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Wizards and Crossbows

24

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  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    edited May 2013

    atcDave said:

    Actually crossbow is completely not a fighters weapon. Its a piece of fine engineering, used so non-warriors can have a chance against a well armored foe. In fact, I think a mage would be more interested in a crossbow than a peasant weapon like a sling.
    And a mage is as strong and fit as his scores indicate; its an error to make such generalizations. And I think mage robes are no more cumbersome than cloaks and robes worn by other nobles in a medieval setting.
    Honestly, the only reason to follow the rule, is because its a rule. I think all logic suggests its a good weapon for a mage. I could imagine clerics and paladins objecting, but not a mage.

    Even then, there were only optional rules about Paladins objecting because "distance is for wussies!".
    Yeah its funny, I had used a house rule in my PNP game that the only missile weapon Paladins could use was a spear/javelin long before 2E even came out. A good warrior should look his opponent in the eye. And actually, the spear/javelin thing came from my love of ancient Greek history and mythology. Bows and slings were considered coward's weapons in the Mycenean period. Spears/javelins were more heroic because they required strength, agility and long training to use effectively. So that seemed like a great rationale for a fantasy Paladin to me. I loved it when 2E came out and they set exactly the same restriction on Cavaliers. Of course I still extend the restriction to all Paladins.

    [Deleted User]Eudaemonium
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,425
    atcDave said:

    Yeah its funny, I had used a house rule in my PNP game that the only missile weapon Paladins could use was a spear/javelin long before 2E even came out. A good warrior should look his opponent in the eye. And actually, the spear/javelin thing came from my love of ancient Greek history and mythology. Bows and slings were considered coward's weapons in the Mycenean period. Spears/javelins were more heroic because they required strength, agility and long training to use effectively. So that seemed like a great rationale for a fantasy Paladin to me. I loved it when 2E came out and they set exactly the same restriction on Cavaliers. Of course I still extend the restriction to all Paladins.

    :D! Fits a kit whose entire schtick is "LEEROY JENKINS!". Myself, I'd give them the option of throwing weapons that have melee components.
    CaptRory said:

    @SCARY_WIZARD I'd like to roll up a Paladin that uses a cannon. A Holy Mithril Cannon of Smiting. Maybe with a bayonet lug on it so he can charge into battle with it after firing.

    *Evil Wizard summons a giant demon*
    *Paladin shoots demon in the face with cannon*
    *Party goes out for ice cream*

    :D

    [Deleted User]
  • ReadingRamboReadingRambo Member Posts: 598
    edited May 2013
    I agree with folks that slings on mages is silly compared to wielding xbows. I sometimes edit item files to allow xbows to be used by mages and SK a pip in the proficiency. Its typically not a problem for me tho since my favorite mages are Imoen and Jan, who both have access anyways.


    However, when I used Baeloth it seemed quite fitting for him to use a crossbow, being a drow and all

    Edit: I just remembered that I also do this for Viconia. Having weapons that match a characters persona is more important to me than following 2nd Eds silly rules

    francoLemernisBelgarathMTH
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,846
    Two words: Game balance.

    From a realism stand point, yes, mages being unable to use crossbows is quite laughable.

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 567
    Samus said:

    If you had a large enough crossbow I imagine you could fire a halfling wizard from it...

    Isn't that called a ballista?

    [Deleted User]Quartz
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    atcDave said:

    Quartz said:

    Two words: Game balance.

    From a realism stand point, yes, mages being unable to use crossbows is quite laughable.

    There is no balance issue. Mages already have darts which are mathematically superior weapons. It was an arbitrary choice made by EGG in the mid-70s. We can follow it, or change it; but bottom line is, it's an arbitrary rule.
    Exactly this.

    (Slings are also better than xbows if you have a high Strength, which a Mage usually can, due to being able to cast Strength on himself.)

