What is the difference between Intelligence & Wisdom from an RP perspective?
SharGuidesMyHand
Member Posts: 2,580
Since the release of BG:EE, I've gradually been shifting my playing style from a PGer to a RPer. Recently I've decided to try the kind of character creation described in this thread here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/19858/refreshing-new-pure-roleplaying-style-for-baldur-s-gate/p1 . Instead of simply maxing the most efficient stats, I've been basing my stats on how I imagine the character's personality and background.
I've been trying to figure out how I want to distribute points among wisdom and intelligence (among characters who don't rely on either stat), but I'm not entirely sure what each means outside of their functional uses.
In a nutshell, how would you describe an individual with low wisdom but high intelligence, and vice versa?
I've been trying to figure out how I want to distribute points among wisdom and intelligence (among characters who don't rely on either stat), but I'm not entirely sure what each means outside of their functional uses.
In a nutshell, how would you describe an individual with low wisdom but high intelligence, and vice versa?
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Comments
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/17887/create-a-random-game-optional-no-reload-speed-game-contest-included-spoilers/p18
In short, I think of Wisdom more as knowledge and common sense, and Intelligence as the potential to learn new things and a natural wit and mental flexibility.
In roleplaying terms, an intelligent character should be able to quickly come up with ingenious solutions to problems, think outside the box and defeat enemies with superior tactics.
A Wise individual should have knowledge and understanding of the world around him. He is familiar with the deities worshipped by the peoples he comes across, and the nature of those deities, he knows which creatures are dangerous, which antidotes cures which poisons etc...
The trouble with roleplaying, especially as a noobie like me with limited information, is that what my characters can do is limited by my own abilities. Like the Genie in the Circus asked Charname a maths question. With Intelligence 19, it should be easy for him, but since I refused to cheat, I couldn't solve it myself. I also don't know enough about the D&D world to reflect the Wisdom of 15 that Charname is supposed to have. (The first time I met a Clay Golem was funny...)
It was worth reading that page just for this exchange:
Humans typically have both to some degree, but I think a human with high INT but mediocre or lower WIS would be like walking encyclopedias knowing lots and lots of fact, but have a very mechanical way of thinking. Repetitive, not very creative or original, but only need to see something done once to be able to repeat it again and again as mages do, and such good memory and recall that they'll simply know the solutions to most things. A person with high WIS but low INT I think would have occasional flashes of terrific insight into things, but nothing ever sticks in their mind. Person with high both... well, that would be a genius.
For the genie thing, if BG had stat requirements like torment does, the results choices would've been modified based on your intelligence, with each response providing clearer explanation for the result, and which one was correct, while a low intelligence character might not even get the correct answer as a choice.
Intelligence is mostly about facts, learning new things quickly, and logic, while wisdom is more about instincts, memory, and learning over long terms.
While wisdom is more complex. Its more about knowing how things really work, how people really act. It would give the ability to see the outcome and implications of a decision.
A high intelligence might let you see options, plans and schemes. A high wisdom helps you see the long term outcomes of those options, plans and schemes.
Intelligence modifies Knowledge, Craft, Decipher Script, and Disable Device. It's more about practical knowledge and specialty skills.
In a very simplified sense, a high Intelligence represents "book smarts", and a high Wisdom represents "street smarts". In other words, your Intelligence affects things you can train to be better at, and Wisdom affects things that are innate to who you are and can't be trained.
The Intelligence score also reflects your capacity to learn. In 3E, your skill points per level are affected by your Int score (Class base + Int modifier per level). In previous versions, high-Int characters could know more languages ("Woot! My PC speaks pixie!" ;-) ) and high-Int mages had a better chance of learning a new spell from a scroll.
One of examples of Wisdom vs. Intelligence that stuck with me was an archetypical mad scientist. High intelligence but low wisdom means he's a genius, but he also never remembers where he put his notes and is prone to rambling and getting off topic. And, of course, not considering the possible consequences of his research. Then it gets easily stolen because he forgot to lock the windows and we have to save the world again.
Wisdom and intelligence (as they are used irl) are overlapping cluster concepts. They refer to numerous cognitive abilities that are not well understood nor coherently differentiated. The game reifies them and we cant help but go for the ride. We're only human.
Edit:%$&#@ touch screen
We often think of teenagers as "fools" in the sense that they still don't have adequate awareness of what is dangerous and risky to their own well-being. We, as "wise" teachers and parents, try to protect them from very severe consequences that would accrue to them if they were allowed to follow their impulses. There's a good reason we don't let people legally drive a vehicle until age 16, vote until 18, or drink alcohol until 21 (in the U.S.). And why many "wise" parents monitor their teens' activities very closely, and enforce very strict restrictions on them.
