Nerf Negative Plane protection
ZanathKariashi
Member Posts: 2,869
Remove passive Negative plane protection from all items or class abilities that grant it, and nerf the spell to only block a single attack (similar to stoneskin, but only loses it's charge when it blocks a level drain attack)
Level drain is supposed to be one of the most dangerous effects in the game, but due to the plethora of means to render it powerless, it's little more then an annoyance, and only when it happens to affect a spell-caster.
(Nerfing Protection from Undead (from the scrolls) to be removed on any hostile action (akin to Sanctuary) would also be a very nice and long overdue change)
While I also wouldn't mind seeing restoration nerfed in someway to better represent the gravity of the situation (permanently reducing the target's Con by 1 every time they're restored, or at least have them make a system-shock roll (based on Con) to avoid the Con loss on every restoration, to try and represent the loss of life-span from the targets life the spell is supposed to have (Remove greater restoration from the game entirely)).
I might agree to having passive NPP replaced by a 1/day use of the Nerfed version of the spell, but flatout passive immunity is just too powerful.
(I've already modded my own game by simply removing passive negative plane protection from everything, though I lack the knowledge to change the NPP and Restoration the way I would prefer (though I do SK a characters Con lower by 1 though every time they get a restoration spell cast on them) and beaten the game several times through with a variety of classes, so it does not in any way make the game impossible (Solo though is MUCH harder...as it should be), though it does make some fights actually threatening, rather then just "Oh look vampires..better move the caster's back", it's more like "Vampires! #%@^!!!!"...and that's just how it should be)
(Blackguards and Undead Huners are already OVER-compensated, and wouldn't in the slightest suffer from the lack of Immunity to level drain)
I could go into why, but that would be a HUGE post. Suffice to say, it's not needed and they're still MUCH better off then they should be even without it.
Level drain is supposed to be one of the most dangerous effects in the game, but due to the plethora of means to render it powerless, it's little more then an annoyance, and only when it happens to affect a spell-caster.
(Nerfing Protection from Undead (from the scrolls) to be removed on any hostile action (akin to Sanctuary) would also be a very nice and long overdue change)
While I also wouldn't mind seeing restoration nerfed in someway to better represent the gravity of the situation (permanently reducing the target's Con by 1 every time they're restored, or at least have them make a system-shock roll (based on Con) to avoid the Con loss on every restoration, to try and represent the loss of life-span from the targets life the spell is supposed to have (Remove greater restoration from the game entirely)).
I might agree to having passive NPP replaced by a 1/day use of the Nerfed version of the spell, but flatout passive immunity is just too powerful.
(I've already modded my own game by simply removing passive negative plane protection from everything, though I lack the knowledge to change the NPP and Restoration the way I would prefer (though I do SK a characters Con lower by 1 though every time they get a restoration spell cast on them) and beaten the game several times through with a variety of classes, so it does not in any way make the game impossible (Solo though is MUCH harder...as it should be), though it does make some fights actually threatening, rather then just "Oh look vampires..better move the caster's back", it's more like "Vampires! #%@^!!!!"...and that's just how it should be)
(Blackguards and Undead Huners are already OVER-compensated, and wouldn't in the slightest suffer from the lack of Immunity to level drain)
I could go into why, but that would be a HUGE post. Suffice to say, it's not needed and they're still MUCH better off then they should be even without it.
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Comments
However, characters unwilling to sacrifice anything of themselves for their recovery could likely just use them silly priests of Ilmater; why suffer when you can have a bunch of willing Ilmaterans suffer for you?
That said, I'm sure you could make these changes into a mod.
So, given that there's so much level drain in the game, the players need a reasonable way to protect themselves from it.
Yes the vampire fights are tougher (unless you have 18+ level cleric who chunks them all instantly with turning or a MoD wielding warrior who 1-shots them before they can hit you), though on the other hand, it also rewards players who've learned to properly use the magic system and develop good adventuring practices, such as scouting ahead and effectively using traps.
And IMO, is better then the current implementation where just having 1 item or class with immunity to level drain instantly renders the vampire lair missions a boring, non-threatening waste of time you're forced to go through because it's plot required because without level-drain, vampires are literally harmless (aside from Bodhi (Hardcore melee powerhouse) and Tanova (higher level mage...who doesn't even attempt melee until she's out of spells)).
You only run into potentially hostile Vampires in the street twice...and both times they're optional as to whether you fight them or not (and I've always easily beaten them regardless, since their requirement for +2 weapons is actually MUCH more annoying early on then level drain is, since if you're a noob, you likely won't know where some quick access to level 2 weapons are. Where as in the early game, unless you're an UD Hunter, you probably won't even have passive immunity to level drain making it largely moot, especially if you rest a lot since that speeds up the rate you get the nightly encounters.
