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A poll on NPC's from BG1 who were unjustly left out of BG2 (For BG2EE)

2

Comments

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    I think the poll options are clear enough, regardless of the exact wording. The result wouldn't be different if the options said yes-no-maybe.

    The main reason I would like to see at least one evil NPC carried over is simple. The game assumes who I travelled with, and covers the canon party as "have most likely been in BG1 party". Imoen, Khalid, Jaheira are among the first NPCs you meet, and Minsc is more iconic than any of the other options.
    This is just another thing where the game offers me to be neutral or evil, yet only caters to good-aligned parties. An evil BG1 charname does *not* have history with any of them (except growing up with Imoen). Evil BG1 charname probably has more history with Xzar and Monty - who you find doomed or already dead.
    It takes away the immersion to wake up in a dungeon, surrounded by Imoen - and a bunch of strangers who had no reason to be anywhere near me at the end of BG1, while the people you last saw, i.e. Shar-Teel, are nowhere to be found.

  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,204
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!

    An evil BG1 charname does *not* have history with any of them (except growing up with Imoen).

    Why not? What exactly pigeon holes who you travel with based on your alignment? The protagonist does not have the ability to cast Know Alignment at will. And if they did, would they really only keep likeminded individuals around? Seems odd to me. An evil person might keep some good companions around for the sake of appearances. A good person might still have evil companions due to their usefulness. It's not like they'd have the knowledge they could pick up others down the road "Oh it's okay to let Viconia go, in chapter 5 of my life I'll meet this guy Yeslick." either and might travel with people they morally disagree with as a precautionary measure.

    I'm all for having more options. Certainly starting with different companions is having more options. But saying "I cannot play with X companion because I am alignment so-and-so" is silly. And indeed restrictive, which is the opposite direction of what we'd like... By all means, I could see them mixing things up with putting others in the starting dungeon but saying this or that companion should be excluded/included based on protagonist's alignment because they'd never in a million years travel with someone outside their comfort zone is ridiculous.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    Of course it's up the player. But as an evil player, I'm way more likely to finish BG1 with a mainly evil, maybe mixed neutral-evil party than a good one. I have never finished the game with these NPCs in my party. I have not even gone past chapter 4 with any of them. No matter how much you roleplay it, assuming the NPCs say things similar to their banter lines during the journey, even the most dense person will get a feeling if they are "likeminded" and hence trustworthy (or at least have a good reason to stick around and remain loyal). Unless you metagame and intentionally avoid certain pairings, they can fight to the death. If nothing else, that should give charname a clue that they don't get along and force a choice. You can't cast "know alignment", but you also travel with these people night and day. You can't miss their general mindset if you don't decide to ignore it on purpose.
    Why does the game FORCE me to come to the conclusion that yes, even though charname wouldn't like any of them and keep a very different kind of company, he MUST have travelled with a bunch of goodie-twoshoes?

    Debaser
  • helmo1977helmo1977 Member Posts: 364
    I think the new NPC's will be fine enough. *Crosses fingers*
    I think the new npcs will be enough. The only thing i have always missed in bg 2 is a pure thief. I enjoyed Yoshimo a lot. It gave you a lot of tactical possibilities with his traps. I dont know why they left such a funny way of playing out (unless you are the plain thief). Jan is not the same

  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    edited February 2013
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    Fardragon said:

    Debaser said:

    Fardragon said:

    Biased poll is biased.

    @Fardragon

    If the poll had been biased I would not have included funny but real alternatives to the original post. The poll is designed to make you think about it logically within a certain set of parameters. And to make you laugh a bit. Also a lot of people seem to be in favor of the idea!
    You don't know much about poll design if you don't realise that including the word "unjustly" in one of your options (in larger sized letters, no less) renders your poll completly invalid.
    @Fardragon

    "Unjustly" fits. Due to time constraints on BG1 a lot of things involving NPC's, even new ones, were cut. The final product, and then later ToB even more so, were rushed in some areas.

