In my opinion, Dorn still isn't better than Kagain... Of course 19 Str is brutal... but Dorn is much more killable than Kagain, who regenerates with 20 of Constitution. You give Gauntlets of Dexterity to the dwarf, and he becomes the best tank of the game.
So, I don't think Dorn is over power. It's Rasaad and Neera that are weaklings.
Kagain regenerates 1 hp/minute, which is... well, pretty useless actually.
It saves potions, and healing spells for other party members. Also, when resting or traveling, he fully heals. Also if you give him the constitution tome or Buckley's buckler, or both, you increase his regeneration rate and give him MORE hit points.
not really... he regenerates the same amount over 8 minutes that a single cure light wounds can heal. resting and travelling part is cute, but compared to the hurt other fighters can bring down (Shar-Teel with a strength spell, for example), it's not nearly enough - they can quite possibly kill enemies before getting damaged... though with the the addition of 19 STR belt, the scales have possibly tipped somewhat in Kagain's favor. also, even with 21 con, you only regenerate 1 hp/50 sec.
don't misunderstand me, regeneration is badass - in BG2, with little things like 1 hp/3 secs.
on hit points, my personnal stance is somewhere along the lines of "if you don't die in a fight, it's enought". even Shar-Teel or Monty has a hard time getting damaged so much that healers can't "pick up the pieces", even on insane.
not really... he regenerates the same amount over 8 minutes that a single cure light wounds can heal. resting and travelling part is cute, but compared to the hurt other fighters can bring down (Shar-Teel with a strength spell, for example), it's not nearly enough - they can quite possibly kill enemies before getting damaged... though with the the addition of 19 STR belt, the scales have possibly tipped somewhat in Kagain's favor. also, even with 21 con, you only regenerate 1 hp/50 sec.
don't misunderstand me, regeneration is badass - in BG2, with little things like 1 hp/3 secs.
on hit points, my personnal stance is somewhere along the lines of "if you don't die in a fight, it's enought". even Shar-Teel or Monty has a hard time getting damaged so much that healers can't "pick up the pieces", even on insane.
Considering I spend a lot of time scouting ahead with an invisible Montaron or a stealthy Montaron, I find that I have plenty of time for his regeneration to be noticeable. Perhaps I am playing wrong, but in Durlag's tower I frequently had to run away with Dorn or Montaron because they were just so fragile...Kagain kept fighting, and then afterwards when I used my healing spells on the other two Kagain just sits there with 'nah, I'm good'. I eventually got a lot of healing once Xzar hit level 5 or 6 cleric, but I still valued Kagain's regeneration as I de-trap and scout Durlag's tower.
Also, I don't prepare all healing spells, so I try and use them sparingly. I prepare half Cure light wounds as 1st level, but I also prepare command and occasionally doom. I feel like I am benefiting by getting more non-healing spells, purely because I don't have to worry about Kagain.
Also, considering the spell Strength wouldn't change Shar-Teel's actual strength bonuses (it sets it to 18/50, which she effectively already has) A little confusion here, the Strength spell says it sets your Strength to 18/50, and lower it if it is higher, but according to a spells reference I found it actually would raise it? Clarification on that please...Either way, the Spell strength benefits Kagain even more as it sets him from 16 to 18/50, which makes him as brutal as Shar-Teel, if not more so because he is more survivable.
Nobody mentioned Kagain's 20 CON and Coran's 20 DEX and 3+ in Bows as OP stuff. Lmao
As anyone ever thought that MAYBE Coran and/or Kagain just happened to find some magic tomes before they joined up with you? Coran is a decently leveled (albeit low in scope of the entire BG Saga) character, and could have found one previously in his adventures. Kagain had a bunch of mercenaries and could have had one bring it to him/pay him with it (although he probably would have preferred gold). And even then, as a level one character you can theoretically get the Constitution tome with a simple sanctuary spell and some good timing. It is highly possibly, considering we KNOW that there are 3 wisdom tomes, that there are more than 1 Constitution tome and more than 1 Dex tome in the world. OP? I don't think so. Very very good? Absolutely!
