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Do you think Dorn will betray us in BG2EE ?

SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
edited September 2013 in Archive (General Discussion)
Well, let's face it - what can we expect from this NPC in BG2EE? I have reasons to believe he will ultimately betray the CHARNAME and either leave or fight us.
Reasons:
1) He is a Blackguard of some renown and under the patronage of an evil fiend. The Fiend can see CHARNAME as danger and command Dorn to kill us. Lore and story-wise it's entirely possible. What will Dorn do?
2) Dorn is OP (as in Over-POWERED!) Why would we be given ludicrously lackluster Rasaad, neurotically nudging Neera and this big strong fella as the third NPC? Only for most players to start liking him and play with him and plan their parties with Dorn in...all the better for the devs when they have Dorn betray and assassinate us in BG2EE. (Diabolically devious move. I like it.)
3) It will be a pretty good story. It will spew many and many emotions on the forums and...nobody will see it coming. (In case I was right, admins please delete this thread.)
  1. Do you think Dorn will betray us in BG2EE ?109 votes
    1. I hope not
      29.36%
    2. Yes, yes he will
      15.60%
    3. Only good Dorn is a dead Dorn!
        8.26%
    4. "I can change him!" (wishing for his alignment-changing quest)
      19.27%
    5. I like jelly bonbons...
      27.52%
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Comments

  • OzzyBotkinsOzzyBotkins Member Posts: 396
    Sounds like an interesting idea. maybe the developers will have him being able to be redeemed like Viconia was.
  • OzzyBotkinsOzzyBotkins Member Posts: 396
    FTR I do like Jelly Bon Bons also. and chocolate cover jelly rings are my favorite
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    My own answer is - YES. Even though I like Dorn, I played most of my BGEE playthroughs with him and I will join forces with him in BG2EE...but this would be a staggering story that I don't want to miss.
  • MessiMessi Member Posts: 738
    OzzyBotkins said:

    Sounds like an interesting idea. maybe the developers will have him being able to be redeemed like Viconia was.

    I would absolutely hate this. You can already influence Viconia and Sarevok(or was that only Ascension thing) to change their evil ways. How about now we get the option to turn NPC evil instead, obviously Rasaad would be only option here.

  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    I agree with @Messi - too many "good-only" options and rewards. Especially in BGEE.

    "Shun your goody goody ways and revel in the bloodshed!"
  • LuigirulesLuigirules Member Posts: 419
    No chance. Sure, maybe it could make sense lore-wise, but business says otherwise. They only introduced four new NPCS, to cut one off partway through the game wouldn't look good. People would accuse them of being too lazy to add enough content for the entire game.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,725
    No way. The man has fought his socks off against the betrayal so it absolutely has no sense to act as someone he has slaughtered. He has principles. No bloody way.
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    I can easily see this being one of the potential directions his story can take, but I doubt it would be likely. Dorn is quite loyal to the protagonist, and respects Charname's power. Charname being a demigod, it would make sense that by the time a conflict of interest arises regarding Patron vs. Charname, Dorn will consider himself better off sticking with Charname.

    I'd say all bets are off if Charname is Good, though.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Dorn will not betray Charname without first being betrayed by her or him in some fashion (exactly whether Charname might consider the act, whatever it might be, as a betrayal her/himself is, however, debatable). My reason for arguing this is mainly because the concept of loyalty and trust is incredibly key to Dorn's character as it has currently been presented to us to BG:EE. For all his evil mass-murdering ways, he is presented as especially valuing the virtue of camaraderie (alongside the virtue of strength, which is also primary). There is a naive streak to Dorn that expects evil people to work together loyally for a common goal, this is part of why he appears to feel so hurt by the betrayal of her former comrades. In his dialogues with them, especially the women with whom it is hinted he had either explicit relations (Krynn) or at least a desire for such (the other one whose name I forget). When he speaks to Krynn especially, his dialogue makes it clear that he expected better at least of her, someone with whom he had become close. His brief romance prelude also hints at this ('perhaps you and I...'), as does he habit with finding untrustworthy individuals in your party regardless of who you have in it. It is this that i find makes Dorn an interesting character.

