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Which class makes the most "sense"?

One of the minor additions to the EE-version I've come to really appreciate are the added class-oriented bits to your PC's background: the little stories that explain how your PC came to be the class s/he is.

My pet peeve when playing RPG games is that I always create a character based on what makes the most "sense" from a storytelling perspective. In this case, after having done a previous complete BG1-TOB run, I try to account two things in my character creation: Nature (what makes sense given your "genetics") and Nurture (what makes sense given your upbringing: both in terms of location and parenting)

It would be fun to hear what different people think about this issue. I'll try to go through every class and give my reasoning for why I think a certain class makes more or less sense in the context of the background provided in the game (my discussions will not include the issue of race).

Of course I realize you can always make sense of anything by using your IMAGINATION (TM), but I'm going to try and discuss this from a point of view which supposes that we go after the information/context given to us by the game.

I'll begin with the Fighter class:

Fighter:
Probably the safest choice in DnD history. There is both a precedent for nature and nurture in this class. Nature, well, duh. You ARE the child of Murder, after all, and it makes sense that a Child of Bhaal should have a gift for fighting and lean towards martial pursuits. As for nurture, the Watchers stand as a sufficient explanation for where your training originated from. The in-game origin also mentions you being inspired by Gorion’s tales of heroes and such, so it also makes sense from the point of moral upbringing that you would look up to the noble heroes of past and want to emulate them (or alternatively as an “evil” character, be inspired by tales of conquest)

Sub-classes:

Berzerker:
Out of all the fighter kits, I think this one makes the most sense as it really stresses your nature as a Child of Bhaal: you have a natural inclination for fighting and for murder, which in this case is expressed through fits of (murderous) rage/bloodlust that enhance your fighting. You also get storytelling points as a good-aligned character who’s internal struggle (as becomes focal in BG2) is expressed physically/externally through your fight to remain in control in a fight (think Wolverine from the X-Men). Most importantly, I also think this is a kit that could naturally be self-taught.

Wizard Slayer:
This one makes the least sense for me. Let’s first ignore the fact that wizard slayers are “formally” trained by *sects* (I guess one could posit that you could’ve found some dusty old manual deep within the library). The question that later presents itself is “why”? As an evil character, sure, I could see you grow up with some sort of disdain towards the mages you who surround you, for whatever reasons. But why would a good-aligned character want to essentially specialize in fighting (killing) those that raised you?

Kensai:
This one makes sense, but I find it to be pretty boring and not as thematically as strong as berzerker. While initially one might think that this kit specifically presupposes some kind of formal training from another kensai master, your nature as a Child of Bhaal is IMO a sufficient enough to explain any mastery of a specific weapon.

What do you think? I'll cover the other classes along the line.
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Comments

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Unkitted Fighter, Priest, Mage (including specialists) and Thief all make a good straightforward amount of sense from a background perspective, as do any multiclass combination of the above.

    You could well have picked up training from the Watchers as a fighter, from the Clerics of Oghma as a cleric and from Gorion himself as a mage. And your childhood friend is Imoen, so you'd likely end up sneaking around and getting into thief-type mischief too.

    I'd say Druid or Ranger are probably the most difficult to justify, as you've spent much of your life cooped up within Candlekeep's walls rather than out in the wilds.
  • Ammar_87Ammar_87 Member Posts: 21
    Corvino said:

    Unkitted Fighter, Priest, Mage (including specialists) and Thief all make a good straightforward amount of sense from a background perspective, as do any multiclass combination of the above.

    You could well have picked up training from the Watchers as a fighter, from the Clerics of Oghma as a cleric and from Gorion himself as a mage. And your childhood friend is Imoen, so you'd likely end up sneaking around and getting into thief-type mischief too.

    I'd say Druid or Ranger are probably the most difficult to justify, as you've spent much of your life cooped up within Candlekeep's walls rather than out in the wilds.

