Dragon diciple or Sorcerer?
Aron740
Member Posts: 153
Hey, I have almost finished the game with my human berserker but now I really feel like trying out a mage like class and thought the sorcerer with its pros were awesome but then I looked at the Dragon Disciple and I can't figure out why someone would chose sorcerer over the dragon disciple.
So what am I missing? The dragon disciple looks exactly like the Sorcerer only with more pros like armor and breath spells? Can the DD use fewer spells or something like that?
So what am I missing? The dragon disciple looks exactly like the Sorcerer only with more pros like armor and breath spells? Can the DD use fewer spells or something like that?
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Anyway, the bonuses don't make up for it and I'd pick a DD only for the RP flavour.
A DD can cast fewer spells per day than a Sorceror ?
But DD casts 1spell less/level.
If it really means "may only cast up to four spells of each known level per day", then that is a mistake that needs to be changed in the description, since as written, it is causing a lot of confusion.
And if it does mean the second thing, then you are choosing fire resistance, extra AC, extra constitution, and a dangerously difficult to use breath weapon (except in a solo), in exchange for losing quite a few memorized spell castings per day. That tradeoff might be worth it, especially if you are either playing solo or in a party with another arcane caster.
However, if it means the first thing, you would be sacrificing flexibility in a class that already has a problem with flexibility.
Also, if it's the "may only cast up to four spells of each known level per day", then it is not accurate to say "one less spell per day" - it may work out that way during part of the BG:EE levels, but at SoA and ToB levels, the DD would be losing quite a handful of castings of lower level spells per day - like magic missiles, webs, mirror images, invisibility, and eventually hastes and fireballs/minute meteors/flame arrows.
I'm not sure if the fire resistance might increase the survivability in BG2 enough to make the tradeoff worth it. If you have a conservative arcane casting style, which I do, it might be a good trade. I don't think the AC would do much good, but the extra hit points might make the difference between living and dying if you get hit with an AoE. I might give it a try when BG2:EE comes out.
I see, the description is still bugged. It works like this:
Sorcerer: max 5 spells/level known, can cast max 6 spells/level.
Dragon Disciple: max 5 spells/level known, can cast max 5 spells/level.
Confirmed by @Jalily here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/16440/incorrect-spells-per-day-for-dragon-disciple/p1
These are the levels a Sorcerer gains a spell level. Effectively, the DD would be replacing one spell per spell level with a breath attack.
Then, it should deal 1d4 damage per caster level with no cap, no save. Or 1d6 with a save for half. The important thing is that it needs to scale forever and be about as powerful as a midlevel spell.
The CON bonuses are carried over from 3E and mean essentially nothing here in 2E. The fire resistance is convenient, but situational and easy to achieve through other means. The AC bonuses are similarly useless, because a DD will never get an AC low enough to matter.
In that case, 1d4 and 1d6 does not help "tremendously", it's just ... better :-)
Yes. it is an advantage if you are going to solo or want to use your DragonDisciple in the front lines for his/her flame breath ability.
I've never played one either, but I might. Once the devs release another patch with fixes.
The true power of this kit can be looked here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm
In fact this class has major overpower bonus that could be adapted for BG if people want, but the major fact is that this class is intented for melee spellcasters made in the 3.5 Ed system, a place where dual class (triple or quadruple also), isn't something so restricted.
To work pleny, this class would need to allow a character to dual from a melee class for dragon disciple class (what is impossible given the bind in dual to kits existent on BG). Even if they just turn the kit into an individual class and give sorcerers the ability to dual (or be dualed to), that would finsh by making the insane overpower combination of kensai/dragon disciple, clearly a not fair class.
In my humble opinion, Dragon Disciple class should be either labeled as vanilla class and able to dual, what would be overpower, or removed in favor for another sorcerer kind of kit.
Edit:
Pact-Bound Adepts would surely work more for BG as Dragon Sorcerer than Dragon Disciples.
http://dndtools.eu/classes/pact-bound-adept/
Spell Scion class for sorcerer apparently is very nice also, and Taninted Sorceres could fit very well in the game.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm
Kensai/DD wouldn't be possible, since the game engine only allows one kit per character.
A lvl10 Sorcerer with 16 CON has 60 hp.
A lvl10 DD with 16+ CON has 80 hp.
After level 10 they get the same number of hp at every level-up.
@Awong124 I always solo the game when I play Sorcerer, same goes for DD. I can assure you that those (few) hp are not that usefull compared to 1 more Mirror Image and Stoneskin. Not to mention in BG2:EE, where having 1 more Sunfire, PfMW, ADHW, Time Stop/HLA makes an enormous difference.