  • CoM_SolaufeinCoM_Solaufein Member Posts: 2,599
    2E has a lot of oversights. Don't get me wrong, I love that rule set, but back in the PnP days we played a modified version. I recall our rules allowed mages to use bows and crossbows. As stated crossbows aren't that hard to use.
    atcDave said:

    I think not allowing mages to use crossbows was an oversight in 2E (and earlier) rules, plain and simple. IRL, crossbows were designed to be idiot-proof, usable by anyone. I've long allowed mages to use them in my PNP campaign, its the sort of thing that's simple enough to fix in PNP (ditto for clubs by the way). But with a CRPG you do run into the timeless question of, when is it okay to stray from the core rules? I completely sympathize with the developers decision to stick close to the core rules on this. But I wouldn't hesitate to download a universal crossbow mod either...

    franco
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933

    2E has a lot of oversights. Don't get me wrong, I love that rule set, but back in the PnP days we played a modified version. I recall our rules allowed mages to use bows and crossbows. As stated crossbows aren't that hard to use.

    atcDave said:

    I think not allowing mages to use crossbows was an oversight in 2E (and earlier) rules, plain and simple. IRL, crossbows were designed to be idiot-proof, usable by anyone. I've long allowed mages to use them in my PNP campaign, its the sort of thing that's simple enough to fix in PNP (ditto for clubs by the way). But with a CRPG you do run into the timeless question of, when is it okay to stray from the core rules? I completely sympathize with the developers decision to stick close to the core rules on this. But I wouldn't hesitate to download a universal crossbow mod either...

    Yeah I agree entirely. I love 2E, but its not exactly holy writ! Part of what's so appealing about it is how easily it can be modified and adapted for any game. I've never known a DM who didn't have a number of house rules, I know I certainly did (and Mages using crossbows and clubs were among them). Even BG has plenty of its own adaptions. 2E is like a starting point. Even the core books are loaded with optional rules and suggestions.

    franco[Deleted User]Jarrakul
  • JohnSmith921030JohnSmith921030 Member Posts: 10
    Samus said:

    If you had a large enough crossbow I imagine you could fire a halfling wizard from it...

    In Soviet Russia crossbows use wizards.

    Mmm, wizard ammo...

    DJKajuru
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    Way I see it is this. I have it in me to be one of the best Baseball players in the National League. I can easily learn the mechanics of the game as they aren't that difficult or confusing. I can dedicate the requisite time to practice and coordination and strength training every single day to build up my body to the peak of performance. I can train my eye/hand coordination such that I can hit any pitch, no matter how fast; and further power it out of the park every single time. I could do all of this and more, but I'd much rather be reading a book or working on my computer.

    Point I am trying to make is this. Any mage that I play, "CAN" be the best 'Fighter' in the group should he so choose. he or she has the potential to learn any martial skill they so choose, but why would they want too? I always play my wizards as being consumed almost obsessively towards learning magic. Every single waking moment is spent either studying magic or using it. He can pull out a crossbow and take up target practice for 2-3 hours a day and become proficient, but he would much rather be learning Magic. And he believes that eventually spending time learning any kind of martial skill is ultimately useless as his magic will eventually be a much more efficient manner of achieving whatever he wants to do.

    Also, from an RP perspective, I think that a wizard wouldn't 'intuit' that only through killing monsters and completing quests does he gain magic power. The adventuring thing is merely a vehicle for finding new and hidden arcane magics. The game mechanic of 'Adventure leads to experience leads to advancement' is not the way my characters see the world. they see that the more they perform their skill sets, the better they get at them.

    I am not saying every mage thinks as I see them thinking. I am not saying every player needs to accept my philosophy on the topic. merely that any wizard that I play is more likely to shriek like a girl and duck and cover when faced with a hulking orc bearing down on him with a cruel axe rather than attempt to stand up and best the creature in hand to hand combat. And that the pursuit of magic is the one and only true calling to be followed and adhered to. And that all other priorities are secondary and of little actual tangible.

    Troodon80[Deleted User]
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065

    I always play my wizards as being consumed almost obsessively towards learning magic. Every single waking moment is spent either studying magic or using it. He can pull out a crossbow and take up target practice for 2-3 hours a day and become proficient, but he would much rather be learning Magic.

    People in this thread are saying that Crossbows are a weapon which requires LESS practice time to gain proficiency than Slings or Darts.

