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Inquisitor vs. Wizard Slayer

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  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    Wizard slayers are wizard killers, especially in bg2. Once you gain belm you cripple any wizard within one round. With greater whirlwind you can get up to 100% spell failure in one round. In my eyes it's pretty damn strong. Remember your attacks only need to hit, means even if you don't do damage due to stone skin, mirror image etc. the spell failure applies, hell even if your weapon is ineffective your spell failure applies. And the spell failure works on everybody. Abazigal, irenicus, melissan, firkraag, kangaxx everybody is basically done for after 10 attacks. Spell failure applies to spells and special abilities, like barbarian rage.
    The inquisitor is on a completely different level though, possibly the most overpowered kit in the game, combined with carsomyr the inquisitor is a gambreaker, yet still the spell failure just wrecks kangaxx, while the inquisitor gets toasted.

    BelgarathMTHCenerand_then_or
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,605
    There are interesting ideas here. Maybe I should consider trying a wizard slayer. I guess I just hate to be limited to that one thing - the inquisitor's powers seem a bit more flexible, or even a fighter-mage or blade. I guess it just comes down in part to personal taste, and what you want to roleplay.

    I also woke up this morning thinking about berserker and barbarian, because of the rage and berserk immunities. I know that berserk is better in late SoA and in ToB, but the extra speed and hit points and eventual partial damage immunities of the barbarian are also kind of appealing.

    The bottom line seems to be that nobody gets to be a true "flying brick" in D&D, because then you wouldn't need any team work to win, and there wouldn't be any danger or conflict in the story.

    See: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlyingBrick

  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    Kensai/Mage is a flying brick, once you regain your kensai levels you can handle everything the game throws at you. And once you gain time stop, improved haste and time stop turn the game into a beatdown.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,605
    edited December 2012
    @geselle, hmm, that's an interesting idea. I've heard people advocate the kensai/mage as really powerful, if power is what you want. What level were you supposed to dual? Wasn't it seventh - something about an extra attack per round?

    Wouldn't that only work in a solo game with the xp cap removed? It seems like you would never get ninth level spells if you were doing that in a party. Also, you'd be just a regular, armorless kensai for most of BG1. I usually don't go for the character build ideas that involve having godlike power in late ToB, but at the expense of being really weak for most of the game - although, I guess I just kind of described all mages, didn't I? The straight mage pays off a bit sooner, though.

    What weapons are best for a kensai/mage?

  • marfigmarfig Member Posts: 208

    The bottom line seems to be that nobody gets to be a true "flying brick" in D&D, because then you wouldn't need any team work to win, and there wouldn't be any danger or conflict in the story.

    This is true of AD&D. But not of Baldur's Gate unfortunately. The game doesn't even come close to cover the scope of D&D enemies, spells and items database. In Baldur's Gate some multi-class choices will allow you to solo about anything as long as you are careful during the early stages of the game. Once you gain enough levels, you'll be effectively the most powerful character in the game bar none. In Baldur's Gate 2 this is a bit less true.

    High level characters in AD&D are better balanced. But only in that a 15th level something has the power to destroy a 15th level something-else in one go. It's extremely difficult to stand out in a crowd of high level characters (it will be equipment that will determine true power), whereas low and mid level characters are way more dependent on their kits.

    BelgarathMTH
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,953
    My monk seemed like a flying brick once he got up there though he did have his weak points

  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    You dual class at level 9 or 12, depending on how much time you want to spend in regaining your kensai levels. You won't reach level 9 spells until ToB, though i must admit I haven't checked the keep at this point, so you might get level 9 spells before facing irenicus. Playing kensai/mage is way easier than you imagine. First you are a great frontliner, dealing massive damage. After switching to mage the first couple of levels are easily attained. So you get fear, fireball, skulltrap etc. et voila you are a viable team member again, at level 5 (mage).
    There is no best weapon, thats why i usually carry many of them with me. I usually use belm in my offhand for the additional attack . The rest is up to you. I prefer axes. Azuredge chews through undead like nothing else, and it's ranged. Frostreaver and stone fire are easily attainable and in late ToB i get axe of the unyielding for the godforsaken decapitation.
    There are some weapons that you should keep in your inventory, because under certain circumstances they make the fights a lot easier. E.g. the equalizer, daystar, blackrazor, wave, spectral brand

    and_then_or
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    Any class can solo the whole game. There might an optional area here or there you have to avoid, but the core game can be solo'd as anything.