    So, in brief, I do not believe Dorn will betray Charname unless it is in retaliation for another wrongdoing on Charname's behalf. The wrongdoing in question might be done unknowingly, but it will be a specific act that Dorn will presumably make reference to.
  • MoiraMoira Member Posts: 173
    ...and Dorn knows that none who cross me live to tell the tale ;)
  • WilburWilbur Member Posts: 1,173
    But if he does he'll be sorry... for the few seconds he lives.
  • Awong124Awong124 Member Posts: 2,643
    Betrayal by a party member has been done, so I don't think it's likely.

    I think Dorn was made to be OP compared to Rasaad was give some incentive to play an evil party. It's more difficult to play an evil party.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Worth noting that a huge portion of Dorn's OPness comes from his 19 Strength, which will become pretty irrelevant in late BG2 as strength-setting items become common. Taking him away from us just as he's becoming more balanced would be... weird.

    From an in-character perspective, I'm on the same page as Eudaemonium. Dorn is not exactly a man of many morals, but the one he does seem to have is loyalty.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I hope not because then we'd have the old lack of evil NPCs. With Hexxat joining, Dorn leaving, it would still only be one and still not a full party. I more see a path where Dorn's patron sees charname as competition and he gets a choice to do Derailing Quest to prove his loyalty (after which patron thinks Dorn has the party under control and get them all to do his/her bidding), or he leaves the party for a while to do said quest alone, then offers to rejoin later like Keldorn and Jaheira.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Unlikely - in BG:EE he's perfectly willing to swear loyalty to you when he finds out who you really are. The real wild card here is Dorn's "patron" Ur-Gothoz; tanar'ri aren't known for being trustworthy...
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    shawne said:

    The real wild card here is Dorn's "patron" Ur-Gothoz; tanar'ri aren't known for being trustworthy...

    Exactly. I like the fact, that most people find this not possible...it would make any possible betrayal even more shocking.
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    For his sake, I do hope not.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    For the record, I can totally see Ur-Gothoz getting on your bad side. Then you'd go fight him and Dorn could steal his powers in a more permanent fashion. But I don't see Dorn, personally, betraying you.
  • CoryNewbCoryNewb Member Posts: 1,330
    I won't get any work done thinking about jelly bonbons all afternoon. Thanks.
  • ErgErg Member Posts: 1,756
    edited September 2013
    He will cheat on CHARNAME with Phaere and their relationship will never be the same.
  • redlineredline Member Posts: 296
    Eudaemonium said:

    I do not believe Dorn will betray Charname unless it is in retaliation for another wrongdoing on Charname's behalf. The wrongdoing in question might be done unknowingly, but it will be a specific act that Dorn will presumably make reference to.

    I like this idea. An NPC betraying the PC is one thing, and it's been done before. The idea of the betrayal going the other way, though -- and then introducing a sideplot where said NPC becomes a minor antagonist -- is pretty unique. I'd love to see something like this happen, provided there's more complexity than just "Dorn gets mad and attacks".

    That's all wishful thinking, though. Realistically, I think the answer to the OP's question is "no", but we can dream...
  • BladeDancerBladeDancer Member Posts: 477
    Just because he is neutral evil doesn't mean that he will. Jeez, I swear, people stereotype the evil alignment too much as backstabbers. I'm positive that Dorn won't betray our charnames unless we give him a reason to, or he finds some other reason. Remember, neutral evil aligned characters are prone to betray their allies if they have something to gain from it.

    Personally, I think I can change his alignment, or at least convince him to betray his patron deity, show him that he is nothing more than a slave to his deity. My charname wants resist Bhaal's taint, and pursue his own power and destiny, and I think I can convince Dorn to do the same, to teach him to find the will to defy Ur-Gothoz despite all the power he gave Dorn and teach him to search out his own power and destiny.
  • RedGuardRedGuard Member Posts: 672
    I'd imagine there could be a possibility he will betray you. In my opinion it should happen in certain cases. It would be nice to have the chance to change his alignment as well as the opportunity to make him loyal instead if you prove you're stronger than he could ever be.
  • XerxesVXerxesV Member Posts: 187
    Personally, I would feel betrayed if he didn't betray me. An Evil, demon-possessed, blackguard-Orc... who loyally obeys my every command and accepts my BFF necklace? Doesn't sound plausible.