    Also...this isn't a political campaign. I don't wok for Ovehaul or anything. It's a frame of reference to put a finger on the pulse of a question I wanted to ask.

    Not trying to be a jerk about it, but a biased poll would have been a yes or no option, using simpler language to try skew the vote even more. A FOX NEWS style rigged poll would have had a third option designed to detract from whichever choice I would have wanted people to make...and I would have spent more time on trying to convince people on how to feel rather than trying to explain that the practicalities of the change for those who would want it are rather simple and wouldn't detract from anything cannon or new.

    I never thought that everyone would want this. But I do. At least with the main Thieves. (Which in retrospect are maybe all you need to bring back)

    Post edited by Debaser on
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    edited February 2013
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    helmo1977 said:

    I think the new npcs will be enough. The only thing i have always missed in bg 2 is a pure thief. I enjoyed Yoshimo a lot. It gave you a lot of tactical possibilities with his traps. I dont know why they left such a funny way of playing out (unless you are the plain thief). Jan is not the same

    @helmo1977

    Well what if you had access to Alora, Coran, Safana (resurrected), and Shar-Teel dualed to Thief on top of any new thief characters Helmo? I know they wanted to bring Yoshimo back for ToB originally, but without changing what was actually released, you just had a few more options depending on alignment waiting for you at the Copper Coronet.

    You leave Ajantis dead, you leave Faldorn alone as an encounter...Garrick is still mooning over a knight of the radiant heart...and maybe Valygar and Korgan replace Kivan and Kagain.

    The problem is, instead of having a conversation where thoughts get revised and streamlined to something functional considering people's needs Vs wants and technical limitations...a lot of good ideas that could be maybe fly get overlooked.

    No new voice overs...just some more dialog written in. They're B-List characters but they add some depth in party choice. You can still go with the new NPC's too!

  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    If it could happen, Alora would be much appreciated. :) There are no Good thieves in BG2 who can still gain exp in the thief class. A non-neurotic Good cleric would be welcome too. :3

    Yes, if Shar-Teel was dualed over to a thief, that'd be great. :D Shar-Teel is great as a fighter too, but that would make 4 Evil fighters, 1 Evil mage, and 1 Evil cleric.

  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    tilly said:

    If it could happen, Alora would be much appreciated. :) There are no Good thieves in BG2 who can still gain exp in the thief class. A non-neurotic Good cleric would be welcome too. :3

    @tilly

    Yes, if Shar-Teel was dualed over to a thief, that'd be great. :D Shar-Teel is great as a fighter too, but that would make 4 Evil fighters, 1 Evil mage, and 1 Evil cleric.

    Well, she may not be a cleric, or good but Jaheria is a non Evil Healer who will go with you from the start of the game.

    And Arie is a Good Cleric / Mage who is honestly very powerful, even though I don't really care for her character all the time. She maybe levels a bit slower but she fits the bill.

    I think Shar-Teel should be dualed with a hard cap to Thief...or if you finish the game with her, have her levels adjusted to whatever you played.

    Safana maybe isn't doable (she supposedly dies), but I really like Alora, Coran and Shar-Teel coming back the more I think about it. I would love to be able to get Monty and Xzar after the Harper quest too just to have few more evil people around, but honestly if you just want to keep the game as is...adding those three really doesn't seem to have overlap with other characters...and they fill a void. (A good thief, a good archer style character, and an Evil fighter/Thief)

  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,204
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!

    Why does the game FORCE me

    That's what I'm saying as well; spesifically that it shouldn't. The game shouldn't force the party composition on you. Whether it's forced by a spesific default (as it is now) or a I/O switch based on alignment. Ideally there should be some sort of import or a dialogue that lets you select who you travelled with. Restricting your party build based on your alignment is not the way to go, even if it is temporary and just to get you through the first dungeon.