- Fire Resistance
This is the real good bonus of the class. But wait, it just spares you 1/2 spell, potion, scroll. It's not something the Sorcerer can't already easily achieve.
- AC boost
I personally wouldn't want it. Why? Because while soloing I sometimes run out of spells, except lvl4 ones (no damage dealing spell at this level). So I find pretty useful to cast a Stonskin + Fireshields to damage the opponents that attack me.
- Fire Breath
Cool ability, but since it is just 1 use/day I often forget to have it. The damage is good but, as I can also see in BG2:EE, it doesn't bybass magic resistance. So, you know, a Sorcerer gets +1 Sunfire, Incendiary Cloud and Dragon Breath...
- CON boost
As you know, you don't get any hp bonus over 16. So the good point of having a CON boost may be: put some points in other abilities and
But again, it's not really needed.
As I said, I love the concept of the Dragon Disciple. I just don't see any reason for me to play it.
I would love it to be a more melee oriented sorceress who relies on defensive spells for armor and high fire resistance for dropping fireballs on herself to damage all around her together with some spell usage, but of course the DD should not be able to throw out as many spells as a full sorcerer.
I don't know too much about d&d but one thing that could be cool for the melee aspect of the kit would be if the DD got a bonus fire damage to melee attacks that scales with level, would make for a very interesting playthrough.
And a little bonus would be some extra dialogue with dragons
Extra:
For bg2ee it would be awesome if new class specific dialogue would be introduced!
DD : OHMYGOSH! IT'S YOU! THE RED DRAGON! I'M SUCH A BIG FAN! SIGN MY UNDERWEAR PLEASE!
Firkraag : ...wut?
The one we have in BG, since that in-game description is wrong, seems like there's no good reason not to take it with a sorcerer. It won't make you able to handle melee combat, but it also gives you a whole lot of benefits for practically no penalty. Why wouldn't you take it? I almost never use all 6 spells per day per level while playing a high level sorcerer, so I don't think I'd even notice if it went down to a max of 5. I don't think you'd even get to six level one spell slots during the entirety of BG1.
As for the roleplaying, I definitely think that a dragon disciple would not kill any of the dragons in BG2 and ToB unless it was clearly a matter of self-defense. That means no attacking Firkraag, and you have to help him screw that noble. I think the only dragons you have to kill in the whole game are the one in Suldanesselar, and Draconis and his son in ToB.
http://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/gaming_and_diversion/RPG/tsr11845 - Tome and Blood.pdf Of course, if you never solo the game or install SCS, Tactics, Ascension, etc. "True dragons are so remote both physically and mentally that draconic characters don't usually have a special opinion about them beyond what is typical for their society. Actually encountering a dragon for the first time can cause a stirring in the breast of a draconic character, one that she might not understand if she is unaware of her heritage. Such an awakening can lead to an obsession with learning more about dragons or traveling to places where they dwell."
Dungeons and Dragons - Races of the Dragon; Pages 56 - 66
Extra Stoneskin and extra Protection from Magic Weapons >>>>> -5 AC + 20 HP
Even the lowly mercenaries in TOB will terrorize you HARD regardless if you have these AC/HP bonuses or not. Not to mention the hordes of Demonic entities that will shred you to pieces when you don't have Stoneskin up. Remember, castings are disrupted when you take damage. Stoneskin is the only thing that safeguards between your unhindered casting and death. HP and AC bonus of Dragon Disciple will probably let you survive 1 more swing in late BG2 or TOB. But that's it... Stoneskin and PfMW will let you survive several rounds unscathed.
Extra Sunfire > Dragon Breath
Sunfire does more damage. Instantly casts with robe of vecna. Better AOE targetting. Does not freeze you in places right after casting.
Extra level 7, 8, 9 + HLA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 100% fire resistance.
Honestly, THIS IS A NO BRAINER. There is no freaking way 100% Fire resistance could outweight the versatility of these spells. Fire Resistance is so easily achieved with buffs. On the other hand, Level 9 spells and HLAs are the bread and butter skill that defines the sorcerer. We cast our HLAs from our level 9 slots. Taking a slot away not only means less level 9 spells, but also less HLAs too.
Yes, I need all the spell slots... I used every spell I had in order to Kill Demogorgon in Ascension.
I wouldn't have killed him with 1 less Abi Dalzim, 1 less comet and 1 less armor debuff.
The only reason I think I would play as one right now is for roleplaying and because a bhaalspawn with draconic heritage just sounds like a deadly and amazing combination.
Don't really understand why the devs wanted to put it in the game, why not some psionic class instead?