    I'd also add Barbarian (basically all the "nature-based" classes are hard to justfy), which I will come to later. I also have some problems with the cleric class: I just have a hard time seeing a deity grant you power and appoint you as a "representative", when knowing about your nature as a Bhaal Spawn.
  • Tysonm1Tysonm1 Member Posts: 40
    Personally I find it's fighter that had to be most linear out the bunch. Getting holy smite and the likes later on in the game kind of made it perfect for the class, or possibly going down the path of a Cleric to be able to have such a fierce connection with Bhaal from getting all the free goody-baddy spells along the way.
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    I think Mage makes the most sense, because your father was a Mage and you are always surrounded by mages.
  • Tysonm1Tysonm1 Member Posts: 40
    It all makes sense now... the character was a Cleric/Mage! I shall make this and write a book on it as he goes through. Now the most difficult part is figuring out whether or not the main character was a male or female...
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    They all make the most amount of sense. Or, rather, the same. That is, any combination of race and class can be explained in less than a paragraph.
  • Ammar_87Ammar_87 Member Posts: 21

    They all make the most amount of sense. Or, rather, the same. That is, any combination of race and class can be explained in less than a paragraph.

    Of course.

    But from a point of view of story, some classes are simply 'stronger' than others.

    A druid for instance is harder to motivate than a mage or a sorceror.
  • ghostowlghostowl Member Posts: 171
    The Sorcerer makes the most sense. This is because Irenicus was trying to teach the main PC how to harness his inner powers to destroy beings that you would otherwise "succumb to muscle and skill"
  • XerxesVXerxesV Member Posts: 187
    Cleric kits always bothered me in BG2 because how uncouth is it to devote your life to lathander or talos when your power comes from Bhaal? Seems disloyal.

    Most classes can be explained by either good teaching by gorion, obscure tomes in candlekeep, or rebelling against gorion somehow. The least likely is Druid. You might sympathize, but how could you get in touch with nature in a library enough to learn spells? I doubt Bhaal cares about mother nature (except maybe malaria carrying insects).
  • XerxesVXerxesV Member Posts: 187
    @entropyxii YES. Perfect analysis. BG is a 'bards tale' sequel
  • Ammar_87Ammar_87 Member Posts: 21
    edited September 2013

    I used to say Mage (Gorion's Ward) or Assassin (Bhaal Spawn Progeny - if Imoen can be a thief then why not?)

    Whereas I still believe those two above are strong candidates, someone on these very forums mentioned to me some time ago however, that a Bard would be the most likely candidate.

    A bard you say?! Never you say!?!

    Well think about it:

    1) Oghma is the Patron of Candlekeep and the Patron of Bards.

    2) Bards like books and knowledge. Candlekeep is a pretty big library. With books.

    3) Bard's can cast spells. Gorion is a mage and can teach spells.

    4) Bard's can use some thief skills. Imoen is a thief and probably taught CHARNAME.

    5) Bard's have some small combat ability. From various encounters at the beginning of the game, it is insinuated that CHARNAME has at least 'some' martial skill.

    6) Most conversation responses appear to direct you towards the more charming and funny responses. Admit it. You click on them, even if you're playing a Chaotic Evil badman.

    So in conclusion, a jack of all trades bard CHARNAME grew up in the most perfect environment to learn a whole variety of skills and abilities, including spells and thievery. He/she had a wealth of knowledge at their disposal. If he/she was a religious sort, well the ONLY shrine in the entire library was to the god of knowledge: Oghma.

    Bards. I hate bards. Yet it is the most logical answer.

    You basically saved me time from writing about Bard because this is exactly what I was going to write, plus more that I originally didn't think of (like the connection with Imoen) ;)

    I'd also add that of the special kits, I think Blade makes the most sense, to focus on that martial aspect (and which is why I chose Blade for my BG:EE run)

    Skald never made sense to me. How is your PC supposed to be a nordic bard when s/he has lived all his/her life in Candlekeep?
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Pretty sure this exact same discussion was had here before.

    In essence, keep in mind that CHARNAME is a lvl1 with 0xp. That's an empty slate, a blank page with nothing on it except the headline.

    CHARNAME lived most of his/her life surrounded by one of the vastest collections of books in the realms. It would have been an easy thing to develop an interest in pretty much ANYTHING - and that's what his lvl1/0xp class is, pretty much.