So, in my definition, a synonym for "wisdom" would be "judgment". "Common sense" is another. Your wisdom is your ability to make sound decisions and value judgments. The wise person stays safe from physical danger, and tends to have great success in his or her relationships, because of having keen insight into consistencies in human behavior. The wise person tends to do well financially, because of having a penetrating understanding of money and personal finance.
I have met many adults who seemed to have "very low wisdom scores". What I observe about them is that "they never learn." They repeat the same mistakes again and again, throughout their lives. Some of them have multiple drunk driving arrests. Some of them are in and out of drug rehab. Some of them stay broke and in deep debt, despite making huge salaries in their jobs. (They couldn't hang on to money if you super-glued it to the palm of their hands.) Some of them stay alienated in their human relationships, going from one marriage or relationship to the next, and leaving a wake of emotional devastation behind them.
So, one important component of wisdom is the ability to learn from mistakes.
Humorously, one could question whether a person with high wisdom in the D&D world would become an adventurer in the first place. It's a wonder most of these adventuring groups can get a cleric to go with them. I think the person would have to believe in the cause very strongly, or have a really bad need for money to help out a loved one.
I think that intelligence is your ability to solve problems, memorize new information, and manipulate abstract symbols and concepts. It also applies to your speed in doing those things. A person with a 10 intelligence can learn calculus or memorize the periodic table, but it might take them hours or even days of hard struggle to do it, while a person with 18 intelligence might memorize the same amount of information in less than an hour. Intelligence might also factor into your level of motivation to deal with complexity and abstraction.
* Intelligence is the capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.
* Wisdom is the accumulated knowledge that gives the ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; gives the common sense; gives insight.
Read more: http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-intelligence-and-wisdom/#ixzz2bmZkVDq5
As for me I believe intelligence is basically how well you can execute things stated as "apply knowledge" while Wisdom is basically the reasoning before applying knowledge, I would tend to believe that high wisdom will make your reasoning and decision making more accurate, closer to "reality". I think you can be very intelligent in making stupid decision, wisdom is like this power that gives you control over intelligence. It is stated that Wisdom can't be learnt, in the "third edition rules", maybe it is true in D&D, but in real life it is wrong, obviously the quality of your decision making will not depend of your intelligence but of your wisdom, which is learnt through experiences.
Intelligence is knowledge, the ability to accrue more knowledge, and the ability to keep all those facts straight when it counts (Intelligence/knowledge dice rolls). An intelligent person knows things or has more specialized knowledge than other people.
What is missing here, if we are moving into the real world and in addition to what I've already said (though vaguely) is social context. Teachers can literally create genius and stupidity,often without realizing,with their expectations (called the Pygmalion effect and golem effect respectively). Even when less explicit, social expectation can exert immense pressure that can dramatically affect performance and motivation (cf stereotype threat). Our own (learned) expectations play a huge role as well. For example, if we believe that intelligence is fixed by biology, we will tend to avoid difficult tasks in the fear that it will confirm our inferiority (see just about anything by carol dweck) Initial advantage and disadvantage accumulate (Mathew effect) and shape us in ways we never fully realize or accept.
It's probably good we don't accept it though. That would probably engender a fixed mindset.
(That's dweck again)
High wisdom characters generally have a more balanced, mature outlook on life, and are tough nuts to crack psychologicaly, while low wisdom ones are rather prone to mistakes and rash behaviour and break down. As their psychological health is more fragile and they can snap more easily than high wisdom characters.
High wisdom characters can act calm when facing chaos and dangerous situations and can take some serious psychological abuse before snapping. In a panic situation a low wisdom character can freeze, and panic, and break down:it won't help if he has 18 intelligence, he just can't put it to good use. Whereas an 10 int character with high wisdom can stay calm and do the more sensible thing in such situation. A high wisdom character can focus better, while a low wisdom character is more scatter-brained. In a calm environment when both characters enter a routine written or oral test of a subject they've studied, high int character will score better, ofcourse. (Unless he has exceptionally low wisdom, and goes like 'waaa a test oh boy oh boy oh boy this is exciting, weee oooo I panick!')
Take Marl as an example, he has suffered a very traumatic experience (death of his son) and is on the verge of a mental breakdown, even attacking a party of armed adventurers just because. This speaks of low wisdom, it is very reckless and unbalanced behaviour. And lo, he has very low wisdom by design! (Wisdom:5!!!)