    And no, the Wizard slayer CANNOT penetrate weapon ineffective (from mantles, PfMW or outright immunities to your level of enhancement), since it negates the attack roll entirely. It will only pierce stoneskin/ironskin and mirror image.

    And most mages will simply kill you with spells before you can get to them, since you have to be almost at the ToB level cap before having anything resembling a decent MR. Not sure about EE, but in BG2 WS can't use boots of speed (among most other magic items), so the only option for haste is Arbane's SS, 1/day.

    BelgarathMTHSpaceInvader
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,835
    The actual 3 kensai mage duals are as follows:

    7 (You're extra attack)
    9 (Just for the maximum possible fighter hp and additional weapon proficiency
    13 (Maximum possible extra attacks from a warrior sub-class)

    BelgarathMTH
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,835
    Also Katana is the most often chose weapon for Kensai Dual (Celestial Fury+Zerth's Blade for extra spells). Staff could also be really good with Staff of the Ram and Staff of the Magi.

  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    edited December 2012
    @Dragonspear @geselle @treset @ZanathKariashi - I still think for a Kensai / Mage getting Grandmastery in Scimitar is the way to go and you should wait until Level 13 to Dual for the extra attacks. Usano's Blade (+4 AND MASSIVE BONUS ELECTRICAL DAMAGE), Spectral Brand (+5 AND NEGATIVE PLAIN PROTECTION!), Yamoto +4 AND Drizzt's scimmies from BG1 if you're Neutral or Evil and willing to go toe to toe with him give you 5 uber weapons which are among the strongest in the game...AND you get Grandmastery Bonus for Belm when you choose to use it. GIving you even more attacks and making your offhand attacks really count.

    Get a strength belt or a high roll and you're done. With haste you're only going to ginzu everything...and even if you're not stunning anyone, the sheer amount of attacks and attack bonus kind of crush Celestial Fury to my mind. (Give that one to Minsc! =P)

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    A Berserker/Mage is stronger then a Kensage (well if you dual at 13 you get a whopping +1 damage more vs a 9 dualed berserker who's been a complete character for about 1125000 xp ago with a massive spread of immunities to save spell slots for better things and effectively no penalties at all).

    I kind of wish people would stop mentioning it. It's not strong, at all. It IS however potent as a thief dual if you enjoy backstabbing but don't want to deal with an assassin.

    A solo kensai will blow through enemies only a hair slower then a Kensage will and will usually kill single enemies MUCH faster...this is fact, and anyone who has solo'd one will readily tell you, adding mage to it is a MASSIVE waste of time. Sure you're immune to damage, vs enemies that single class kensai would've killed in 1 round (With proper gear you can drop Demogorgon in 2 rounds, ravager in 4).

  • MirenheartMirenheart Member Posts: 41
    Only use I've ever seen for a Wizard Slayer is this small Solo Character guide found on Gamebanshee.

    "Race: Human

    1st class: Wizard Slayer to level 15

    2nd class: Thief to level 38



    Ok here's how it works: Since the expansion pack now allows you to go to 8 million experience points, you can go to 15 as a wizard slayer for 15% resistance AND still have room to get to 38 as a thief. The great thing about thiefs are the high level class ability "use any item". That skill OVERIDES your wizard slayer restrictions that doesn't allow you to use magic items. In fact it overides ANY item restrictions. In other words you can use the 2 handed wonder Carsomyr!! So add another 50% magic resistance to your 15 and you have 65, add the ring of gaxx and you have 75. And since your a thief and should use leather armor, add the evil leather with +20 magic resistance and you have 95. And of course the amulet of power for a whopping 100% MAGIC IMMUNITY and level drain protection. PLUS you can backstab at *5 the dammage, set traps ( about 9 i believe ), and steal some nice scrolls that you can cast... improved mantle anyone? With that combination nothing can harm you. You can even be REAL cheesy and equip the staff of magi ( automatic invisibility ) and backstab without even having to get away from enemies. When your invisibility is blown just go to the equipment screen and re-equip it. Only problem with this is it makes the game a bit too easy... o well ;-) "

