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What bugs me about rpg romances

ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
edited August 2012 in Archive (General Discussion)
Is how they have evolved into time to take over the games they are in.

I mean, bg2 romances (which were the first ones I have encountered) were done subtly, meaning that you might not even notice they were there for the first through playthroughs. Whereas nowadays, all the bioware games make romances the be all and end all of character development.

Some really bad design decisions can mean that
1. You are not roleplaying your character in the way they would act, you are just choosing a personality that is most compatible with your love interests opinion on the situation
2. If really badly done, like in DA2, then virtually every other line of dialogue in the game is some discussion or analogy about sex, which gets really tiresome and grating.

I do like romances if they are nicely written in game as interesting diversions, but they have to be implemented correctly, and some games in the past have made me wish that a lot of the work put in to making a million romance options was actually used to increase the quality of the game instead.

Oh, and FFS if you are going to make a gay, straight or bi character to romance, make sure the writer you hire for this is of the corresponding sexual orientation. It is pretty obvious if this is not the case.
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Comments

  • AlderonAlderon Member Posts: 53
    ajwz said:

    Oh, and FFS if you are going to make a gay, straight or bi character to romance, make sure the writer you hire for this is of the corresponding sexual orientation. It is pretty obvious if this is not the case.

    I don't think you need to have the same sexual orientation of the romance you're writing for it to be well written.
    I do. Because personal experience is a much better tool for writing than anything else. That's why most successful writers are of an older generation, because they have more life experience and what they are writing is based around their own experiences in life or what they have observed.

    I agree with ajwz, in-game romances (particularly from BioWare) have gone too far these days. If I wanted to play a dating sim, there's plenty available from Japan. I don't. I want a quality RPG experience.

    Baldur's Gate delivers on the RPG while still having it's characters feel personable and alive. And that's why it's the best, even today.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Don't you think their evolution is sort of tied to the evolution of games in general? Like in ME and DA, you can no longer trade a few words or a bit of flirting with your LI while on the road and slowly build something up from what starts as casual conversation Rather, everything takes place during set moments, that are often designed to be immediately meaningful.

    Still, while I agree DA2 is horrible, I don't think the DAO romances, or the ME ones for that matter, are handled poorly, as in I didn't get a feeling that they took over the game.


    As for the gay/straight/bi part, I don't know. I'd like to think a skilled writer could overcome this. Or is it similarly impossible for a female to write a romance from a male perspective? In my opinion the way people think and feel about love/romance differs enough between individuals that orientation won't be the deciding factor. What one straight guy might find super sweet, another might find cheesy and lame, and so on.
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    I'm not a fan of RPG romances but I agree with Tanthalas, the quality of the writing depends on the ability not the sexual orientation of the writer. You don't need to be gay to write a gay romance anymore than you need to be straight to write a straight one.
  • AedanAedan Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 8,550
    I disagree. You don't need to be gay or lesbian for writing s/s romances. Leliana and Zevran, for instance, pleased homosexual gamers, and they have been written by David Gaider, a stright man.
    Same for Steve Cortez romance: written by Dusty Everman, another straight man, but people fell in love with the character nonetheless.
  • AlderonAlderon Member Posts: 53
    Aedan said:

    I disagree. You don't need to be gay or lesbian for writing s/s romances. Leliana and Zevran, for instance, pleased homosexual gamers, and they have been written by David Gaider, a stright man.
    Same for Steve Cortez romance: written by Dusty Everman, another straight man, but people fell in love with the character nonetheless.

    I can agree with Leliana, she was pretty well done. But Zevran? Zevran was a man-whore with no real depth. That's why I never used him in DA:O he was too much of a stretch as a believable character.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Aedan said:

    I disagree. You don't need to be gay or lesbian for writing s/s romances. Leliana and Zevran, for instance, pleased homosexual gamers, and they have been written by David Gaider, a stright man.
    Same for Steve Cortez romance: written by Dusty Everman, another straight man, but people fell in love with the character nonetheless.

    I'll have to strongly disagree with Zevran being well written. It irked me that his bi-sexuality was reduced to lines like:

    "blah, blah, blah, but I can do men too if you prefer that."
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    ajwz said:

    Oh, and FFS if you are going to make a gay, straight or bi character to romance, make sure the writer you hire for this is of the corresponding sexual orientation. It is pretty obvious if this is not the case.

    I don't think you need to have the same sexual orientation of the romance you're writing for it to be well written.
    Well ok, I'll not discount the possibility entirely, but from experience, jeez...
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Drugar said:

    Let me shag a Krogan!

