Are shields under powered?
nptitim
Member Posts: 111
It seems to me with the option to dual wield and its available proficiencies, and with the power of 2 handed weapons, that just having a plain old shield is under powered. I know some magic shields give some extra benefits but they are essentially never listed as super powerful items or talked about much.
So what do you think? Are shields under powered? If so what should be done to boost them up? And what are some of your favorite shields?
So what do you think? Are shields under powered? If so what should be done to boost them up? And what are some of your favorite shields?
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Two-Weapon Style:
** = Main-hand -0 THAC0, Off-hand -4 THAC0
*** = Main-hand -0 THAC0, Off-hand -2 THAC0
You get an extra full attack per round for dual-wielding, no matter what class you are.
Two-Handed Weapon Style:
* = -2 Speed Factor, Crit on 19
** = -4 Speed Factor, Crit on 19
Single Weapon Style:
* = -1 AC, Crit on 19
** = -2 AC, Crit on 19
Sword and Shield Style:
* = -2 AC vs. Missile Weapons
** = -4 AC vs. Missile Weapons
Let's face it ... the style bonuses for a shield are pathetic. I kinda understand because having a shield is an awesome bonus in the first place, but seriously, in a ton of cases even if you are one-hand wielding weapons, you are actually better off without a shield, which is freakin' ridiculous.
As far as sword+shield versus two swords goes, if your AC is already low, a shield will provide a major bonus: it can reduce the damage you take by up to half. More versus missile weapons if you take the sword and shield proficiency. If your AC is lousy, adding a shield will not make a significant difference: AC -1 versus AC 0 is a big deal; AC 9 versus AC 10 is not. However, two weapon fighting almost doubles your damage output in almost every situation, so it is statistically a better choice, especially if your AC is poor to begin with. In BG2, there is no contest: shields are nearly useless, while being able to use 2 weapons, each of which confers some kind of equipped benefit, provides both offensive and defensive bonuses.
Their defense verses missile weapons is their best attribute. Caster clerics make the best use of them.
And in BG2, there is a shield made out of solid cheese called Balduran's Shield.
These are in sequel though. Most shields with extra effects in BG1 are bucklers, which are about worthless, compared to single weapon style. Also as a above, the value of a shield depends largely on how high your own AC is...though no matter your AC, you'll always be hit on a crit, so the quicker you kill the enemy, the less likely you'll be crit.
In BG1, dual wield isn't all that spectacular, and I don't feel like the two-handed weapons are worlds more powerful than one-handed weapons. But there are other issues that come into play and discourage shield usage, such as:
1. You can't equip a bow and a shield at the same time. When I know I'm creating a character who will be using a bow or a crossbow, I almost always make the switch a two-handed weapon, not necessarily because two-handed weapons are more powerful than sword/shield, but because it's the most powerful option that I can switch to without having to go to the inventory screen. If the game allowed you to switch from a two handed bow to a sword/shield (or dual wield) setup, I bet it would be a whole lot more common.
2. Single Weapon style. It was largely ignored in BG2, but has become popular in BG:EE. This is really where shields appear under powered to me. Two pips in single weapon style, and you have the equivalent of a medium shield+1 equipped, plus double the crit range. PLUS it's compatible with weapon swaps to ranged weapons.
3. Shields are most effective against missiles, and there are LOTS of items in the game that help protect you from missiles. Boots of Avoidance (+5) and Girdle of Piercing (+3) spring to mind, and both are available early. So while the Large Shield+1, +4 vs. Missiles is a great shield, by the time you get it, missile weapons are either not a problem for you, or you're dead (you don't get it until after you've waded through 1000 kobold, bandit, and hobgoblin elite archers).
4. Sword and Shield style kinda sucks, and has the same problem as above. Two proficiency points for -4 against missiles and no other value? Boo.
It's a combination of all of those things that makes shields less appealing. Then after that comes the final straw, which is that shields themselves don't bring a lot to the table, especially during combat. The +1 constitution buckler is most useful for traveling and resting. The +1 dexterity buckler is most useful for the boost to thieving skills. And the large shield+1/+4 is good, but comes long after it would have been most useful.
The best fix, in my mind, would be altering the way quick-swap weapons work to allow a shield and a bow to be equipped at the same time. Do that, and shield usage would skyrocket.
I doesn't make sense to think about the proficiencies in a vacuum like some people are doing in this thread.
For NPCs with pre-allocated weapon proficiencies shields are your friend. Because so few NPC have points in dual-wield up front shields are just a solid use of the offhand as you don't need to spend any proficiency points to get the AC and no penalties.
There are a couple of exceptions to this: Minsc, Kivan and Shar-teel all start with 2 points in dual-wield which means they are pretty viable dual-wield NPC candidates. Their other weapon proficiencies don't necessarily play to this though (Kivan starts with specialisation in halberds and bows at level 2 for example).
The only thing you loose by choosing dual wield in BG is a couple spots of armor class from the shield. I still sometimes do it, especially for characters with a lousy dexterity who need the armor class. But generally my main tank will be dual wielding.
But with that said the game isn't hard enough that you need to meta game everything. I frequently run with shields because i don't think dual wielding suites certain characters.
Now I don't bother with it, although I do use shields when I can't dual-wield.
In BG2 it's not so great anymore, but I think there is a shield that reflects all damage spells back at the caster. There is also one to reflect beholder rays back at beholders.
Dual wield doesn't appear to be done the same in BG2 as it is in the 2nd edition handbook. If I read correctly the off hand weapons has to be smaller than the main hand weapon and your receive large penalties to high for wearing chain, splint, and plate armors.
With the way it is dual wield is pretty crazy. Being able to dual wield blunt weapons seems a bit much. I guess if you were really strong it would be possible, but still...
I don't think 2 handed weapons are to bad by comparison. There are some really powerful ones, they damage almost everything, and they can attack from farther away.
One handed style appears to be for ranged attackers who want to use one handed weapons when switching to melee.
I actually like the way Dark Souls handles the different weapon styles. It feels pretty realistic.
Also, per the Fighters Handbook, the weapon size restriction is lifted IF the character specializes in two weapon fighting style.
BG changed the penalties (made them steeper), removed the dexterity modifier, and made it possible to take up to three pips in the style.
I agree, though, that in BG2/TOB people get +3 +4 medium shields but no good buckler/small shield so that it's more beneficial to go for Two weapon or two-handed weapon styles...
Anomen packs a mean shield game in BG2
+ Plus 1 to DMG factored after attack roll (A shield bash essentially like in real sword fights) AND -1 to AC.
++ Plus 2 to DMG factored after attack roll (shield bash) AND -2 to ACT
If it was offensive to tanking like that it would be GREAT.
In fact I think it would be awesome if someone made that into a mod to make Sword and Shield style viable.
There's enough bonus to missile weapon junk out there as it is...and most shields have decent natural bonuses for that anyway.
A true master of sword and board would use his or hers shield to unbalance a foe. Maybe an AC penalty to foes attacking the sword and board character to represent the character using the shield to bash with would be cool.
By that time you can get some pretty good shields (+4 shields which mean -5 AC) which can actually have a significant impact on how much you get hit. And for any tough fight your your melee characters will be spamming whirlwind attack which is 10 attacks/round regardless of whether you are dual wielding or not.
And a difference of +5 (shield of the order) to an enemies' thac0 is huge, ie Fire Giants in Yaga Shura have a modified -4 Thac0.. (afair)