    Debaser
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    @Debaser
    Ah right, Jaheira has Harper's Call. Plus, EE has Neutral characters happy at high reputations. I always take her along anyways. :) I just like to have 2 cleric or half-clerics in the party.

    @Silverstar
    For the starting party arrangement in BG2, we're going to have to turn to modders and ask them nicely for some sort of selection feature. n.n I don't think the developers are allowed to change it.

  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited March 2013
    Debaser said:


    "Unjustly" fits. Due to time constraints on BG1 a lot of things involving NPC's, even new ones, were cut. The final product, and then later ToB even more so, were rushed in some areas.
    .

    No it doesn't. It's opinion, nothing more. You could make a poll that asks "do you think NPCs from Baldur's Gate where unjustly omitted form BG2?" Yes/no. That would be fine, since it is asking if others share your opinion. But your poll is a question equivelent to "have you stopped beating your wife?" Anyone who give an answer that is contrary to the one you are want is declaring themselves a supporter of injustice. You might think "oh good, everyone agrees with me" but in fact, no one looking at the result will take it seriously because it wasn't designed fairly. IF you design an unbiased poll, and it STILL shows a large number of people want characters from BG1 to appear in BG2, THEN you have a strong argument. But biased polls do more harm to their cause than good.

  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    Fardragon said:

    Debaser said:


    "Unjustly" fits. Due to time constraints on BG1 a lot of things involving NPC's, even new ones, were cut. The final product, and then later ToB even more so, were rushed in some areas.
    .

    No it doesn't. It's opinion, nothing more. You could make a poll that asks "do you think NPCs from Baldur's Gate where unjustly omitted form BG2?" Yes/no. That would be fine, since it is asking if others share your opinion. But your poll is a question equivelent to "have you stopped beating your wife?" Anyone who give an answer that is contrary to the one you are want is declaring themselves a supporter of injustice. You might think "oh good, everyone agrees with me" but in fact, no one looking at the result will take it seriously because it wasn't designed fairly. IF you design an unbiased poll, and it STILL shows a large number of people want characters from BG1 to appear in BG2, THEN you have a strong argument. But biased polls do more harm to their cause than good.

    @Fardragon

    Alright, I'll bite, it's a poll using my opinion as a basis. But even with a slight change in wording the results would be about the same I suspect. I didn't start this thread to bicker, I started it to see if people feel similarly and if there's a reasonable way to include a few overlooked characters back into the fray next time around.

    Again, not trying to be a jerk about it, but I think most people are smart enough to actually read the tone of what I've written here, along with my intent. While it maybe be evident that I am biased in my wishes...a fair of amount of folks feels similar.

    I might follow this up with a more refined poll based around a more condensed number of NPC's as well as with a more detailed plan entailing what I think would be simple / unobtrusive in how to implement including them...I will try my best to keep that a bit more objective in it's wording. Though, I suspect the numbers will be similar in split again.

    I struggle to see the "harm" this thread has done though. Honestly.

    Then again, I'm famously not a purist in real life. So I don't see myself boiling down to one ideologically over a game either.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,255
    edited March 2013
    Nah. I'm fine with not having any options for a straight thief. Ever. Really.
    @Debaser , I just made a pun about the "options for a straight thief" on the poll. Straight thief, got it?

    I just love Yoshimo from the bottom of my heart, but I appreciate his part on the plot.

    Debaser
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    DJKajuru said:

    @Debaser , I just made a pun about the "options for a straight thief" on the poll. Straight thief, got it?

    I just love Yoshimo from the bottom of my heart, but I appreciate his part on the plot.

    Haha, I get it now, sorry, I think sometimes inflection gets lost in all this text. Smirk worthy. =)

    DJKajuru
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    Please. A link to a cracked.com article. That's hardly Nate Silver talking about statistics. =P The poll was not designed to manipulate. It's just a poll.

    I do think a followup poll with a more refined question is in order but not yet.

    KidCarnival
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Debaser said:


    I struggle to see the "harm" this thread has done though. Honestly.

