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Keep BGEE as vanilla as possible

sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
edited June 2012 in Archive (Feature Requests)
see i've been seeing all these things that people have been talking about, changes this changes that, if all this madness were to actually go through, it wouldnt even be baldur's gate anymore, i heard rumor over the inter webs that there will be a 2 option sorta thing, where option one, is just pure bg and option 2 is bg with new content, i think they should really stick with that, option one should be pure vanilla BG ( only fixing things that are broken; spelling errors/bugs/quest loop holes/ adding in the kits and the such) and then option 2 would be the add on section ( kind of like and expansion ) and what it should do is give you the options of what you want to add on and what you dont want to add on, for example there was that one bg fix or some such mod for bg 1 where there were like 30 things that it fixed and when you went to install it, you could actually choose from the list what you want in there and what you didnt, i think something like that would work best and would make everyone happy, for people who want pure vanilla, they get pure vanilla, for people who just want a couple of things changed then they can just add those couple of things, for the people who want the kit and ca-boodle they can select 'em all. It would be a huge shame where all this work goes into this BGEE and some of us play it for a bit, then go back to the old '98 version and be like, ah yup this is still better
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Comments

  • SeldarSeldar Member Posts: 438
    I agree with you but option 1 should use grahics enhancement too
  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    @sarevok57 [It would be a huge shame where all this work goes into this BGEE and some of us play it for a bit, then go back to the old '98 version and be like, ah yup this is still better]

    Haha enjoy 640x480 graphics on 20" (or more) widescreen without severe eye bleeding and whatnot.

    More seriously I partially agree with you that the experience shouldn't change too much, except that I just couldn't play BG1 anymore without BGT and mods like BG1 npc project that add a lot of depth to the game. Vanilla BG1 is quite boring IMO and even with graphic enhancements and bug fixing I wouldn't play BG:EE if it's not compatible with my favourite mods and would stick to my old copies.

    My point, if it holds any weight or is even a point, is that yes, the game should stay true to the original flavour and allow for customization through mods and advanced options. Because let's be honest this forum and the whole BG:EE project probably wouldn't exist without the mods that kept the game and community alive for so long (for a game that wasn't intended to be modded in the first place).

    Long post to say pretty much nothing but express my opinion on the matter : Pure vanilla BG is lame and outdated, most feature requests should be optionnal , compatibility and support for existing mods should be fully implemented
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I think that's the basic idea. Any new stuff will probably be optional.
  • ZakerosZakeros Member Posts: 75
    Well I agree BG should stay BG, but remember - more feature requests, more possible improvements. I know that even mine requests are too... forwarded, but still, I like to throw here every idea I can get, because that's the point of it - sharing your thoughts, seeing if people agree etc. And it's not like they're gonna implement all of them without thinking it through - they may use only one simple detail of specific idea, and we may not even notice it. They know what they're doing, so, don't hesitate to put as many requests as you can think of.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,526
    This is the second time I agree with @Kore in less than 20 minutes. Something wierd is going on today. ;D
  • KoreKore Member Posts: 245
    @andreacolombo, it's ok. You were able to disagree with me on the "how true to D&D should BG be?" thread :)
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,526
    @Kore :-)
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    edited June 2012
    Keep in mind that the devs have pretty much had to start from scratch by creating their own style of Tutu (since they couldn't exactly swipe the codework), so there would have to be fundamental changes in applying the ToB engine to BG1, and it puts more of the basic BG1 game system in question than might otherwise have happened. So there's no way to make a BGEE like a carbon copy BG1- not even as an option- and there's every reason not to, both to save the time it would take to script such a switch option into the game and to simply have confidence in the improvements made. Frankly I'd rather they not make the new areas and NPCs optional. After all, you don't have to do Durlag's either.

    The difficulty is just in that invisible line of reasonability that @Kore is talking about, and despite how much variety there is in what BG fans consider reasonable, there likely is a delineable line for what's clearly canon and shouldn't change. Canon stuff is what the devs really ought to just leave well enough alone in order to focus on the bigger BG game issues, mechanics, and new content (either in old areas and taverns or new areas). They should avoid the appearance of simply meddling with a new "flavor," particularly since a new game feel is inevitable anyway with the scope of the project, and thus they should instead focus on both "getting right" what BG1 didn't get right and adding in complementary quality content to what BG1 did get right. That said BG1 "got right" such things as Marl speaking lines from "Taxi Driver" or Imoen saying such academic phrases as "Mutt-mongering riffraff!"- i.e., a very healthy dose of good and sometimes wild humor- so canon isn't exactly a stodgy and exacting feel to emulate. Like Trent Oster said, "Don't break the fun." The not-quite-so-fun, the damn-is-this-annoying, and the damn-is-this-ridiculous are another matter. :-P
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,526
    I mostly agree with @Demivrgvs.