Nobody mentioned Kagain's 20 CON and Coran's 20 DEX and 3+ in Bows as OP stuff. Lmao
As anyone ever thought that MAYBE Coran and/or Kagain just happened to find some magic tomes before they joined up with you? Coran is a decently leveled (albeit low in scope of the entire BG Saga) character, and could have found one previously in his adventures. Kagain had a bunch of mercenaries and could have had one bring it to him/pay him with it (although he probably would have preferred gold). And even then, as a level one character you can theoretically get the Constitution tome with a simple sanctuary spell and some good timing. It is highly possibly, considering we KNOW that there are 3 wisdom tomes, that there are more than 1 Constitution tome and more than 1 Dex tome in the world. OP? I don't think so. Very very good? Absolutely!
Unlike Edwin which is a better wizard then CHARNAME, Dorn is not a better fighter. So I don't think he is op. He is great though. But there're many other great fighters in the game. Which might even get better then Dorn.
Oh please... if we're talking OP original characters I need only point you to Minsc and Edwin. Dorn is fine, and he's pretty much a slow-progressing glass cannon in terms of hitpoints versus damage-dealing. ...
But Dorn? He's not exactly shrugging off blows and while he's offensively powerful, he often comes close to death (and in reloads) more often than Neera does, and I've got him in Ankheg armor at this point. He is one of the slower progressing NPC's due to using the Paladin XP chart, so I don't think he's particularly unbalanced. My bard and Imoen both have 2-3 levels up on him already.
I agree with @DMC, Dorn is a potent damage dealer but is a glass cannon. I compare him to Minsc. Difficulties in getting his AC high initially, fragile HP early-on (I'd say he tanks no better than my swashbuckler in my other save game, and only then because he can wear a helmet), but he hits like a freakin' truck. Actually, Minsc even gets a little more HP than Dorn, which I guess makes up for Minsc having a touch less strength.
Since we keep bringing up Rasaad (and I've used him more), let me say that Rasaad was pretty terrible through level 1 and 2, but once he got sling proficiency he was better, and then at some point a level or two later I noticed he was starting to do pretty well in melee. He tears up ranged creatures and magi starting around level 6, and his speed has come in handy on multiple occasions. Also, level 6 for Rasaad is a different beast in terms of XP than level 6 for Dorn. Rasaad hits his high point late-game, but it's easier to get him there than some classes.
Personally, I've found that every character can be made to work in BG if you are inclined to their personality/side quests/flavor. Garrick is bad, but I've beaten the game with him in my party before. Also, about the time you've hit the late-game content you've just about seen the crest of effectiveness from fighter-types (as I'm discovering the hard way) when you start going up against fully-buffed spellcasters. Final thought: I usually favor raw HP a little bit over brutal attack effectiveness, so some of my favorite fighter-types in the game have been Kagain and Khalid (Ajantis counts here due to Lay on Hands). Say what you will, but Khalid is one of the best tanks in the game, especially for a good-aligned party (not one of the best damage-dealers, although I put the 19 STR belt on him and now he rocks).
I agree the fact that Khalid is underrated (though I must confess his speech impediment sound is irritating sometimes), and on the other side Viconia is vasty overrated ing BG1 (due to her BG2 importance).
Still, she is the best cleric for truly evil parties since there are no other choices. Yet, CHARNAME can be a far better cleric than her.
But Khalid's real weakness is his strength, that can be resolved by either giving him the belt or the gauntlets of strength. If your character does not need the dex book, you can give it to Khalid. Then he can achieve the following stats : 18/00 ; 17 ; 17, which are very good. With **** in long swords (and long sword+2 ) he is a real punch in your party ( *** to swords if ** to long bows).
Kagain is the only npc that you know will end up with a lot of hp on core rules. Other npcs may get a series of bad rolls on level up, but Kagain will always get a minimum of 7 hp per level up (with +1 con).
Sharteel can backstab like a truck. She only needs the tome for 19 str, and she can dual to 3/9 for a x4 backstab. Her proficiencies are bad, but you can still get mastery in staves, two handed fighting and longbows, or high mastery in longswords with single weapon fighting / specialised dual wield.
Dorn is good, but from a power party point of view I would always take Kagain and Sharteel as my fighters. If you play on normal (max hp on level up) then Kagain would not be as good, though.
Say what you will, but Khalid is one of the best tanks in the game, especially for a good-aligned party (not one of the best damage-dealers.