    Why would your Wizard choose a weapon which requires MORE practice time, rather than LESS time?

    Or are you saying your Wizard has zero weapon proficiencies? (That's not an option in BG, of course.)

    BelgarathMTHReadingRambo
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    Nifft said:

    I always play my wizards as being consumed almost obsessively towards learning magic. Every single waking moment is spent either studying magic or using it. He can pull out a crossbow and take up target practice for 2-3 hours a day and become proficient, but he would much rather be learning Magic.

    People in this thread are saying that Crossbows are a weapon which requires LESS practice time to gain proficiency than Slings or Darts.

    Why would your Wizard choose a weapon which requires MORE practice time, rather than LESS time?

    Or are you saying your Wizard has zero weapon proficiencies? (That's not an option in BG, of course.)
    I don't know more from less as far as this is concerned. I do know that learning to crank an Xbow, load it and fire accurately while someone is swinging an axe at your head (requiring not only accuracy but also a cool head and a great deal of practice) would seem to me to be quite a bit more onerous to learn and practice than to merely chuck a dart in the general direction of an attacking opponent and hoping.

    Not saying by any means that a wizard couldn't learn such a skill. They can, same as anyone else (at least conceptually). Just saying that why would they want too? It would take practice and training. Just ask anyone who has ever been in real combat. But again, they can do it.

    but more or less yes. I play my wizards such that, if they have to resort to mundane non magical means, they feel like they have failed. But I also play my wizards such that they faint at the sight of their own blood, so I may not be playing the 'Typical' wizard. They see any skill at all in martial weapons as merely innate luck and mind over matter rather than 'Training'.

    [Deleted User]Troodon80
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    In 3ed wizards can use crossbows just fine. Indeed, it is often a very good tactic at low levels

    BelgarathMTH
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065

    (...) fire accurately while someone is swinging an axe at your head (requiring not only accuracy but also a cool head and a great deal of practice) would seem to me to be quite a bit more onerous to learn and practice than to merely chuck a dart in the general direction of an attacking opponent and hoping.

    Throwing accurately under pressure actually seems harder than just pulling the trigger on a gun-like device. Certainly loading a sling is more time-consuming than just stepping on the lever of a light xbow.

    I play my wizards such that, if they have to resort to mundane non magical means, they feel like they have failed. But I also play my wizards such that they faint at the sight of their own blood, so I may not be playing the 'Typical' wizard. They see any skill at all in martial weapons as merely innate luck and mind over matter rather than 'Training'.

    Generally my characters are gritty veterans in a gritty world. In the last D&D game where I played a Wizard, he was the last man standing in two large melees, and he was the only thing standing between us and a TPK. He used tricks like Shield and battlefield teleportation; he took a feat to hit things with out needing Strength; after he'd exhausted all his spells, he used whatever creative trickery he could.

    He never touched a crossbow, but if using one looked like his best option, he would have done so without hesitation. He was a scarred survivor in a brutal world.

    BelgarathMTH
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I support this idea. From a realism standpoint, as many others have pointed out, crossbows are easy weapons to use, requiring neither extensive training nor (with the hand crank models) great physical strength. I don't think there's a weapon on the list that's more perfectly suited for the low-level adventuring mage (the high-level adventuring mage needs no silly weapons).

    As for game balance, it's still fine. Crossbows do an extra 1 point of damage (on average) compared to slings. That's... not exactly gonna turn the mage into a fighter. If anything, it'll add just a little early-game bonus to a class that could use just a little early-game bonus. And as good as many of the magic crossbow bolts are, they're still no better than the magic darts.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    @Nifft - I think you are confusing Xbows of today versus the styles that I imagine were "actually in use" in that type of a setting. It is by no means merely 'Stepping on a lever', or so I imagine. I am no expert on this matter though, so I can't speak with definition. merely I imagine the types of Xbows that I have seen in "King Arthur" type movies. In other words, feed in the bolt, crank the 'Bow' until it clicks. Then line up a shot. If you think that is easier than wrapping a stone with a strap and swinging away, then more power to you.