    As for the quarterstaff, it could be considered a training weapon of sorts, something simple, hardly lethal, useful if you want to go through woods and hills around the keep, exploring.
  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    edited September 2013
    @Lord_Tansheron - Logical does not necessarily mean canon, and in no way do I mean to imply that my above statements imply canon at all. There is already the abomination that is Abdel Adrian causing a wave of destruction across the game which I love.

    I simply mean to state that the above facts would indeed be logical in regards to a logical CHARNAME. It appears to me that the game seems to have been built with a certain archetype in mind. A quarterstaff wielding bard would make the most sense by all accounts. This does not mean to imply that no other class could be explained or could be roleplayed in any way or form.

    It is that in my opinion, whereas I have played through the game with most classes, using most weapons - this is the combo in which I truly felt at home in the world of Baldur's Gate. Backstory, weapon choices and conversation options come together into a fantastic amalgamation of roleplaying potential which is difficult to deny.

    I say this with two simple facts in mind: I hate bards. I hate the quarterstaff. Truly, I genuinely do. Thus, my above comments are expressed objectively and utterly without bias.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    I understand your position, I simply contend that your arguments are circumstantial at best. You could make similar arguments for pretty much all other classes. There isn't enough concrete information, let alone evidence, to strongly suggest a particular scenario beyond conjecture and speculation.
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    The two that make the most sense for CHARNAME is Fighter and Mage...

    There's exactly not a shortage of possibilities to learn spellcasting in Candlekeep, and the guards there could easily teach you how to swing a weapon...

    Rgoues would be more a self-taught class in Candlekeep, I suppose it could work...

    The Cleric Kits are kind quesionable probably, since the only temple there is for Oghma, becoming a Priest of Lathander, Helm or Talos might be slightly challenging.

    Druids, I think the best explanation is that you can gather enough knowledge in Candlekeep to be somewhat of a druid... You do get to meet with Jaheira quite soon who is a Druid, maybe she helps you actually become a druid. The druid kits though, I doubt Candlekeep has a problem with werewolves to become a Shapeshifter and I somehow doubt Candlekeep keeps around easily accessable information to druidic rituals enough for CHARNAME to become an Avenger...

    Paladins, I suppose the same as Fighters... But I think the Paladins in BG are more for Helm, so once again not much chances of getting in touch with Helm...

    Rangers, the most "forest" you have is the Garden in the middle... Not really enough nature inside there to really become a Ranger with.
  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    @Lord_Tansheron - Agreed, and it is likely there will never be any proof to be had. As I said, my favourite two CHARNAMES have been my mage and my assassin. I roleplayed them well, and I also consider the backstory and dialogue options were excellent throughout.

    All theories are viable, but you must admit.. the bard one is a pretty decent one xD
  • RnRClownRnRClown Member Posts: 182
    I love the theory regarding the Bard class, and the quarterstaff. I grew to appreciate the class and its potential back story in recent times. This only furthers my admiration.

    To ponder on the Wizard Slayer class, as mentioned in the original post.
    Ammar_87 said:

    Wizard Slayer:
    This one makes the least sense for me. Let’s first ignore the fact that wizard slayers are “formally” trained by *sects* (I guess one could posit that you could’ve found some dusty old manual deep within the library). The question that later presents itself is “why”? As an evil character, sure, I could see you grow up with some sort of disdain towards the mages you who surround you, for whatever reasons. But why would a good-aligned character want to essentially specialize in fighting (killing) those that raised you?

    It could be rather that as an individual of a warrior disposition, who has grown up around mages, and been raised by particularly skilled and respected mage in Gorion, that Charname has garnered a wealth of knowledge about the strengths, abilities, and many talents of magic users. To learn of someones strengths in such an intimate way is to also shed light on their weaknesses. Thus, if Charname was to use that knowledge in reverse there would they uncover a detailed knowledge on how to combat mages.