    Aasimar069
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,287
    edited December 2012
    @belgarathmth It sounds like you're leaning towards playing an Inquisitor with this RP angle (which makes great sense for the reasons you've identified).

    The character concept is really intriguing. If you end up doing it, and find it to be a standout experience, I'd appreciate you sharing by posting the build here. And for that mater, if the concept serves as the basis for a particular party, then it could go here. It looks like a very cool idea. And you write well, so I'd enjoy seeing a blurb about why the build or concept worked.

    I've been thinking of doing the same using a Wizard Slayer just because I've never gotten around to using it, and wanted to try that kit out. My plan is to assemble a custom party in MP mode that seem to fit an anti-arcane-magic theme. I'm even considering having the WS and his custom party eschew magic weapons and gear, unless the items seem to be clearly divinely enchanted versus enchanted with arcane magic. But that might make the game just too difficult.

    Anyway, for myself I don't get caught up in whether one class or kit is more powerful than another. For me it's about the challenge of using any of them to their fullest potential. But I do find myself thinking of roleplaying concepts for classes and kits in order to use some creativity in the playthrough.

    I mean, I realize that in this case you're talking about an anti-wizard superman type character from start to finish, and which class or kit fits the bill for that RP concept specifically--I get that. It does sound like Inquisitor is probably the strongest choice for that. So you should play it! That's my two centavos.

    BelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,605
    @Lemernis, yes, one of the roleplaying aspects of the fantasy was to pretend that I can undo evil magic and reverse spells on its victims. I felt like the inquisitor's Dispel Magic would probably be the best way to do that. A wizard slayer, berserker, barbarian, kensai, or blade might be able to kill the evil mage a bit faster, but they couldn't do anything for a victim of say, a Polymorph Other or a Feeblemind, other than to try to find a good mage with enough levels. Also, a mage could escape them pretty easily if he could get a Dimension Door or Mislead, or some other powerful illusion spell cast.

    I know that something dual-classed to mage could do the Dispel Magic part of it, but the inquisitor's version of the spell has that double-level thing going for it. I've usually found regular mage and cleric Dispel to be very unreliable, as compared to the inquisitor's, which almost always works. That True Sight is awfully handy, as well, and it frees up spell slots for your good mages and priests.

    As far as "the build", it's not really got much to it. I'd just roll until I got a really high 18/** STR, and would try for 18's in CON and DEX. WIS and CHA would be left at the minimum for the class, which, as with all paladins, only leaves INT to gimp. I really wouldn't want to take it below 10, though, so I think I'd be spending a long, long time on the rolling screen.

    I'd want ** in two-handed swords for Carsomyr, and either ** in longswords or axes so I could use a shield (maybe axe for Azuredge) while waiting for Carsomyr, and then probably ** in two-handed weapon style if I finally got 6 pips to use. I'd keep a ranged weapon equipped for early levels, probably darts or a sling, and use it non-proficiently.

    I'm also kind of into the whole "paragon of virtue, law and order" deal, so the whole mythos of the paladins kind of suits me. Plus, I always get along really well with the Sacred Heart crowd - Ajantis, Keldorn, and Anomen. In fact, it might be fun to play a party that is based on the Sacred Heart characters.

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    Some of you really have no idea of what they are talking about...
    I wonder if you even try the "tactics" you suggest.

    Wizard Slayers that ignore weapon immunities, thieves that backstab with Carsomyr and Staff of The Magi, Druids as the BEST caster-counters in game...

    Are you serious?