My first time through BG SOA (before ToB came out), the amulet of power was the only immunity to level drain item I had (and I completely missed the MoD) (and didn't even know about NPP the spell, so it didn't get used at all), and it was on a character who never even came close to the action, so in effect, I already did this way back when.
EDIT: Seriously, despite being a longstanding internet geek - yeah I remember the IE/Netscape browser wars, I was always a Netscape girl, I even wrote a paper on them - Still consider myself a gamer N00b, and no matter how old this game is I never, ever got cheesing, cheesing is for those of you who know how this stuff works to start with, I'm going to stand here and be the one who says "What the heck? I don't know what you mean? If I even knew who to cheese this I wouldn't know where to start."
It should work like a Sanctuary but against undead.
I'm going to disagree with negative plane protection though. I can tolerate it being something more like a stoneskin but not something that gets dispelled after one shot.
The restoration part though I'm firmly in disagreement with. Losing one constitution for each cast on someone. You will get level drained A LOT in this game even with the protections. I don't need most of my party having 3 constitution.
Unless you screw up VERY badly, you should only have to restore a character MAYBE 4 times in the whole series, and if you cycle the characters around you could spread out the Con-loss, and there's 2 effective points of Con you can gain through play (4 total if evil) that can negate that loss mostly, or completely.
The only reason it seems like a major nerf is because you've gotten complacent with how things are. Even in the 2 vampire lair missions, it's just not a big deal. Hell, the only enemy in the game that legitimately warrants concern is the friggin' shadow dragon of all things, because it's level-drain breath hits a large area, but would be easily kill-able using the nerfed NPP as your only source of immunity.
As others have pointed out. As it is, BG is not a particularly easy or even beginner friendly game. Your own experience is heavily distorted by the fact that you are a D&D veteran and a BG veteran. I am all for interesting challenges and 'realism' (I guess Level-drain has something to do with draining life force in D&D lore), but the game needs to be playable for a beginner without reading a walkthrough or a massive manual, or requiring experience in D&D PnP. Otherwise you never give a beginner the time to get immersed.
If I were to comment on the state of the vanilla game difficulty, and what I'd like to change, it's that the difficulty seems very 'spiky' for a beginner. There are some things which are just very tricky if you don't have metagame knowledge. For example like knowing to buy Shield of Balduran vs Beholders and how to kill a Clay Golem. I don't mind having to learn things like immunities and spells as I go along, but it would be helpful if the game offered some hints along the way. Like maybe one of the NPCs could have said, 'Oh no! That's a Clay Golem, we're gonna need a magical blunt weapon to hurt it!' the first time I came across one. The changes you are proposing will make Vampires another one of those 'difficulty spikes' that can be frustrating for a noobie. Remember also that the game cannot just be for powergamers with optimised stats. I don't want to be compelled to roll 18/18/18 for every character just to stand a chance of getting to the end relatively intact.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for the game to be nerfed to the extent any child can romp through mindlessly. In fact I don't mind if the 'general difficulty' was increased a little, I just don't like 'spikey difficulty'. All it achieves is create extra hoops that beginners will need to learn to jump through, whereas veterans will hardly notice the difference precisely cos they already know what to do.
For example whilst I disagree with ur proposal for Level Drain, I'd actually quite like to see companion deaths having more of a consequence than it does currently. Because 'raising the dead' is so easy in BG, it totally devalues the impact of death, unless it is permanent. I feel there needs to be a middle ground between 'oh damn I lost a bit of gold' death and 'shit Aerie is gone forever, I need to reload' death. The obvious solution to me is that whenever somebody is raised from the dead, there is a chance (say 50%) of permanent loss of 1 random physical ability point. That way death will have serious consequences, but won't force a reload each time.
No more frustrating then Beholders are in general. The shield of balduran for a long time was a pre-order exclusive, until they finally added it to the core game in a patch after ToB, or people realized you just need to get your hands on the over-ride files that added the specialty merchants (it was more of a concern back when BG2 came out, cause the internet was still really young). (Joluv was a collectors edition exclusive for instance). You still had options, the cloak of mirroring could reflect rays, but was really easy to miss, even if you did go to the Saguhin city, rather then taking the portal. Which left you with spell turning, which beholders could remove just by using their Main eye (strips all magical buffs instantly and gives a 100% spell failure penalty for 10 rounds).
The only reason it seems overpowered is because you're used to the nerfed version. Had you never experienced the nerfed version of level drain, it would be no big deal, and you would adapt just like you did to the nerf'd version. My first playthrough I only had a single item to prevent level drain, and it was on a character who never got level drained to begin with. The fact vampires in general need +2 weapons to hit was the real thing that ever gave me trouble as a noob. Even the change to restoration wouldn't be that big of a deal honestly. Though they do need to add lesser restoration, which only clears stat damage, rather then level drain and stat damage, but doesn't have a real penalty. It just fatigues the target for 24 hours instead of knocking several years off your lifespan like restoration does.