Take Aerie (wis:16) as the other end, she has suffered much abuse and pain. Sure she whines a lot but only to the charname she trusts and shows romantic interest. Another person might have snapped and either acted suicidal or hateful, and Aerie is none of that, she still wishes to help others and thinks others before herself, she is still highly idealistic and good natured, despite she had seen the very worst humanity could offer. The pains she has endured sure left a mark on her but she did not go over the edge can still function as a very capable and trustworthy companion.
I'm still in my first playthrough of BG 2, and as I learnt about Aerie's background, I genuinely felt sorry for her. If you really try to roleplay your game through your character's eyes, you can really appreciate how certain characters behave in certain ways. Sure her whining phase was a bit annoying, but then Charname just remembers what she's been through, and he just wants to wrap her up in cotton wool and keep her safe forevermore. Which actually kinda makes me wonder why he'd bring her along on such dangerous missions lol I wish you could leave Aerie in the Circus without breaking off the relationship, to keep her out of the most dangerous battles.
Oh yeah... I forgot to say. I think her 16 in Wisdom is partly just the game devs attempt to make her reasonably competent as a Cleric. Her behavior does not strike me as somebody who can be considered 'wise', certainly not 'Wisdom 16 wise'.
Now put Aerie in a similiar position, say, you find some of the slavers who kidnapped Aerie and cut her wings off. You can try to goad her into killing them 'they are the ones who caused you much pain, we should kill them now!' , I highly doubt she will fall for it. She will act to punish them, maybe sent to the prison and authorities, to prevent them from causing harm to others, but she will NEVER act on a rash, reckless and agressive behaviour of vengeance. Since she is lawful good she knows that will be wrong and she can resist the temptation and can even forgive them if they are truly sorry and have seen the error of their ways. That's why I think she deserves her 16 wisdom score.
Viconia also has very high wisdom, and look at all the horrors/abuse she has endured, in all the backstories she tells, sure she is evil and can act maliciously but that's her natural upbringing, that's what she has been taught. Still, she can be redeemed into neutrality and can see some of the error of her own ways, that requires some immense willpower and sipiritual awareness. She has a very powerful and resilient mind, but still open to new borders and self-discovery. In contrast, while Edwin is brilliant intelligently, he can't grow much as a character, due to his lowish wisdom, he will always be haughty, self-centered, egomaniac and eccentric. But that's the way we love him :-)
With higher wisdom, you follow the left path.
With higher intelligence, you follow the right path.
Wisdom is all common sense and judgement and spiritual enlightenment.
See, this is why I prefer systems with three stats.
"The systematic representation of the faculty for thinking is tripartite":
*Sensibility is "The capacity for receiving representations (receptivity) through the mode in which we are affected by objects.." with the contribution of the pure forms of intuition: space and time.
*The Intellect is seen as the faculty "of a priori cognition through concepts", "the faculty for the cognition of the general(of rules), the understanding."
This is called the constitutive("antecedently to experience, and render it possible") use of pure concepts(categories of pure intellect) over intuitions, raw data - "By means of sensibility, therefore, objects are given to us, and it alone furnishes us with intuitions; by the understanding they are thought.."
and third,
*Reason - the faculty of Ideas(the original causes of things), "the faculty for the determination of the particular through the general(for the derivation from principles.)
This use of Pure Reason is called regulative, giving "direction"(by means of Ideals of reason) - "For only through this Idea are all judgements as to moral merit or demerit possible.."
"I understand by Idea a necessary conception of reason, to which no corresponding object can be discovered in the world of sense; they are(Ideas) transcendent, and overstep the limits of all experiences, in which, consequently, no object can ever be presented.."
What's so important about Ideas?, they "serve as the model for the determinations of our will". The names of some Ideas are all too familiar: Good, Wisdom, God, Soul, Freedom, Imortality etc.
If so, Intelligence, would be, the capacity of understanding, belonging to the pure thoeretical reason, "dedicated to the sources of all cognition a priori", bringing in about the laws of nature, studied by natural(empirical) sciences.
Wisdom may be seen as the capacity of volition and pure practical reason, "yielding a priori laws of freedom" seen as such by the Metaphysics of Morals.
In the largest sense, Wisdom is just an Ideal, never to be seen or touched.
Bibliography:
Immanuel Kant:
Critique of Pure Reason
Critique of Practical Reason
Critique of the Power of Judgment
Wisdom is if he tried to have a friendly chat with the group of bandits, would he try again with the next group
BY
Absolutely beautiful! But I don't see how this can work for d&d (though, this gives a good reason why a d&d like world is impossible). How could one, for example, have such a firm grasp of the categorical imperative (high wisdom) and fail to be moved by it (be evil)?
Edit: they would understand freedom yet will to slavery!