    You know what's the best class vs a mage? Another pure, multi/dual-class mage. Sorcerer would be even better due to his bigger amount of spells x day.

    As regards the question of the thread: yes, an Inquisitor is a lot more effective vs a strong spellcaster for the simple fact that he can dissolve the mage's protection (or at least try it).

    AHF
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    Bare in mind, if you're wielding something like FoA or other weapons with additional elemental damage, you can chain disrupt or outright kill non-weapon immune mages in 4 hits as any warrior-type character regardless of stoneskins/mirror images....that's why the wizard slayer sucks...their disruption takes too long to stack since the enemy will be dead before you hit 50%. Demi-liches are the only enemies in the game who can survive long enough to potentially get disrupted by it, and even that won't happen if you're using the IMoD since it almost always 1-2 shots them.

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited December 2012
    Kangaxx in Demi-lich form casts spell-like abilities with a script, so they ignore the spell failure %.
    The other Demi-lich in the Watcher's Tower casts spells, yes.

  • KankKank Member Posts: 38
    Yes, the Inquisitor is better.

    Yes, a Fighter/Mage is better..

    What if you want to play a Dwarf? A Dwarf can be neither of those things. I like the WS kit because it allows some races to play that sort of character. While it is gimped compared to a lot of other kits, it's still a lot of fun.

    I remember in my Kali days we ran a BGII group called The Order of the Happy Slap. All six players were little people. Friend of mine made a Halfling Wizard Slayer and did really well with it. Fun times.

    and_then_orSjerrie
  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    Debaser said:

    @Dragonspear @geselle @treset @ZanathKariashi - I still think for a Kensai / Mage getting Grandmastery in Scimitar is the way to go and you should wait until Level 13 to Dual for the extra attacks. Usano's Blade (+4 AND MASSIVE BONUS ELECTRICAL DAMAGE), Spectral Brand (+5 AND NEGATIVE PLAIN PROTECTION!), Yamoto +4 AND Drizzt's scimmies from BG1 if you're Neutral or Evil and willing to go toe to toe with him give you 5 uber weapons which are among the strongest in the game...AND you get Grandmastery Bonus for Belm when you choose to use it. GIving you even more attacks and making your offhand attacks really count.

    Get a strength belt or a high roll and you're done. With haste you're only going to ginzu everything...and even if you're not stunning anyone, the sheer amount of attacks and attack bonus kind of crush Celestial Fury to my mind. (Give that one to Minsc! =P)

    Nope, Celestial Fury blows everything out of the water in SoA. The stun is just too insane. Spectral Brand comes way too late in the game to be very effective, and it's still not one of the top 3 1h swords in the game. There's no other good main hand scimitar in the game, and you don't really need GM for belm, it works very effectively without any proficiency point, just has to give you the extra 1 attack for main. I guess scimitars would be good for BG1 if you kill Drizzt, but i personally never kill him since i'm playing good protagonists.

    And by the middle of ToB, if you planned your character perfectly, you can achieve GM in a 2nd weapon, personally i prefer Bastard Swords, since Foebane is so sick, much sicker than Spectral Brand.

    and_then_orFenghoang
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,287
    edited December 2012
    Hypothetically, if you're a mage and an Inquisitor is after you, let's say, what spell protections would you use to protect against Dispel Magic? And does SCS/SCSII utilize same then for enemy mages?

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    Spell Immunity: Abjuration.
    And yes, this smart trick is used by mages in SCSII.
    That's the reason why it takes a mage to properly dispel the protections of another mage.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    @Lemernis - Try Horror. When he's running screaming at the spiders trying to lay eggs in his brain, he's not dispelling himself.

    SpaceInvaderjflieder
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,287
    edited December 2012
    Pantalion said:

    @Lemernis - Try Horror. When he's running screaming at the spiders trying to lay eggs in his brain, he's not dispelling himself.

    True, sometimes the best defense is a good offense. :) There's a pretty wide array of disabling spells for the enemy to choose from above and beyond Hold and Charm (and the latter is specifically Charm Person and Dire Charm, right? I.e., not all Enchantment school spells?).

