I actually like the race restriction and wish other races had a kit of their own, too. Maybe an Uthgard barbarian for half orcs, some variation of the Arcane Archer kit for elves and half elves, a thief kit for halflings... The closest thing until now was the gnome ability to be an Illusionist in a multiclass, and Paladin/kits being restricted to humans.
Uthgardt Barbarians are almost exclusively human, and harbor an intense hatred of all orckind for the most part. Though I agree a barbarian kit for half-orcs would be cool. As Millard says Eye of Gruumsh makes the most sense, though I don't know how the whole "putting out your own right eye" thing would be implemented.
Oh, right... I just threw out the first barbarian thing that came to mind. I don't think arcane archers are usually restricted to elves either. In any case, race-restricted kits would be great.
Shadowdancer. At least this guy has some pentalies (athought very "classic" - pentaly to thief points per level to spend), in comparison to the rest. Sorcerers are already too powerful, so is the new kit. Both new Monks kit have no disadvantages, and besided they makes playing neutral monk unviable anymore. This is not fair.
Shadow Dancer is the only new kit (maybe besides Blackguard) which feels fair at the moment.
Dark Moon Monk is sweet, though i believe, that chill touch is bugged at the moment. Played a bit and realized that chill touch turns your unarmed attacks into the regular version, that knocks enemies unconcious. You won't realize it imediately since cold damage kills your target afterwards, but if you check your combat log, the bug should be apparent.
None so far. The Monk kits and the Sorcerer kit seem quite unbalanced. The advantages easily outweigh the disadvantages. Also, alignment restrictions are not technically disadvantages but simply restrictions which do not affect combat. The Blackguard is still the worst of the bunch, though.
I've been testing the Dragon Disciple, and it doesn't really seem so hot to me. The con bonus is next to useless, the extra hp and AC aren't useful if you are casting from the back row, where the fewer spells really hurts, and the THAC0 is too low to stand on the front row and fight like a Bard. Maybe with Tensers Transformation it will be more effective.
@Echon ...Huh? How is the Blackguard the worst of the bunch? You get spells, +2 saving throws, Turn Undead, full thac0 progression, a debuff, immunities and POISON. The poison part is really important since when combined with your better THAC0, it can poison multiple enemies and disrupt mages. The latter quite important.
@Archaos The main reason why I don't care for the Blackguard kit is simply because we already have the option to recruit Dorn. There aren't a whole lot of evil NPCs, and Dorn is arguably the most interesting and most powerful of the bunch. You have to be evil to play a blackguard, but you are also likely to use Dorn if you're evil, and having two blackguards in the same party is a bit much. I wouldn't be surprised if others have a similar line of thinking concerning the kit.
@ZelgadisGW I don't follow your reasoning at all. Both new monk kits lose notable special abilities of the class, and while you can argue that their benefits outweigh the disadvantages, they certainly aren't without disadvantages. Besides, since when does lack of significant downsides ruin a kit? Show me anyone who plays unkitted paladins, for example. And the main power of a sorcerer is their ability to cast tons of spells per day, and if the current implementation of the Dragon Disciple's casting is accurate (as opposed to the kit's description), this power is significantly cut back in exchange for bonuses that could easily be considered useless. My enjoyment of the kit is for the flavor, not the power. I'd rather have a normal sorcerer for straight power.
Yet you choose Shadowdancer as the most balanced of the bunch? A class that, once it's properly implemented, will be able to turn invisible multiple times per fight without micromanagement in order to deliver repeated backstabs? Forget about the terrible skill progression, you can get another thief to handle lockpicking. The Shadowdancer is pretty much an invincible killing machine, both as a single class and a dual possibility.
@Madhax Um, but here's the paradox. If the Blackguard kit didn't exist, you wouldn't have Dorn as it. Combined with his 19 STR, practically +2 sword and poison, he's absolutely brutal.
And by the way, it's not too much if you have two Blackguards in your party. For my evil playthrough, my Blackguard would focus more on defense. DEX Gloves, shield, best armor and longswords/bastard swords instead of Two-Handed Swords. And still, two Blackguards means double the poison and I might be wrong, double the debuffs, if they stack.
Similarly to what I did with my good walkthrough. My Cavalier was using shields and longswords and had Minsc with two-handed swords. Then in ToB, I left Minsc and took Sarevok as they served the same role.
@Madhax I will disagree. I think that the Blackguard is an amazing kit and worth making a Charname one EVEN if we have Dorn for it. The kit is still great even if you don't take Dorn. I don't see how one cancels the other. And I explained that two Blackguards have great synergy if they focus on different weapons.
And Blackguard is my favorite kit officially and period. Heh.
True, Dorn is one but the Blackguard is still a great kit on it's own and probably one of the best ones.