    But again, my point isn't that it is too difficult. Merely that there is a level of difficulty involved. And my wizards simply can't be bothered to practice (a little or a lot makes no difference) when they could be using that same time to study magic. I am saying that (from an RP perspective, and admittedly my own personal view), the limitation isn't an inability on the mage's part, but simply that there wouldn't be a generally huge desire to learn the skill.

    At the end of the day, EGG and co. made the rule to 'Balance' mages roles in the party. Quite a lot of the rules that they set down didn't make a lot of sense, but you took the good with the bad. Did they screw up? Quite probably. Make a house rule and be done.

    For me, my mages would be perfectly happy with no martial proficiency ability. They'd be more than happy to 'Have' to rely strictly on the Arcane. But that's me. Others have other views of wizards, and that's fine as well. Makes for a richer game than simply a single cookie cutter view.

    [Deleted User]
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,658
    Someone also mentioned "arbitrary rules". To quote the Big Bang Theory

    Sheldon: All games are made up. They’re not found in nature. You don’t just dig in the ground, come across a rich vein of Rock’em Sock’em Robots.

    All rules are arbitrary. But if you start pulling on threads the whole game will unravel. So you need to be careful when modifying the works of others.

    [Deleted User]
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    edited May 2013

    @Nifft - I think you are confusing Xbows of today versus the styles that I imagine were "actually in use" in that type of a setting. It is by no means merely 'Stepping on a lever', or so I imagine. I am no expert on this matter though, so I can't speak with definition. merely I imagine the types of Xbows that I have seen in "King Arthur" type movies. In other words, feed in the bolt, crank the 'Bow' until it clicks.

    I think what you are talking about are what the game calls heavy xbows. The ones which require a separate hand crank, and require a high Strength rating to use, because you must wind the crank with your upper body -- and in P&P, they can only be fired once every 2 rounds, because the cranking is time-consuming.

    I think the light xbows are the ones with a lever to reset the bow's tension. They are simpler to operate, and don't have a Strength requirement. Those can be fired once per round in P&P.

    Repeating crossbows date back to ancient Greece.

    But that's me. Others have other views of wizards, and that's fine as well. Makes for a richer game than simply a single cookie cutter view.

    Can't argue with that! :-)

    Cheers, -- N

    atcDave
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    edited May 2013
    @the_spyder: I appreciate your argument, but right now the mechanics support the idea that mages spend some time (not much, but some) practicing their martial skills. That's the only way they're gonna get those weapon proficiencies and THACO0 improvements on level up, after all.

    As for the difficulty, your point is well made, but I have just as much trouble imagining using a sling at point-blank range under pressure (for reference, this is what using a sling looks like [EDIT: video embedded below]). While loading a crossbow under those circumstances would be pretty difficult, firing a loaded one would be much, much easier than using a sling.

    EDIT: Hm. I meant to link the video, but it seems to be embedding. Well, just skip to the 1-minute mark and you'll see what I'm refering to.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lSreXRMhrO4#t=60s

    BelgarathMTH
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    CaptRory said:

    Someone also mentioned "arbitrary rules". To quote the Big Bang Theory

    Sheldon: All games are made up. They’re not found in nature. You don’t just dig in the ground, come across a rich vein of Rock’em Sock’em Robots.

    All rules are arbitrary. But if you start pulling on threads the whole game will unravel. So you need to be careful when modifying the works of others.

    LOL. Cheers for the quote. That's great. Also, did you see the one where Howard is Dungeon Master?

    As far as the rules are concerned, in a DM run PnP game where the DM can change things on the fly I don't see anything that would 'Break' if Wizards were all of the sudden able to wield swords and maces. I am sure that any decent DM would throw in other 'Balancers' to make his/her vision of the game work. And if not, so long as everyone has fun, who cares?

    BG is a video game and so is probably a bit more fragile than all of that. Still, my 12th level Wizard in BG2 has something like a THAC0 of 13 (more or less). Korgan on the other hand has a THAC0 of zero with his 'axes Bloody ready'. The wizard is never going to challenge Korgan for HtH damage dealing.