    Most often, even just Ray of Enfeeblement is generally going to completely encumber a warrior class in full plate. Sleep (?), Chromatic Orb, Blindness, Slow, Contagion, Confusion (?), Emotion: Hopelessness (?), Polymorph Other, Teleport Field, Chaos, Domination (?), Feeblemind (?), could also be scripted versus an Inquisitor in SCS:EE.

    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,158
    edited December 2012
    I just created a dwarf wizard slayer specialising in axes. Its actually a playthrough I look forward to entirely because I've never played a pure fighter playthrough. Plus berserker just seemed very boring to me and I wanted to be able to wear actual armour (so the kensai was out).

    Lemernis
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    That's how I did my solo. Though...it's about the most boring class you can play. You're a fighter with a hefty penalty, and no real benefits till stupidly high levels, and the fact your item usage is so limited means you're just going to hit things only pretty much. A plain fighter can at least mix things up with assessory items or potion usage.

    Lemernis
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,835
    @Elminster

    I was gonna do Warhammers first then Axes myself but ya that's my general concept

    elminster
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    edited December 2012

    Debaser said:

    @Dragonspear @geselle @treset @ZanathKariashi - I still think for a Kensai / Mage getting Grandmastery in Scimitar is the way to go and you should wait until Level 13 to Dual for the extra attacks. Usano's Blade (+4 AND MASSIVE BONUS ELECTRICAL DAMAGE), Spectral Brand (+5 AND NEGATIVE PLAIN PROTECTION!), Yamoto +4 AND Drizzt's scimmies from BG1 if you're Neutral or Evil and willing to go toe to toe with him give you 5 uber weapons which are among the strongest in the game...AND you get Grandmastery Bonus for Belm when you choose to use it. GIving you even more attacks and making your offhand attacks really count.

    Get a strength belt or a high roll and you're done. With haste you're only going to ginzu everything...and even if you're not stunning anyone, the sheer amount of attacks and attack bonus kind of crush Celestial Fury to my mind. (Give that one to Minsc! =P)

    Nope, Celestial Fury blows everything out of the water in SoA. The stun is just too insane. Spectral Brand comes way too late in the game to be very effective, and it's still not one of the top 3 1h swords in the game. There's no other good main hand scimitar in the game, and you don't really need GM for belm, it works very effectively without any proficiency point, just has to give you the extra 1 attack for main. I guess scimitars would be good for BG1 if you kill Drizzt, but i personally never kill him since i'm playing good protagonists.

    And by the middle of ToB, if you planned your character perfectly, you can achieve GM in a 2nd weapon, personally i prefer Bastard Swords, since Foebane is so sick, much sicker than Spectral Brand.
    @AlexDeLarge

    Sorry...but a Grandmaster in Scimitars will beat a Grandmaster in Katana's for damage any day of the weak.

    Take Usano's blade & Belm Vs Celestial Fury and Belm.

    The mean average damage of Usano’s Blade is 8.5 (5-12)
    So 8.5 Damage + 5 Damage for Grand Mastery = 13.5 Damage per attack (Mean)
    Now a grand master with Scimitars will get 5 attacks per round with his or her main hand if they carry Belm in the offhand.
    +2 attacks for being a Fighter class of level 13 or higher
    +2 attacks for Grand Mastery
    +1 attack main-hand from holding Belm in the offhand.
    13.5 x5 attacks = 67.5 Damage per round
    Usano’s Blade also has electrical damage which will proc once every ten attacks like this:
    10% chance on hit for 2-20 Electrical damage (Calculate Mean Average Damage: 2+20 = 22; 22 / 2 = 11)
    So one out of every ten hits by Usano’s blade should add 11 Damage (Mean Average)
    Since you’re getting 5 attacks with your main hand in a round, divide 11 by 2.
    11 / 2 = 5.5 Damage Electrical per round on average.
    So, in one round Usano’s Blade does 67.5 Damage + 5.5 Electrical for 73 Damage total in one round.
    +3 to hit for Grand Mastery, + 4 to hit for being a + 4 Weapon =
    +7 to hit before factoring in any strength bonus of any kind.
    With a natural Thac0 of 8 at level 13 the +7 to hit will bring you down to a Thac0 of 1 in your main hand.
    Now, factor in Belm’s mean damage of 6.5 (3-10)
    6.5 + your Grand Mastery Bonus of 5 Damage = 11.5 Damage per hit with the offhand pre strength bonus.
    73 + 11.5 = 84.5 Damage Per Round if the offhand damage hits with a Thaco of 5 factoring in all penalties for offhand use and the fact that Belm is merely a +2 Weapon.
    Now if you’re strength is 18/91 or higher your bonus to hit from strength should be a +4 or more and bring that offhand Thaco back down to 1. (This is absurdly easy to obtain even if you don’t roll a character without a high strength score via items)