And speaking of which, I expect them to upgrade Rasaad to a Sun Soul Monk so that they stop calling him useless. It's pretty much an oversight now since he *is* a Sun Soul Monk but he doesn't *have* the Sun Soul Monk kit.
Of them all, I think the worse kit is actually the Dark Moon Monk.
BG1 has plenty of evil NPCs and neutral NPCs that fit in with evil parties (Faldorn, Safana, Quayle). I admit, it isn't the most exciting thing ever to play a Blackguard and have Dorn around, but there are worse things. I had my BG use different weapons than Dorn and be a bit more tanky, so I could fill Kagain's role. It's more interesting than having a fighter, kitted or not, and a good alternative for evil parties, class-wise. We don't have rangers as frontliner option, so opening up a paladin kit (though BG doesn't feel like one) is a good thing, even if an NPC with the same kit exists. Monty's existance never stopped me from playing a thief either.
@Madhax Ok, first of all, monks: You mean lack of Quivering Palm? That's certainly serious disadvantage in BG1, where you don't get it anyway. Sure, it might bite back in BG2, but that's another story for the moment. Also, I think that having no kit for neutral monk is not fair.
Now, Dragon Disciple. The way I understood it, he can cast one less spell per day than normal sorceror. 2 magic missiles per day at start instead of 3. Pure mage has only 1 slot avaliable then - DD still wins. Besides, that still doesn't change the fact that after beating BG one or two times you, as a player, exactly knows what spells are useful and what are not, so making optimal build for sorceror/dd is like walk in the park. Dragon Disciple recieves some really neat bonuses like more hit points, armor class bonus (contrary to what majority think, good AC can save mage's butt in early levels), fire resistance, breath attack... And it's still a sorceror - which roughtly means "overpowered mage for a lazy people".
Now, Shadowdancer. I forgot to mention that his backstab is supposed to be less potent than that of normal thief, which kind of nerfs this character. Of course, I made my opinion before I realized that this kit is seriously bugged, probably direct result of lacking any beta testing at all. But that's Overhaul's problem.
Still, this topic is about new FAVOURITE kit, so I choose Shadowdancer just because it's the only class I would like to play here.
PS. I forgot about Dwarven Defender. Meh, it doesn't affect my opinion.
The main reason why I don't care for the Blackguard kit is simply because we already have the option to recruit Dorn. There aren't a whole lot of evil NPCs, and Dorn is arguably the most interesting and most powerful of the bunch. You have to be evil to play a blackguard, but you are also likely to use Dorn if you're evil, and having two blackguards in the same party is a bit much. I wouldn't be surprised if others have a similar line of thinking concerning the kit.
Why does playing an evil main character require you to only hire evil companions? Due to reputation? The breaking point for companions is incredibly low/high depending on their respective alignments, as low as 2 for "good" ones and I can't imagine most people enjoy running around with a rep that low anyhow due to the Flaming Fist harassment.
Maybe I'm unable to understand due to not playing two-colour parties; like my current playthrough has Imoen/Khalid (good), Jaheira/Neera (neutral) and Viconia (evil). Apart from them not being the best of friends and Viconia moaning at high reputation levels, it's working out nicely. And I have 2 arcane casters, 2 divine casters and use all 3 plate wearers as frontline combatants (most of the time), so I don't see the whole problem with "roles" either.
I don't think alignment restrictions are unfair. So there is no neutral monk, what's the big deal? There is also no neutral paladin (and an evil kit only since BGEE) and no neutral or evil rangers. Rangers as a whole class are restricted to good, druids to neutral and no class is restricted to evil. Is that unfair, too? As a monk, you still have the option to play vanilla and voila, you can be neutral. Paladins, rangers and druids don't have that option. Then, you have classes or kits that are restricted to lawful or non lawful - still, not seeing the issue.
My most hated alignment restriction is Bards - I would love a CG Bard. The must be part neutral requirement is a relic from first edition, when they got druid spells rather than mage spells.
From a roleplay angle, a bard as storyteller could be interpreted as "tells the story, but doesn't interfere with it", as in "stays neutral, as long as the story is interesting enough to be told". But with bards being playable characters and naturally interfering, it makes little sense. Chaotic would fit especially jesters. So yeah, I'd be all for changing this restriction.
An evil ranger would be interesting, too.
Interesting... but not "fair", because I still don't think it's unfair to have alignment restrictions for certain kits.
@Echon ...Huh? How is the Blackguard the worst of the bunch? You get spells, +2 saving throws, Turn Undead, full thac0 progression, a debuff, immunities and POISON. The poison part is really important since when combined with your better THAC0, it can poison multiple enemies and disrupt mages. The latter quite important.
Worst, as in the most overpowered. The Blackguard's advantages severely outweigh the disadvantages.