    No harm, if you don't actually want to see BG1 characters in BG2. But if you actually want to pursuade them to add them, then a fair poll with a lot of signatures can be quite pursuasive.

    In my opinion, whilst BG2 would benefit greatly from a greater range of NPCs to choose from, most of the BG1 NPCs are very scetchy - just a few lines of biography and a few stats. You would be basically making them from scratch anyway. In addition, it doesn't really make sense for all those characters to show up in Amn, several hundred miles to the south of their usual haunts. Credability is already stretched by all the cameos. So MORE NPCs for BG2, yes. But it really doesn't matter if they are new or old.

    However, there are exceptions I would make. Whilst Imoen and Jalhera have good reasons for being in CHARNAME's party when they are captured at the beginning of BG2, it really doesn't make much sense for Minsc to be in a party with an evil protagonist. I would be inclined to substitute him for an evil BG1 NPC if the protagonist is evil. Shar-teel would be a logical choice, since she can dual class to thief.

    In addition, logically, it should be possible to resurrect Monteron, and there is no good reason why Coran shouldn't rejoin the party.

    So it's really a matter of looking at each character on a case by case basis, rather than a blanket "all BG1 NPCs should be in BG2".

    EudaemoniumDebaser
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I have no idea why Irenicus decided to put those Dopplegangers in your cell-room with you. I can only assume he was hoping that you had amnesia, and had somehow forgotten about that entire BG1 plotline. I remember Candlekeep. No fake Minsc and Jaheira are going to get the drop on me!

    SilverstarKidCarnivalDJKajuru
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    Interesting Npc Follower that would be logical if they would be available In BG2

    * Safana Is very interesting Npc to have as Follower She is C.N in aligment that means that she could be in evil or good Charname party. plus her temptress seductress behaviour is very interesting and non of the other BG2 Npc charachter have her style. we say we should be able to resurrected her... after all in BG1 we could resurrect A cat, a little boy commoner, dog, fox, rat donky *sarcasm*

    *Ski is another interesting Thief that could be avableble in BG2 she is T.N in aligment that means she can be both in Evil or good party... storywise it could be that Shar-Teel killed the evil kidnapper Eldoth. and now she is an adventurer and hanging with Shar-Teel when you find her in BG2

    * Corin i still don't understand why we can't have Corin in BG2... biowere did a mistake in BG2..
    after all he is a ladysman that means he could have been love interest of female Charname or he would try hit on all other female NPC in BG2... he is after all almost based on Robin Hood.

    * Shar-Teel should be in BG2 simple... she has an interesting personality... and would be interesting if she also would be the love interest of Charname.... think about it.. it would be one crazy funny dialog thing to add to the game.. she should come as pure fighter and those player that want dual class her should do it themselves.

    * Xan he is simply to fun to be left out.... they should multiclass him to a uniq Fighter/Enchanter.. then he would have more use of his sword... i love Enchanter class..... there could be some funny dialog whith Xan around

    * Alora: sadly she is almost an endgame npc character that you could recruit.. that means storywise charname and she didn't have enough time to know each other. plus Mizzy cutness would be gone if Alora would be around... one Cute NPC fallower is enough.


    * Branwen: crazy True neutral Cleric of the war god Tempus.... yes please... why shouldn't she be with Charname... thats illogical. charname brings war.. she should be at his side

    * Tiax... hmm didn't he disintegrated and overkilled by Irenicus????... would be hard to bring that Npc back to life..

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,507
    I think the new NPC's will be fine enough. *Crosses fingers*
    I only solo the game and don't care. Blah Blah Blah.....
    0%

    So, it seems those who solo the game don't care to say they don't care about the subject.

    Anyway, I don't care about those who don't care!