    Charname may well have never thought about it as such, nor ever intended to use the information gained in such a manner, but perhaps Gorion knew there would come a day when he was no longer there to protect his adopted child against those who use magic for unjust causes. Gorion was not so short sighted to understand that a run-of-the-mill warrior would fall to even the most novice of mage, so made certain that Charname picked up on all the necessary subtle points that at the time seemed so trivial to his young ward, but would one day shine brightest of all Gorion's teachings when he was at his most vulnerable, and at the same moment realize why Gorion swore him to secrecy concerning these teachings whilst residing within the walls of Candlekeep.
  • XerxesVXerxesV Member Posts: 187
    @rnrclown dang. Maybe gorion saw the future and knew irenicus would come for CHARNAME someday. He prepared him years in advance to resist wizards. Woah.
  • MoradinMoradin Member Posts: 372
    edited September 2013
    I like this thread. It is of course just for the sake of argument, since anyone is perfectly entitled to create CHARNAME as it pleases him/her, but it's an interesting consideration nonetheless. Here's my 2 cents:

    -Fighter, barbarian, ranger and all related classes and kits make little sense in my opinion because most of them (especially barbarian/ranger) rely on teachings that I don't see Candlekeep guards would be able to provide. Let's not forget Candlekeep is a library: there's scholars there, people interested in keeping knowledge of the past and increasing it for other people to explore. I don't see how such an environment could possibly be a training ground for warriors. A safe assumption is that members of the watch in Candlekeep are provided by other more organized cities, like Beregost, Baldur's Gate or why not, Waterdeep, since the church of Oghma sponsors no military or knightly orders per se. On a side note, barbarians are not indigenous to Candlekeep and that area of the Sword Coast in general. You can easily place barbarians from Luskan up north to IceWind Dale, but it makes little sense to have a barbarian in Candlekeep. The dudes are not even supposed to know how to read per 3rd edition rules and if there's something CHARNAME had time to learn during his adolescence is how to read, for sure. Rangers and druids alike need to have a relationship with nature that I don't see how Candlekeep would be able to supply. One could also argue that CHARNAME might have wondered outside of Candlekeep from time to time, might have been able to interact with nature etc... but to the best of my knowledge CHARNAME was always sheltered by Gorion inside the walls and probably never left the small settlement.

    -Cleric: he/she could have found faith in Oghma and his teachings, which seems reasonable given Candlekeep is almost entirely populated by scholars and priests devoted to the Lord of Knowledge. All other deities would have found it pretty hard to sneak inside the walls and turn CHARNAME to their respective faiths. Of course it would be entirely possible for a deity to do so, if the stakes would be high enough, so this possibility is not to be excluded. It's just unlikely, but far from impossible.

    -Paladin/monk: Oghma does not have paladins, so this class would be automatically excluded. A few monasteries train monks on the path of knowledge (Wrestlers of Knowledge by name) and Candlekeep holds one of such enclaves. On the other hand, we did not see monks in Candlekeep, but that doesn't automatically mean they're not there and that CHARNAME couldn't have grown up as one. It's a possibility that remains intact to my eyes. So: paladin no, monk might be.

    -Thief: there was a prestige class on Song and Silence, the Temple Raider of Olidammara, that could potentially fit here. It is about a thief that would work in cooperation with churches to steal relics and other sacred objects in the name of the faith. They would basically do the churches' dirty laundry. This would bring forth the interesting possibility of a secret sect of thieves (and who's best to keep it secret than the church of the Lord of Knowledge) that aims to seize precious rare books for the church. In this optic, CHARNAME could be part of such a sect, but most if not all other routes would be barred, at least at the very beginning of the adventure.

    -Wizard/Sorcerer: Gorion is, in fact, a wizard. It is very possible that he trained his pupil to follow his footsteps. Sorcerer is an even better fitting class, because it would fit well with the fact that Irenicus wanted to tap power from CHARNAME as @ghostowl pointed out, a power that he/she was gradually coming to control and understand until the premature departure of his/hers beloved stepfather.

    -Bard: this class also makes a lot of sense, because Oghma is patron of bards and knowledge, as pointed out by others ( @EntropyXII in particular). So the possibility exists and it's indeed quite strong.

