are many ways to make aoe spells to ignore MR.
    2) Same for Hardiness, it won't stack anymore.

    athanas
  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749
    edited December 2012
    Let's discuss a battle between these two classes without Time Stop or Wish. I think GWW cannot be outmatched by any other attack considering that it is an instant spell-like ability that cannot be dispelled(+ Mind Flayer form... it is devastating. Not sure if Intelligence drain can be stopped by any means). I know Robe of Vecna will make Improved Haste near instant cast, but still... The longer period of haste is not that relevant in one on one cuz the duel would be a quick one.

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited December 2012
    If you know it then why you even compare them? lol
    Improved Haste with Vecna's Tunic + Amulet of Power has a casting time of 1. Like a Magic Missile, just saying...
    But it lasts 31 (31!) rounds when casted by a lvl28 Mage.
    As regards dispelling it... Well, you want me to calculate the % of a lvl20 Mage to dispel a lvl28? xD

    Djimmyathanas
  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    Kensai/Mage
    Why the hell are people discussing PvP when the games is and always will be PvE??

  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749

    If you know it then why you even compare them? lol
    Improved Haste with Vecna's Tunic + Amulet of Power has a casting time of 1. Like a Magic Missile, just saying...
    But it lasts 31 (31!) rounds when casted by a lvl28 Mage.
    As regards dispelling it... Well, you want me to calculate the % of a lvl20 Mage to dispel a lvl28? xD

    I don't know for sure. I am just gathering various points of view as well as facts. What about pause between "casting" a spell-like ability(like GWW) and then a spell? Is there a pause like between casting of spells. About the dispell, I agree. Fighter/mage can cast Imp Haste too, so why are we talking about Imp Haste at all. It lasts longer than GWW but provides lower number of attacks and the latest is what counts in terms of duels that are short lasting. Another thing is that Illithid form + GWW( + Critical Strike for always hitting). Is there a save against intelligence drain or is there something that stops it. I haven't seen such a protection so far.

  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    Kensai/Mage
    Djimmy said:

    If you know it then why you even compare them? lol
    Improved Haste with Vecna's Tunic + Amulet of Power has a casting time of 1. Like a Magic Missile, just saying...
    But it lasts 31 (31!) rounds when casted by a lvl28 Mage.
    As regards dispelling it... Well, you want me to calculate the % of a lvl20 Mage to dispel a lvl28? xD

    I don't know for sure. I am just gathering various points of view as well as facts. What about pause between "casting" a spell-like ability(like GWW) and then a spell? Is there a pause like between casting of spells. About the dispell, I agree. Fighter/mage can cast Imp Haste too, so why are we talking about Imp Haste at all. It lasts longer than GWW but provides lower number of attacks and the latest is what counts in terms of duels that are short lasting. Another thing is that Illithid form + GWW( + Critical Strike for always hitting). Is there a save against intelligence drain or is there something that stops it. I haven't seen such a protection so far.
    Protection from Magic Weapons completely stops Int drain (i did a google search just now to be sure). And since every respectable opponent and his mother will have that on, it's pretty hard to abuse Mind Flayer form.

    athanas
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125

    Why the hell are people discussing PvP when the games is and always will be PvE??

    Because soon or later they will put a PvP Arena option in the Black Pits! è_é

  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749
    @AlexDeLarge I was asking about the actual draining(and not hitting) part. It is clear that you cannot drain if you cannot lay a hit. Last question was kinda off-topic btw.

  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    edited December 2012
    Kensai/Mage
    http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/threads/mindflayer-attack-int-drain-is-stopped-by-6th-level-spell.1029/ according to this guy it stops the INT drain.

    Why the hell are people discussing PvP when the games is and always will be PvE??

    Because soon or later they will put a PvP Arena option in the Black Pits! è_é
    Oh yeah, that would be terribly fun. Everyone will either pick a Kensai/Mage or a F/M, since nothing else can compete with their power.

    Pantalion
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited December 2012
    @AlexDeLarge
    It works like this: the lvl9 transformation spell in Mindflayer gives you the creature appearance, adds 1 innate ability and puts the item MINDFLAY.itm in your weapon slot.
    Now, this item is a weapon that, when hits, drains INT points.
    Since it is magical, PfMW can protect you from it nullifying it's effect.

    EDIT:


    Oh yeah, that would be terribly fun. Everyone will either pick a Kensai/Mage or a F/M, since nothing else can compete with their power.

    By saying so you just look at the obvious implications of making a certain class :)
    Even a Monk could win vs Mage knowing the right tactics/items.