    [Deleted User]Eudaemonium
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,658
    @the_spyder I agree~ It doesn't make sense to me to restrict weapons at all. And GMs are more than able to figure out what works in their game.

    [Deleted User]Eudaemonium
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    Crossbows are absolutely categorically easier to use and master than any other missile weapon in the game. Especially light crossbows (as Nifft mentioned, Heavy Crossbows are a little more complicated) they were designed to be idiot proof. Originally Greek, also used by the Romans, and became quite popular in the Middle Ages when the need arose for a simpler weapon to counter the English Long Bow.

    So I would also say the rule not allowing them to Mages is arbitrary and not needed for game balance. But it is a long standing AD&D rule, that has even worked its way into the lore of the game and much fantasy literature. As a DM, I always allow mages to use crossbows. But that is a change to the core rules, it would be wrong to expect such a change in BG. It advertises 2E rules, and should be expected to follow them in most cases.

    [Deleted User]Eudaemonium
  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110
    Nifft said:

    Throwing accurately under pressure actually seems harder than just pulling the trigger on a gun-like device. Certainly loading a sling is more time-consuming than just stepping on the lever of a light xbow.

    Having actually owned several crossbows in my time, I would tend to disagree. You don't actually step on a lever, you put your foot into the stirrup to hold it down while you pull the bow strings. Loading a sling requires only the time it takes to actually put a stone into it, launching it is what takes the time and practice. Loading a crossbow requires that the drawstrings be cocked, then requires the bolt to be loaded. Depending on the type of crossbow, this might be by some sort of lever, winch, or simply by hand.

    Winches can be slow, so you're at the mercy of a mechanic while you could, instead, be launching off a Flame Arrow, Melf's Acid Arrow, or even a plain old Fireball.

    Levers on the shaft or cocking by hand requires strength, differing amounts depending on the pounds pressure and flexibility of the bow and string(s), a mundane effort that probably wouldn't seem worth it to a mage.

    (Please don't take that sentence out of context... minds go to the gutter often enough as it is.)

    They're also quite large in comparison to slings. A sling can be put into a pouch or pocket of a robe, whereas carrying a crossbow around isn't exactly subtle.

    From a role playing perspective: if a mage is using a crossbow, then they can't cast magic very easily, if they want to cast magic that requires both hands, then it means throwing it on the ground or attaching it to a clasp or harness, severely limiting the movements required to cast some of the more intricate spells. Different crossbows also require different types of treatment, too, so as not to cripple accuracy, and any mechanism like a winch in BG would require oiling or greasing to keep it serviceable.

    No mage I play would be bothered with such effort when magic would suffice. As you might notice, most of the weapons a mage can use are small, barring the staff. A staff can be used as a cane or walking stick, and can also have some magical properties. A dagger can be easily sheathed and hidden while also not weighing much (example: plain dagger being weight 1, while the light crossbow is 5, 6, or 7). A sling can, likewise, be put away and not cause any hindrance (weight 0 for slings in BG:EE).

    (Of course, in BG, you don't see any of the loading, but in general they do require more strength to use.)

    All of that while a large ogre is bearing down on you and you have to actually aim and fire.

    Having said that, though, if such a rule was implemented it would require a differentiation between light crossbows and heavy crossbows in proficiencies, similar to short bows and long bows, as heavy crossbows weigh more and require more strength and time to load.

    A magic missile would suffice in most cases.

    NifftEudaemoniumReadingRambo
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @Troodon80 - When I can drop multiple Fireball spells per day, then it might be time to disregard mundane weapons. But that's NOT most of the game.

    For most of the game, my character WILL run out of magic if he casts a spell every round. I guess he could just go to sleep after every encounter ("15 minute work day"), but that's not how I like to play.

    We can just chalk this up to a playstyle difference, I guess.
    Troodon80 said:

    From a role playing perspective: if a mage is using a crossbow, then they can't cast magic very easily, if they want to cast magic that requires both hands, then it means throwing it on the ground or attaching it to a clasp or harness, severely limiting the movements required to cast some of the more intricate spells.