@ZelgadisGW Both monk kits also miss out on Stunning Blow, which to me is a pretty major downside. It can easily be argued that Stunning Blow is superior to either Chill Touch or Sun Soulray. The differences between the new kits and basic monks are simply a handful of once-per-day special abilities, some of which aren't even very good. Overall, the various monks will wind up pretty similar by the time BG2 rolls around. Keep in mind that Stunning Blow has a chance to stun with every single attack within the round, of which monks eventually get many, unlike its replacements for the new kits.
Dragon Disciples over the course of the whole game gain roughly 4 AC, potentially +2HP per level, +2 constitution, 100% FR, and a breath weapon, in exchange for loss of spellpower. At what point in the game are they overpowered?
At level 1, they can cast two spells per day, identical to a specialist mage, except that they can't learn any more than the two spells they start out with.
By level 3, they can cast four level 1 spells per day out of a potential total of three different spells, compared to a specialist mage who can cast three level 1 spells and two level 2 spells with nigh unlimited potential knowledge.
By level 9, Dragon Disciples will know a total of 12 spells, and will able to cast a total of 15 per day. A specialist mage at level 9 casts 17 spells per day, with unlimited knowledge of spells, and has the potential to cast level 5 spells.
By the time BG2 levels roll around a Dragon Disciple should catch up a bit, but by that point their dragon abilities aren't anything unusual and would be easily replicated by superior spellpower, which they don't have.
True, the DD doesn't get a mage school restriction, and not having to memorize spells means that they have better on-the-fly versatility compared to a mage who is in trouble if all he prepared is fireballs and he's fighting a water elemental, for example. But is that such a major problem?
Sorcerers don't strictly overshadow mages, and Dragon Disciples are almost certainly inferior to regular sorcerers. Same goes for monks. And I'm a little confused at your concern for "overpowered" kits. This isn't an MMO, your weakling Skald doesn't have to worry about my badass Inquisitor or something.
Comments
/nerd rant
Shadow Dancer is the only new kit (maybe besides Blackguard) which feels fair at the moment.
Sun Soul gets some nice stuff, but losing Quivering Palm is a high price.
...Huh?
How is the Blackguard the worst of the bunch?
You get spells, +2 saving throws, Turn Undead, full thac0 progression, a debuff, immunities and POISON.
The poison part is really important since when combined with your better THAC0, it can poison multiple enemies and disrupt mages. The latter quite important.
The main reason why I don't care for the Blackguard kit is simply because we already have the option to recruit Dorn. There aren't a whole lot of evil NPCs, and Dorn is arguably the most interesting and most powerful of the bunch. You have to be evil to play a blackguard, but you are also likely to use Dorn if you're evil, and having two blackguards in the same party is a bit much. I wouldn't be surprised if others have a similar line of thinking concerning the kit.
@ZelgadisGW
I don't follow your reasoning at all. Both new monk kits lose notable special abilities of the class, and while you can argue that their benefits outweigh the disadvantages, they certainly aren't without disadvantages. Besides, since when does lack of significant downsides ruin a kit? Show me anyone who plays unkitted paladins, for example. And the main power of a sorcerer is their ability to cast tons of spells per day, and if the current implementation of the Dragon Disciple's casting is accurate (as opposed to the kit's description), this power is significantly cut back in exchange for bonuses that could easily be considered useless. My enjoyment of the kit is for the flavor, not the power. I'd rather have a normal sorcerer for straight power.
Yet you choose Shadowdancer as the most balanced of the bunch? A class that, once it's properly implemented, will be able to turn invisible multiple times per fight without micromanagement in order to deliver repeated backstabs? Forget about the terrible skill progression, you can get another thief to handle lockpicking. The Shadowdancer is pretty much an invincible killing machine, both as a single class and a dual possibility.
Um, but here's the paradox. If the Blackguard kit didn't exist, you wouldn't have Dorn as it.
Combined with his 19 STR, practically +2 sword and poison, he's absolutely brutal.
And by the way, it's not too much if you have two Blackguards in your party. For my evil playthrough, my Blackguard would focus more on defense.
DEX Gloves, shield, best armor and longswords/bastard swords instead of Two-Handed Swords.
And still, two Blackguards means double the poison and I might be wrong, double the debuffs, if they stack.
Similarly to what I did with my good walkthrough. My Cavalier was using shields and longswords and had Minsc with two-handed swords. Then in ToB, I left Minsc and took Sarevok as they served the same role.
Edit:
That'll teach me to post while this tired. I missed the fact that you were responding to someone else's post. You're right, Blackguards rock.
I will disagree. I think that the Blackguard is an amazing kit and worth making a Charname one EVEN if we have Dorn for it. The kit is still great even if you don't take Dorn. I don't see how one cancels the other.