    Post edited by SpaceInvader on
    vekkth
  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    edited December 2012
    Kensai/Mage
    Sounds about right. I guess you could still abuse it with Time Stop - > Remove enemy spell protections /w Spellstrike/Breach etc -> Shapechange MF - > Whack away at him. I forgot, do you still keep the previous buffs (like Imp Haste) after you Shapechange? Also, i don't think you can use Fighter HLA's after you shapechanged into another form, that would make no sense.

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited December 2012

    I guess you could still abuse it with Time Stop - > Remove enemy spell protections /w Spellstrike/Breach etc -> Shapechange MF - > Whack away at him.

    Nope. You have to wait for the end of Time Stop to have the Breach/whatever catch the target. Same as regards True Sight.
    Those spells are under the effect of Time Stop.

    athanas
  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749

    Sounds about right. I guess you could still abuse it with Time Stop - > Remove enemy spell protections /w Spellstrike/Breach etc -> Shapechange MF - > Whack away at him. I forgot, do you still keep the previous buffs (like Imp Haste) after you Shapechange? Also, i don't think you can use Fighter HLA's after you shapechanged into another form, that would make no sense.

    Fighter HLAs can be used after shapechange. That makes perfect sense to me. You keep your skills and gain more.

  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    Kensai/Mage

    I guess you could still abuse it with Time Stop - > Remove enemy spell protections /w Spellstrike/Breach etc -> Shapechange MF - > Whack away at him.

    Nope. You have to wait for the end of Time Stop to have the Breach/whatever catch the target. Same as regards True Sight.
    Those spells are under the effect of Time Stop.
    Oh yeah, you're right. It's been over an year since i completed ToB, don't remember everything properly.
    Djimmy said:

    Sounds about right. I guess you could still abuse it with Time Stop - > Remove enemy spell protections /w Spellstrike/Breach etc -> Shapechange MF - > Whack away at him. I forgot, do you still keep the previous buffs (like Imp Haste) after you Shapechange? Also, i don't think you can use Fighter HLA's after you shapechanged into another form, that would make no sense.

    Fighter HLAs can be used after shapechange. That makes perfect sense to me. You keep your skills and gain more.

    Funny, because it makes zero sense to me. You turn into a completely different creature, you shouldn't be able to use any of your old abilities. You can't cast any mage spells while under MF form, so why should you be able to use GWW/Crit strike etc. If it's not fixed yet, i'm sure they will change it once BG2EE comes out.

  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749

    I guess you could still abuse it with Time Stop - > Remove enemy spell protections /w Spellstrike/Breach etc -> Shapechange MF - > Whack away at him.

    Nope. You have to wait for the end of Time Stop to have the Breach/whatever catch the target. Same as regards True Sight.
    Those spells are under the effect of Time Stop.
    Oh yeah, you're right. It's been over an year since i completed ToB, don't remember everything properly.
    Djimmy said:

    Sounds about right. I guess you could still abuse it with Time Stop - > Remove enemy spell protections /w Spellstrike/Breach etc -> Shapechange MF - > Whack away at him. I forgot, do you still keep the previous buffs (like Imp Haste) after you Shapechange? Also, i don't think you can use Fighter HLA's after you shapechanged into another form, that would make no sense.

    Fighter HLAs can be used after shapechange. That makes perfect sense to me. You keep your skills and gain more.

    Funny, because it makes zero sense to me. You turn into a completely different creature, you shouldn't be able to use any of your old abilities. You can't cast any mage spells while under MF form, so why should you be able to use GWW/Crit strike etc. If it's not fixed yet, i'm sure they will change it once BG2EE comes out.
    HLAs are Divine powers and no metter what form you are you have the divine part. This is my point of view and it may seem wrong to you but I think this should not be "fixed" in BG2EE.

  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    Kensai/Mage
    All the mage HLA's are also divine powers, and you can't cast them while shapechanged. Just admit it is your own bias wanting to abuse the F/M shapechange combo.

    Djimmy
  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749

    All the mage HLA's are also divine powers, and you can't cast them while shapechanged. Just admit it is your own bias wanting to abuse the F/M shapechange combo.

    Point taken. Perhaps that is what I was trying to do, but still, let BG2EE allow both FHLAs and MHLAs to be utilized while shapechanged. :)

  • theemastertheemaster Member Posts: 1
    Btw.. you guys should update the wiki

    http://www.playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Dual_and_Multiclassing

    Especially you.. "AlexDeLarge" I'm oft to try a F/M combo :)

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