    Since it’s just as likely to Crit as it is to miss at this point I will act as if the two possibilities merely cancel each other out.

    84.5 Damage a round if you’re a Grandmaster in Scimitars with Usano’s Blade and Belm!

    Now if you calculate Celestial Fury’s damage:

    Celestial Fury has a mean damage of 8.5 a hit (4-13), so it’s got the same exact base damage as Usano’s Blade for starters.
    Now if you were a Grand Master in Katana’s at level 13, same deal, with Belm in your offhand you’d reach the same number of damage per round mean.
    So…67.5 damage, but what about the 5% chance for 20 Lightning (Electrical) Damage?
    Well, this is pretty basic, that 20 Lightning damage is going to happen once every twenty attacks so it’s essentially just giving you +1 Damage over 20 attacks (or 4 rounds of 5 attacks) to each swing.
    So…now you’re at 68.5 per round. 67.5 + 1 Electrical every round essentially (though it would just hit the one in 20 times all at once obviously)
    And if Belm isn’t a weapon you’re a grand master in, and your other proficiency points went into dual wielding at that level Belm’s average damage will stay at 6.5 with no mastery bonus and an additional -2 to hit penalty for being a weapon you have no training in.
    Putting your offhand Thac0 at 7 instead of 5…giving you a 200% increase in missed attacks from your offhand.

    Not to mention you still have one less Thac0 in your main-hand, though a decent strength bonus should compensate for that.

    Even before slightly altering that chance to miss Usano's Blade clearly does 16 more damage per attack Guaranteed (Mean Average) and 9 Damage more if by luck you land with the offhand (which, you will miss some now) (Celestial Fury puts on a show with topping out at 75.5 Damage per round with Belm in the offhand WHEN it hits...which is most of the time at least)

    I would much rather take the extra 16 damage ALWAYS versus the chance to stun...but that's just me. AND Celestial Fury is merely a +3 weapon (Can't hurt creatures of Kangaxx's level and up) AND Spectral Brand is even better arguably than both Usano's Blade AND Celestial Fury (But it's a Scimitar so you can dual wield it with Usano's if you want with the same Grand Mastery Bonus) - Never mind that Hindo's Doom which isn't anywhere near as good as Usano, CF or Spectral Brand...doesn't even come close to the same damage payout as Usano's Blade OR Celestial Fury and it's the only +4 Katana.

    Katana's are overrated. Scimmies / Ninja-to's, Wazikashi's are incredible. As cool as it is to stun and abuse time stop, etc. You don't need to stun at all when you're doing that much damage. You're a friggin' chainsaw.

    Not to Say CF is bad...it totally justifies the entire Katana weapon choice...but...end of the day it's amazing more so for SOA and there are good Scimmies to be had in BG1, SOA AND TOB. I just think it's a much more solid choice.

  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    edited December 2012
    Does the Wizard Slayer's spell failure trigger on ranged attacks, as well? Or melee only?

  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,835
    It should be both but currently its melee only. I believe @Camdawg mentioned they were looking into a way to fix that.

    RAM021
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