    Don't even start with that. A Blade Bard can cast magic spells just fine with a sword in each hand.

    Any Wizard can cast just fine with a staff in his hands.

    These are not niche characters, they are core to the concept.

  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110
    edited May 2013
    Nifft said:

    A Blade Bard can cast magic spells just fine with a sword in each hand.

    Any Wizard can cast just fine with a staff in his hands.

    These are not niche characters, they are core to the concept.

    Certainly, a Blade can cast spells just fine. But need I remind you that they also can't gain spell slots over about level 6 wizard spells. What I'm saying is that rather than having to account for something so intricate in detail, it is easier to just leave crossbows to actual fighters, and leave the smaller, light weight weapons to wizards.

    Like @the_spyder said, it's a matter of play style, and there's probably no real reason to have restrictions as any person should be able to become proficient in any area. But there is still no decent reason, that I can see, for allowing it. Why would a mage dedicate time trying to learn something other than magic? Sure, they can dedicate time to building them and enchanting them, but why would they bother learning how to use them? That's time better spent scribing another spell or searching for the fabled Ring of Wizardry.

    If it were me - and when I take the role of a mage in-game, it is - my pursuit is magic. I have no use for items such as crossbow since magic fills that area. When my memorised spells are depleted, that's when I fall back on the countless scrolls I have. For example, I've owned a few Barnett crossbows in my time, I've also owned long bows, short bows, and compound bows. None of which are actually all that difficult to master. If you allow crossbows, then those other bows should be allowed, which also opens a whole can of worms about allowing all weapons. After all, a short sword is only a bigger dagger.

    The comment above about unravelling the game kicks into effect.

    Some of the rules, or guidelines, are there to try and make you think about what sort of character you want. If you really want a character that can cast spells and use any type of weapon with limited proficiency, then there is the Bard. If you want someone dedicated to magic, then you pick either sorcerer or mage. Each build has its own perks, without giving you everything on a silver platter. Mages can cast intricate high level spells such as Time Stop, Meteor Storm, etc., from memory, whereas a Bard can't, but generally have lower hit points since they're put into intelligence - otherwise you have a large number of dud spell scrolls laying around from those vain attempts to scribe the spells. A Bard, on the other hand, can cast lower level spells but can have a limited proficiency in all weapons. The difference being this: a Bard, by their very nature, is like a Jack of all trades. A mage specialises purely in the pursuit of magic.

    Then you have the Fighter/Mage multi-class (non-human) that can use crossbows and cast high level spells, but you have a slower level gain to look forward to. The dual-class or multi-class versions can operate like a battle mage.

    [Deleted User]the_spyder
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    The argument I think does have some merit is the idea the crossbow is maybe too cumbersome for a Mage to want to carry. Although I wonder how consistently a player might apply this idea, and I tend to think like the commenter who observed bards don't seem to have a problem with it, I could imagine a rule/policy of mages not being able to carry any item with significant encoumberance. That might make for an interesting role playing challenge! Now about those bags of gold...

    ReadingRambo[Deleted User]lunarLemernis
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    As @Troodon80 indicated, all of My mages are so focused on learning magic that they can't be bothered to spend any time at all learning weapons and the like.

    I suspect that EGG and company were trying to fit Wizards into the classic mold of being wizdened old codgers who hit people with sticks rather than actual fencers. At the end of the day, they were trying to make checks and balances such that picking wizard as a class didn't mean that you were a jack of all trades AND have awesomely powerful spells too boot. I think this was a flaw as, like I said above, at 13th level, my Wizard has a THAC0 of 13 whereas Korgan has a THAC0 of zero. Even if my wizard was capable of wielding the same weapon, he would never EVER come even close to doing the same amount of damage. It kind of self balances from THAC0 perspective.

    Either way, it's one of those weird rules that you just have to roll your eyes at.

    BelgarathMTH[Deleted User]
  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110

    wizdened old codgers who hit people with sticks

    Heeeeeeeeey...

    I'll have you know my mage uses moisturiser every day, on top of that he hasn't hit a single person with his stick that didn't deserve it.

    BelgarathMTH
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