    I'm expecting utter betrayal where he leads me into the clutches of his demonic patron. Then I get to fight my way out and show him why Bhaal is superior :)
  • taltamirtaltamir Member Posts: 288
    Southpaw said:

    under the patronage of an evil fiend.

    This does not mean betrayal as long as you are working within the fiend's plots and goals.
    If you do not... well I could see a quest to eliminate the fiend, and maybe if you are evil take the fiend's place.
  • Tysonm1Tysonm1 Member Posts: 40
    This might by my Warhammer side of me speaking but if he was to betray me, then more than likely my character will just splatter him and find a replacement soon enough. Play way too much Imperial Guard and Orkz...
  • MoiraMoira Member Posts: 173
    KidCarnival said:

    I more see a path where Dorn's patron sees charname as competition and he gets a choice to do Derailing Quest to prove his loyalty (after which patron thinks Dorn has the party under control and get them all to do his/her bidding), or he leaves the party for a while to do said quest alone, then offers to rejoin later like Keldorn and Jaheira.

    Ooh, I like this! And you know what, I'd be quite willing to fight with a jealous evil deity over Dorn's blade and soul. Would give CHARNAME a sweet chance to flex those Bhaal powers!
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    If you have Safana in your party, then you already know that he called her out as a rat. Dorn will follow charnam as long as charnam isn't a wimp.

    What the devs SHOULD do, is turn Dorn into a rep checker. Once in awhile, the CHARNAM should be reminded of just how evil that dude is.

    An example:

    While walking around some dirt ball little girl gets caught stealing from CHARNAM. Charnam is given several dialogue options but non of them satisfy Dorn, Dorn wants her hands hacked off. The dialogue options progress with CHARNAM faced with looking weak in the eyes of Dorn and risk having him leave the party or attack the PC, or the PC takes a reputation hit by mutilating a hungry kid. It's a dark and brutal scenario, but I mean you are traveling with a frickin demon worshipping pyschopath. It's time to take the kids gloves off (no pun intended).
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    BladeDancer said:

    Just because he is neutral evil doesn't mean that he will. Jeez, I swear, people stereotype the evil alignment too much as backstabbers. I'm positive that Dorn won't betray our charnames unless we give him a reason to, or he finds some other reason. Remember, neutral evil aligned characters are prone to betray their allies if they have something to gain from it.

    @BladeDancer - I completely understand you brother, but I assure you - this is not the case. I have always pursued to not mistake "Evil" alignments for "Stupid Evil" alignments, where a SE character does idiotic, illogical things only because "for the evulz". However, if you take into consideration the fact, that "Netural Evil" mostly means "I value my well-being more than yours", Dorn can be blackmailed by his patron (Ur-Gothoz) into betraying CHARNAME. Or tricked into believing, that CHARNAME has actually betrayed him. Or funneling Dorn's anger against the CHARNAME's goals. There's a lot of misfortune that Dorn can cause, even unknowingly.
    And we do not harbor high hopes for Ur-Gothoz. He might do it just for the lulz.
    Some men can not be reasoned or bargained with.
    Some men just want to watch the world burn.
  • taltamirtaltamir Member Posts: 288
    edited September 2013
    Southpaw said:

    Some men can not be reasoned or bargained with.
    Some men just want to watch the world burn.

    And in D&D they are called CHAOTIC evil.

    Which is pretty insulting considering the difference between lawful good and chaotic good is that the former are big government centralists and the latter are anti-government pro personal freedom.
    Lawful evil are sanctioned as functioning within society but for some reason chaotic evil are officially stated to just want the world to burn instead of combining anti government resentment with willingness to harm innocents to advance their own personal goals.
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