Agree! IMO Khalid is one of the best tank in the game after Kagain and Ajantis (lay on hands and protect from evil). Dorn is no tank, he's like Shar-Teel - pure DD. While playing I gave him +2 next prof points into Longbows for some reason if he's hardhited.
not really... he regenerates the same amount over 8 minutes that a single cure light wounds can heal. resting and travelling part is cute, but compared to the hurt other fighters can bring down (Shar-Teel with a strength spell, for example), it's not nearly enough - they can quite possibly kill enemies before getting damaged... though with the the addition of 19 STR belt, the scales have possibly tipped somewhat in Kagain's favor. also, even with 21 con, you only regenerate 1 hp/50 sec.
don't misunderstand me, regeneration is badass - in BG2, with little things like 1 hp/3 secs.
on hit points, my personnal stance is somewhere along the lines of "if you don't die in a fight, it's enought". even Shar-Teel or Monty has a hard time getting damaged so much that healers can't "pick up the pieces", even on insane.
Considering I spend a lot of time scouting ahead with an invisible Montaron or a stealthy Montaron, I find that I have plenty of time for his regeneration to be noticeable. Perhaps I am playing wrong, but in Durlag's tower I frequently had to run away with Dorn or Montaron because they were just so fragile...Kagain kept fighting, and then afterwards when I used my healing spells on the other two Kagain just sits there with 'nah, I'm good'. I eventually got a lot of healing once Xzar hit level 5 or 6 cleric, but I still valued Kagain's regeneration as I de-trap and scout Durlag's tower.
Also, I don't prepare all healing spells, so I try and use them sparingly. I prepare half Cure light wounds as 1st level, but I also prepare command and occasionally doom. I feel like I am benefiting by getting more non-healing spells, purely because I don't have to worry about Kagain.
Also, considering the spell Strength wouldn't change Shar-Teel's actual strength bonuses (it sets it to 18/50, which she effectively already has) A little confusion here, the Strength spell says it sets your Strength to 18/50, and lower it if it is higher, but according to a spells reference I found it actually would raise it? Clarification on that please...Either way, the Spell strength benefits Kagain even more as it sets him from 16 to 18/50, which makes him as brutal as Shar-Teel, if not more so because he is more survivable.
strength either sets it to 18/50 if it's 18 or lower, or adds 50% extra on top of the already existing extraordinary strength - so Shar-Teel's becomes 18/00. afaik 2 strenght spells are cumulative, so anyone can have 18/00, but... that kinda feels exploit-y and unintended.
as for healing spells, well - different playstyles I guess... I tend to run with 2 healers all the time, and do my best to backstab/CC everything to hell, as to avoid getting my fighters very dead, very quick.
not really... he regenerates the same amount over 8 minutes that a single cure light wounds can heal. resting and travelling part is cute, but compared to the hurt other fighters can bring down (Shar-Teel with a strength spell, for example), it's not nearly enough - they can quite possibly kill enemies before getting damaged... though with the the addition of 19 STR belt, the scales have possibly tipped somewhat in Kagain's favor. also, even with 21 con, you only regenerate 1 hp/50 sec.
don't misunderstand me, regeneration is badass - in BG2, with little things like 1 hp/3 secs.
on hit points, my personnal stance is somewhere along the lines of "if you don't die in a fight, it's enought". even Shar-Teel or Monty has a hard time getting damaged so much that healers can't "pick up the pieces", even on insane.
Considering I spend a lot of time scouting ahead with an invisible Montaron or a stealthy Montaron, I find that I have plenty of time for his regeneration to be noticeable. Perhaps I am playing wrong, but in Durlag's tower I frequently had to run away with Dorn or Montaron because they were just so fragile...Kagain kept fighting, and then afterwards when I used my healing spells on the other two Kagain just sits there with 'nah, I'm good'. I eventually got a lot of healing once Xzar hit level 5 or 6 cleric, but I still valued Kagain's regeneration as I de-trap and scout Durlag's tower.
Also, I don't prepare all healing spells, so I try and use them sparingly. I prepare half Cure light wounds as 1st level, but I also prepare command and occasionally doom. I feel like I am benefiting by getting more non-healing spells, purely because I don't have to worry about Kagain.
Also, considering the spell Strength wouldn't change Shar-Teel's actual strength bonuses (it sets it to 18/50, which she effectively already has) A little confusion here, the Strength spell says it sets your Strength to 18/50, and lower it if it is higher, but according to a spells reference I found it actually would raise it? Clarification on that please...Either way, the Spell strength benefits Kagain even more as it sets him from 16 to 18/50, which makes him as brutal as Shar-Teel, if not more so because he is more survivable.
strength either sets it to 18/50 if it's 18 or lower, or adds 50% extra on top of the already existing extraordinary strength - so Shar-Teel's becomes 18/00. afaik 2 strenght spells are cumulative, so anyone can have 18/00, but... that kinda feels exploit-y and unintended.
as for healing spells, well - different playstyles I guess... I tend to run with 2 healers all the time, and do my best to backstab/CC everything to hell, as to avoid getting my fighters very dead, very quick.