    Developers have a huge advantage over modders: access to the source code. Since the source code will likely never be handed over to modders, and developers are not going to work on BG:EE indefinitely after its release, this might our last chance to get the IE work the way it should. There are engine fixes, bug fixes, and soft-coding work that can only be done with access to the source code; and graphical enhancements that are out of modders' reach. Developers should focus on these things first, and only do other things if time allows. If it doesn't, modders can take care of them.
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    @AndreaColombo

    I'd even rate 'Improved modibility' (is that a word?) over many other features. As you said, the developers have to stop working at some point. I'd rather they leave a good, easily accessible platform for modding (next to a polished game of course) than tons of extra items, quests, NPC's but with the engine shut down to prevent further expansion.
    Modders have done wonders for the playability and longevity of the BG games, more support for them should be something that's only encouraged, methinks.
  • KoreKore Member Posts: 245
    @Demivrgvs

    I agree, this is very important. Regardless of the features that the devs can put into BGEE modders will always be able to create more.
  • SpartacusSpartacus Member Posts: 23
    I disagree that BGEE would be best with only minimal changes. What is the point of BGEE if there are not new exciting things to play with? I'm happy for Trent&Co to include a "revert to vanilla" option, but I don't really see the point as long as EE retains its BGitude. In the worst case scenario there is always pure vanilla to go back to and I'm sure that someone will create a mod that makes BGEE into merely an updated vanilla game.
    I agree quite a bit with @Kore, for those desiring the "Vanilla" BG, they always have the actual game and a wealth of mods to go with it. For those that want something new and fresh, BG:EE is the perfect thing. I am quite impressed with Trent's Twitter feed, and his commitment to "Not break the fun." I admit, there are a lot of features that I would LOVE to see implemented in BG:EE, but even if they don't make it in, simply being able to play the game on my 21.5" widescreen monitor with a built in Zoom button... Excites me to no end.
    but don't "waste" your time on things we can easily do or have already done (though too many people here seem to ignore modding sites such as SHS or G3 because half or more of the things they are asking have already been done by one mod or the other).
    I don't necessarily disagree with this point, but at the same time, I would love to be able to truly enjoy the BG:EE experience without installing mods. I agree with your prioritization list, but I would be overjoyed to see as much content go in as possible - and I would love to see what some of the original BG devs can come up with to enhance their own game :)

  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    My priority list for changes from most to least important is as follows:
    1. bug fixes
    2. balance/consistency changes
    3. enemy ai enhancements (ability to open doors, smarter enemies, etc.)
    4. convenience tweaks (higher ammo stacks, etc.)
    5. improved ability to mod
    6. graphics improvements
    7. new content, items, etc.
    Exactly this.
    Make the game play smooth as lubricated butter, reinvigorate the combat AI, then open the way for modders to go nutty with NPC's, items, custom races, quests, alternate endings, cutscenes in which Boo absorbs Bhaal's power (Bhool, God of Murder!), etc.

  • KoreKore Member Posts: 245
    @jaysl659

    What do you mean by balance/consistency changes?

    I think I agree with you except I would swap 4 and 5 and also 6 and 7. I would rather that the game was given higher potential due to modability than convenience changes. I doubt these are mutually exclusive though, so it's a bit of a moot point. Graphics don't really interest me though. I'm perfectly happy with how BG is atm, so I'm ambivalent towards it. I'd much rather that there was exciting new content to play with
  • trinittrinit Member Posts: 705
    well, i think feature requests that would drastically change bg are quite rare.

    i got the feeling that most requests revolve around various tweaks ( added kits, subraces, fixed inconsistencies and illogical things (like reputation system)) or cosmetic and graphic enhancements.

    in the end, as i write this, there are 198 feature requests. will developers include them all? of course not. some requests require game to be written anew, some are practically a bugfixes already included in basic engine (tob). developers have no time or resources to take everything into account.
    another thing, they have limited ability (if at all) to change existing content, and although that does not include gameplay, it still limits some of the requests further, even without their "Don't break the fun" policy.

    i think there IS room for improvement and BIG improvement, just like (in my personal opinion) quality jumped tenfold from bg to bg2 engine.
    it would be a shame to get in the end the same bg1 with a different UI that you can get with bgtutu and the widescreen mod. i think tweaks that already proved to be upgrade in various mods, and problems that are already acknowledged should not be ignored.

    therefore, i support "vanilla bg" slider at least. :)
  • ElectricMonkElectricMonk Member Posts: 599
    edited June 2012
    @Kore