And I explained that two Blackguards have great synergy if they focus on different weapons.
And Blackguard is my favorite kit officially and period. Heh.
True, Dorn is one but the Blackguard is still a great kit on it's own and probably one of the best ones.
And speaking of which, I expect them to upgrade Rasaad to a Sun Soul Monk so that they stop calling him useless. It's pretty much an oversight now since he *is* a Sun Soul Monk but he doesn't *have* the Sun Soul Monk kit.
Of them all, I think the worse kit is actually the Dark Moon Monk.
Ok, first of all, monks:
You mean lack of Quivering Palm? That's certainly serious disadvantage in BG1, where you don't get it anyway. Sure, it might bite back in BG2, but that's another story for the moment. Also, I think that having no kit for neutral monk is not fair.
Now, Dragon Disciple. The way I understood it, he can cast one less spell per day than normal sorceror. 2 magic missiles per day at start instead of 3. Pure mage has only 1 slot avaliable then - DD still wins. Besides, that still doesn't change the fact that after beating BG one or two times you, as a player, exactly knows what spells are useful and what are not, so making optimal build for sorceror/dd is like walk in the park. Dragon Disciple recieves some really neat bonuses like more hit points, armor class bonus (contrary to what majority think, good AC can save mage's butt in early levels), fire resistance, breath attack... And it's still a sorceror - which roughtly means "overpowered mage for a lazy people".
Now, Shadowdancer. I forgot to mention that his backstab is supposed to be less potent than that of normal thief, which kind of nerfs this character. Of course, I made my opinion before I realized that this kit is seriously bugged, probably direct result of lacking any beta testing at all. But that's Overhaul's problem.
Still, this topic is about new FAVOURITE kit, so I choose Shadowdancer just because it's the only class I would like to play here.
PS. I forgot about Dwarven Defender. Meh, it doesn't affect my opinion.
Maybe I'm unable to understand due to not playing two-colour parties; like my current playthrough has Imoen/Khalid (good), Jaheira/Neera (neutral) and Viconia (evil). Apart from them not being the best of friends and Viconia moaning at high reputation levels, it's working out nicely. And I have 2 arcane casters, 2 divine casters and use all 3 plate wearers as frontline combatants (most of the time), so I don't see the whole problem with "roles" either.
I would love to see an evil ranger kit.
An evil ranger would be interesting, too.
Interesting... but not "fair", because I still don't think it's unfair to have alignment restrictions for certain kits.
People don't like monks.
I would like to see a few more kits that are available to only a single race
like " truesword " for halfing fighter
Loving my new Lawful Evil Dwarven Defender, if only I can duo him with my evil backstabber...
Oh wait
Both monk kits also miss out on Stunning Blow, which to me is a pretty major downside. It can easily be argued that Stunning Blow is superior to either Chill Touch or Sun Soulray. The differences between the new kits and basic monks are simply a handful of once-per-day special abilities, some of which aren't even very good. Overall, the various monks will wind up pretty similar by the time BG2 rolls around. Keep in mind that Stunning Blow has a chance to stun with every single attack within the round, of which monks eventually get many, unlike its replacements for the new kits.
Dragon Disciples over the course of the whole game gain roughly 4 AC, potentially +2HP per level, +2 constitution, 100% FR, and a breath weapon, in exchange for loss of spellpower. At what point in the game are they overpowered?
At level 1, they can cast two spells per day, identical to a specialist mage, except that they can't learn any more than the two spells they start out with.
By level 3, they can cast four level 1 spells per day out of a potential total of three different spells, compared to a specialist mage who can cast three level 1 spells and two level 2 spells with nigh unlimited potential knowledge.
By level 9, Dragon Disciples will know a total of 12 spells, and will able to cast a total of 15 per day. A specialist mage at level 9 casts 17 spells per day, with unlimited knowledge of spells, and has the potential to cast level 5 spells.
By the time BG2 levels roll around a Dragon Disciple should catch up a bit, but by that point their dragon abilities aren't anything unusual and would be easily replicated by superior spellpower, which they don't have.
True, the DD doesn't get a mage school restriction, and not having to memorize spells means that they have better on-the-fly versatility compared to a mage who is in trouble if all he prepared is fireballs and he's fighting a water elemental, for example. But is that such a major problem?
Sorcerers don't strictly overshadow mages, and Dragon Disciples are almost certainly inferior to regular sorcerers. Same goes for monks. And I'm a little confused at your concern for "overpowered" kits. This isn't an MMO, your weakling Skald doesn't have to worry about my badass Inquisitor or something.
/clap clap
Patch 2014 includes all of these kits and just landed. Some are a bit buggy or the descriptions are off, but they're there.