In my 'good'-aligned game, I do exactly that: my Stalker pretty much kills everything by himself with sneak attack, and my party only shows up for the big fights with multiple wizards, or when I Critically miss and have to deal with lots of enemies or traps. My evil game is, as you said, simply a different playstyle.
That lack of con hp bonus is a disgrace if you get unlucky with your rolls, although it helps now that he starts with more HP. My last Dorn had 36 HP at level 8, no really.
Comments
don't misunderstand me, regeneration is badass - in BG2, with little things like 1 hp/3 secs.
on hit points, my personnal stance is somewhere along the lines of "if you don't die in a fight, it's enought". even Shar-Teel or Monty has a hard time getting damaged so much that healers can't "pick up the pieces", even on insane.
Also, I don't prepare all healing spells, so I try and use them sparingly. I prepare half Cure light wounds as 1st level, but I also prepare command and occasionally doom. I feel like I am benefiting by getting more non-healing spells, purely because I don't have to worry about Kagain.
Also, considering the spell Strength wouldn't change Shar-Teel's actual strength bonuses (it sets it to 18/50, which she effectively already has)A little confusion here, the Strength spell says it sets your Strength to 18/50, and lower it if it is higher, but according to a spells reference I found it actually would raise it? Clarification on that please...Either way, the Spell strength benefits Kagain even more as it sets him from 16 to 18/50, which makes him as brutal as Shar-Teel, if not more so because he is more survivable.The +3 to bows...well...alright you got me there.
Still, Coran is very good.
Since we keep bringing up Rasaad (and I've used him more), let me say that Rasaad was pretty terrible through level 1 and 2, but once he got sling proficiency he was better, and then at some point a level or two later I noticed he was starting to do pretty well in melee. He tears up ranged creatures and magi starting around level 6, and his speed has come in handy on multiple occasions. Also, level 6 for Rasaad is a different beast in terms of XP than level 6 for Dorn. Rasaad hits his high point late-game, but it's easier to get him there than some classes.
Personally, I've found that every character can be made to work in BG if you are inclined to their personality/side quests/flavor. Garrick is bad, but I've beaten the game with him in my party before. Also, about the time you've hit the late-game content you've just about seen the crest of effectiveness from fighter-types (as I'm discovering the hard way) when you start going up against fully-buffed spellcasters. Final thought: I usually favor raw HP a little bit over brutal attack effectiveness, so some of my favorite fighter-types in the game have been Kagain and Khalid (Ajantis counts here due to Lay on Hands). Say what you will, but Khalid is one of the best tanks in the game, especially for a good-aligned party (not one of the best damage-dealers, although I put the 19 STR belt on him and now he rocks).
Still, she is the best cleric for truly evil parties since there are no other choices. Yet, CHARNAME can be a far better cleric than her.
But Khalid's real weakness is his strength, that can be resolved by either giving him the belt or the gauntlets of strength. If your character does not need the dex book, you can give it to Khalid. Then he can achieve the following stats : 18/00 ; 17 ; 17, which are very good. With **** in long swords (and long sword+2 ) he is a real punch in your party ( *** to swords if ** to long bows).
Sharteel can backstab like a truck. She only needs the tome for 19 str, and she can dual to 3/9 for a x4 backstab. Her proficiencies are bad, but you can still get mastery in staves, two handed fighting and longbows, or high mastery in longswords with single weapon fighting / specialised dual wield.
Dorn is good, but from a power party point of view I would always take Kagain and Sharteel as my fighters. If you play on normal (max hp on level up) then Kagain would not be as good, though.
IMO Khalid is one of the best tank in the game after Kagain and Ajantis (lay on hands and protect from evil).
Dorn is no tank, he's like Shar-Teel - pure DD.
While playing I gave him +2 next prof points into Longbows for some reason if he's hardhited.
as for healing spells, well - different playstyles I guess... I tend to run with 2 healers all the time, and do my best to backstab/CC everything to hell, as to avoid getting my fighters very dead, very quick.