    Of course the above considerations are conveyed taking in consideration only the "nurture" part of the equation, like so well @Ammar_87 placed it. Little is known about the "nature" part because in my opinion that's up to the player to fill. It is entirely possible that CHARNAME is for example an assassin, a smart one, smart enough to hide his true nature until the right opportunity presented itself.
    Post edited by Moradin on
  • RnRClownRnRClown Member Posts: 182
    @XerxesV: I honestly cannot tell if that was an attempt at sarcasm or befuddled amazement. Either way, fictional role playing hypotheses only make sense so far as it seems plausible to our own criteria. Can't please all of the people all of the time.
  • XerxesVXerxesV Member Posts: 187
    @rnrclown no I liked it. Very well written. Great job. I was serious about irenicus.
  • CutlassJackCutlassJack Member Posts: 493
    Most things can make sense from an RP perspective. Candlekeep is full of books and those books are full of stories and knowledge. Any one of those books could have inspired the hero on his path, or provided knowledge needed.

    For example my Swashbuckler particularly loved the tales of pirates and derring-do he read as a child. He emulated those stories, practicing his charm, wit and swordplay. He never actually was a pirate, of course, and tends to act more like one out of a novel than reality. But he at least got the basics down before being cast out of Candlekeep. :)
  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323
    That's why I go for a Berserker/Cleric. Berserker - because my father was god of Murder; Cleric - after I "learn" about my ancestry.

    I love when powerplaying meets roleplaying.
  • Night_WatchNight_Watch Member Posts: 514
    edited September 2013
    dragon disciple. maybe you thought the reason you were sheltered in candlekeep for so long was b/c of your ancestry tied to dragons. little did you know...

    or wild mage, it's like hiding a loose cannon, and what's nice is that as your character matures and grows, so does their power and they learn to better control the Wild Surges etc.
    Post edited by Night_Watch on
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    edited September 2013
    In my most recent outing, CHARNAME was a fighter/swashbuckler and Imoen was the bard. That way, Imoen gets to do the thief-mage thing without dual-classing (I also play with the tweak to make gems and potions require identification, so a bard is very handy!).

    Dual-classing never made much sense to me in the narrative anyway.

    "What do you mean, you can't open that locked chest, Imoen? Montaron just got chunked by an ogre and we need someone to pick the eff-ing lock! You could pick locks just fine yesterday! And why are you all of sudden a lousy shot - with a sling - when you've got a magic freaking bow in your backpack?"
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited September 2013
    As I've mentioned twice before, the character lack-luster interest in learning (but not dumb by any stretch), at least in his younger days, has been outright stated several times, in game, therefore a mage or bard, at least at the start is likely impossible. (He's also implied to have had a chaotic (frequently shirking duties and classes to have fun) but benevolent streak (if a little snarky at times), making CG his mostly likely starting alignment).

    A thief (Imeon being one of his best friends growing up) or a fighter (Fuller implies the PC has trained with guards many times before) are the most likely candidates.


    Druids, barbarians, rangers are rightout, you cannot learn those skills from a manual, they need practical experience as well.

    Monks no, Candlekeep isn't that kind of Monastery.

    Clerics would only be possible if they're drawing on their divinity for spells, but I'm sure they'd notice very early on that their patron wasn't speaking to them the way that other clerics commune with their deities for inspiration for new goals.

    Sorcerer is unlikely due to their known frequent training with the guard. Sorcerers without exception develop their powers early and due to the ease the Art comes to them, disdain pretty much all other pursuits beyond exploring their own powers.

    Due to the explicit timeline involved, only really Human, Half-Elf, and Half-orc fit as possible race choices. An Elf would be around 40 to be Charname's level of development, while dwarves and Gnomes would need about 28-ish, Halflings are pretty close, but not exactly there.


    As mentioned earlier I'm reasonably sure that the PC is a CG Human Fighter, who later duals to a mage after getting to experience what an epic level mage can do to you when you are focused only on physical combat first hand. (and keep in mind 8-10 are a level of experience for grizzled veterans that most people will never reach in their lifetime, so in-setting they are a group of very experienced adventurers getting roflstomped effortless by enemies with powerful magical aid).
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