    By balance/consistency changes I'm referring to things such as certain requests to bring components of the game nearer to their PnP counterparts (in the cases where it makes sense anyway) as well as restoring the BG1 weapon specialization table, etc. Then again, I might prioritize this a bit lower, as they can all be done with mods, and I know that my preferences for these things aren't necessarily in sync with others.
    Post edited by ElectricMonk on
  • KoreKore Member Posts: 245
    @Kore

    By balance/consistency changes I'm referring to things such as certain requests to bring components of the game nearer to their PnP counterparts (in the cases where it makes sense anyway) as well as restoring the BG1 weapon specialization table, etc. Then again, I might prioritize this a bit lower, as they can all be done with mods, and I know that my preferences for these things aren't necessarily in sync with others. Will edit my post to reflect this.
    Oh ok then. In that case I'd list it at a par with graphical changes, I am fairly ambivalent to it myself :)
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    when i was talking about fixing things that are broken; spelling errors/bugs/quest loop holes/ adding in the kits and the such that also meant improved graphics and what not, hence the term " and the such" the one thing im fearing is that they get a little out of control add a swack of new stuff and really take away from what bg is, like if this EE lets us grow to level 11 or 12 and things and puts in +3 items up the ying yang and all that it just wont feel like the same game, and then how would bg II turn out? they would have to completely remake the whole game making it balanced for a party starting off at level 11 or 12, so thats going to cause some huge problems for bg II because now they are going to have to completely rebalance the whole game, and i remember seeing something about how they didnt want to make it so you could have a team of greater than 6 so then they wouldnt have to rebalance the game and look at the mess its going to cause bg II EE, i say make two versions, one with just improved stuff and as vanilla as possible, and then have a 2nd option in the main menu called "add on" or some such where you can have all your new fancy quests, extra XP, extra items and all that good stuff
  • GrungeChlapecGrungeChlapec Member Posts: 12
    I only hope that the game will be as attractive as her older predecessors in a coat of 1998. For example, when I saw Fallout 3, I was very disappointed. It was no longer Fallout and my second favorite game after BG series, but Oblivion. Just as there has already been said, I hope that people who develop the game love it as much as I do and when I am just readind these pages, my heart is singing with a joy and hope :)
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    @GrungeChlapec i competely agree, and what happened with fallout 3, i hope thats not what happens to bg
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    I don't think Baldur's Gate will will suddenly turn into a 6 person squad shooter wil minimal RPG elements, or have the ending changed to having to sacrifice yourself to Bhaal, even though there's other ways to destroy his essence but the game won't allow you to do them, causing you to yell obsceneties at the mut- I mean monstrous partymember who apparently doesn't give a hoot if you die.

    *cough*

    I liked Fallout 3 though. In parts.
  • CorianderCoriander Member Posts: 1,667
    So cover-based parkour would not be a good enhancement? Damn.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    hahahahahhahahahaha @Coriander ah nicely said
  • LuneverLunever Member Posts: 307
    I agree that aside from a a couple of eastereggs the story and characters and maps and dialogues (except for dialogue bugs) shouldn't be changed.
    What should be changed is improving the interface - removing previously unremedied bugs and inconveniences and using some stuff and effects and class options from IWD I+II and ToEE.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    edited June 2012
    There's no sense in make a enhanced edition if the same mistakes that where before on the game get no fix. People change, games change and even the D&D lore change (we're near the 5° edition now). I say, keep the spirit of the game and change the mistakes.

    "Keep vanilla? No, i'm tired of evil be a punishment and good a reward, tired of stick with crap thieves in BG2, tired of stupid quest endings as the fallen palladin quest (bridge district in BG2). Is human to do mistakes, but stupid repeat them.

    But i agree that some suggestions in my opinion (climb walls, dark elf main char...) are totally unecessary and put in danger the prupose of the enhanced edition.
  • SenashSenash Member Posts: 405
    What none said before and what I was thinking about, is that sometimes, the minor things can change a lot as well. Easier or a bit different UI for example. I know it was tiresome to pick up all the loot, give the ones that needed identifying to your mage/bard. But sometimes I still look back at looting a horde of goblins or mercenaries I just killed, with a sort of nostalgic pleasure :)
    That said, I would not like them making the game itself and the game UI too "user friendly". It took time to figure out some stuff, or work things out, but it was fun and it gives BG a certain "flavour".
    So generally, I support the "keep it vanila" idea.

    About the things-to-do priority:
    I'm not sure I could draw up a proper list, but for me graphics imrovement is definetly important (as 640*480 really doesnt feel good even on 17" laptop). And while with the other perts of the list drawn up before I quite agree (bugs and balance absolutely takes priority), I would still say, that at least a small amount of new content is definetly important. Just don't overdo that either. The +1 NPC already announced and a couple of quests with a few items is absolutely enough (if they fit well into the whole game ofc)
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