    Debaser
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,255
    Nah. I'm fine with not having any options for a straight thief. Ever. Really.
    I prefer that these old npc's be taken from mods, instead of changing the whole plot.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    My preference would be a simple check on an imported charname and 3 potential NPCs (Minsc - good, Shar-Teel - evil, Branwen - neutral, for the lack of a neutral aligned fighter class NPC from BG1): which of these NPCs has spent the most time in the BG1 party? If NPC1, it's him/her in the cage. In the case of 2 NPCs having spent equal amounts of time (i.e. Minsc and Branwen are tied), it's the one with the same alignment as charname (though I expect it to be very rare that 2 NPCs tie if they aren't paired).

    Imoen needs to be there for plot reasons. Jaheira and Khalid are probably there even if they weren't in your BG1 party because of their promise to Gorion. Leaves us with:

    Minsc is already there for whatever reason. Shar-Teel could be there for the same unspecified reason. Before Dorn, she was the evil counterpart to Minsc; the frontline damage dealer. Branwen is the closest thing to that from the neutral NPCs; as a priest of Tempus she's a warrior.

    I don't mean to diss Minsc, but he simply has no more reason to be there than any other NPC. Having at least the option to replace him with Shar-Teel would result in a good-neutral-evil balance with the 3 NPCs you wake up with. Though it would be awesome to have even more choices (and choices are always good), that would feel balanced and unbiased enough.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!

    * Tiax... hmm didn't he disintegrated and overkilled by Irenicus????... would be hard to bring that Npc back to life..

    Tiax is an inmate in the prison. He's alive when you meet him and joins you in the fight. He's not recruitable and will usually be killed in the battle, but it wouldn't be a stretch to make him recruitable if you manage to keep him alive.

  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    edited March 2013
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    Then I would recommend that only those who have bought BGEE1 should get the access to recruit or save Safana , Ski, Corin, Shar-Teel , Xan , Branwen and Tiax. when we importing our Charname from BGEE1 to BGEE2 the game in BGEE unlock those character for the player who have bought a Overhaul game..

    this will help Overhaul to sell more BGEE1 get more money for Bg3

    the bonus extra Npc that are in BGEE (the wild mage, Black Guard orc and that Calimshan Monk) will be automatically added to BGEE2 (i would be suprised if they didn't) plus 1 or 2 additional New Npc only for BGEE 2 version (maybe an Npc Assassom or Skald follower would be preferred to be added)

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    The new NPCs will all be in BG2EE plus an evil thief, likely a female; race yet unkown.

  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    DJKajuru said:

    I prefer that these old npc's be taken from mods, instead of changing the whole plot.

    @DJKajuru

    If you read closely, the plot would not change, not one iota. The ones that make the cut go straight to the Copper Corornet to be recruit-able. That's it. At no point do I suggest changing plot, nor do I think or suggest bringing back the ones who die in the story or who are used as plot devices (Tiax, Ajantis, Garrick, etc) is the way of it.

    I'm talking about bringing back a solid few, mostly thieves and sticking them in your favorite Inn.

  • OzzyBotkinsOzzyBotkins Member Posts: 396
    I think the new NPC's will be fine enough. *Crosses fingers*
    BG:EE has given us 4 very good new NPCs
    with a promise that there will be more NPCs in BG2:EE
    we already know that 1 will be an evil female thief
    ( I have not heard what race or kit yet )
    There was very little character development for the original NPCs back when BG1 first came out
    To bring them back at this point seems to be unnecessary
    If the main point of this poll was that BG2:EE will need more thief options
    I am fine with that But it would be better to develope new thief characters
    with their own special abilities and questlines
    and use old NPCs like Coran, Shar teel and Auroa as role models for the new characters
    Instead of just digging up the old ones and " sticking them in your favorite Inn. "

  • DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    Just installed the Alora mod for BG2 and it really shows me how much I've missed a pure thief in that game. Big ups to the mods creator.

    Debaser
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    Heck YES! I would love to be able to mix it up and have some more options with characters I miss from BG1! Make it so Jean Luc Picard!
    ! o_o

    Alora mod~~ >:3 She'll definitely be in party if no Good thieves are added to BG2:EE.

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