    This man's courage is an inspiration to us all :p

  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    I think I'd need more than a swig of some strong dwarven ale before I attempted to shag Korgan.
  • AedanAedan Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 8,550
    edited August 2012
    @Alderon
    @Tanthalas
    What I meant - and I think it is CLEARLY written in my previous post- is that you don't need to be gay or lesbian for writing s/s romances. If you state the contrary, it would mean that gay man/woman could not write straight romances, but PLEASE... These are awful stereotypes.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Aedan

    I'm not disagreeing with that since its also an opinion that I share.

    I just don't agree that Zevran is a good example.
  • immagikmanimmagikman Member Posts: 664
    edited August 2012
    In that case nearly 90% of all the great fiction EVER written must be a figment of my imagination.
    You clearly do not understand writing and creativity if you think one must actually experience that which one is writing about.
  • JerkyJerky Member Posts: 9
    If you do lots and lots of research on something, don't you now have knowledge of it? :)
  • immagikmanimmagikman Member Posts: 664
    When it comes to Romance, Sex and Relationships there are no "Experts" just a LOT of very opinionated people...if it were a known science then there would be no Need for the Billion dollar industry of self help relationship books, tapes and dvds.
  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    Romances should indeed be more subtle and there should be more obstacles and options involved. @Drugar 's Dwarf example is a good one. Dwarves always seem to miss out on romances, it seems. But hey, they're people too! I'd be interested in seeing how a relationship between a Dwarf and an Elf would work out, for example. Might seem weird and controversial, but hey, they're both people with feelings, so why not? Elves just conform to our modern society's ideal of beauty and elegance, and thus they're preferably romanceable. Dwarves are thought to not be physically attractive. I once tried creating an attractive female Dwarf in DA:O and must say I succeeded at it. So yeah, why no Dwarf romances? As for the other points, I fully agree with @Drugar. I am against the idea of making all romanceable NPCs bisexual, because it would damage the integrity of the character's personality. DA:O did it right. You got different characters with different backgrounds and different sexual orientations, which made them all the more interesting and, yes, also more realistic as characters in their own universe. Making all characters bisexual therefore undermines their believability. Also, note how the term 'making' already undermines the integrity of the character in itself, as it implies you can just 'adjust' his/her personality to satisfy the player's demands. It's like not accepting the character for who he/she is, but forcing your own view of them upon them. It's quite selfish from the player, actually.
  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    Whoops, double post. Sorry, guys. :/
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Kitteh_On_A_Cloud
    I took care of it.
  • Syntia13Syntia13 Member Posts: 514
    @Drugar
    Amen to everything you said, brother.
    However to this:
    Drugar said:

    Let me shag a Krogan!

    My evil halfling lady says: "YOU! Oy, YOU! You step away from my man this instant you filthy man-snatcher, or I'll put a dart through your eye faster than you can blink!!"

    ;D
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    Drugar said:

    I don't mind romances in games, but there are a few very annoying trends that should go;
    Mass Effect included the very stylish Garrus and Thane, as well as the mysteeeerious Tali as aliens, but all are fairly attractive. Let me shag a Krogan! Let me step beyond appearances!

    Garrus is "fairly attractive"? Really?! ... I never, ~never~ noticed. (Really, I didn't! lol)
  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    @Tanthalas: Thank you! :)
    @recklessheart: I personally don't get all the fangirl-swooning over Mass Effect's Garrus. I could never date someone like him. I think I'm just not into aliens, lol. :p
  • kilroy_was_herekilroy_was_here Member Posts: 455
    Personally, I don't think any of the alien romances are well done. After all, they're all written by humans! ;0
  • purebredcornpurebredcorn Member Posts: 77
    edited August 2012
    Permidion_Stark said:

    I think I'd need more than a swig of some strong dwarven ale before I attempted to shag Korgan.

    I see what you did there. XD
    Post edited by purebredcorn on
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Drugar said:



    4) There's never a dwarven lady to romance, it's always elves and humans in fantasy. Mass Effect included the very stylish Garrus and Thane, as well as the mysteeeerious Tali as aliens, but all are fairly attractive. Let me shag a Krogan! Let me step beyond appearances!

    I totally wanted a dwarf female romance in DAO for my Human Warrior! I ended up liking the Dark Witch + Badass Reaver couple Morrigan and I made, but before then I always asked for dwarven prostitutes at The Pearl.
    ajwz said:

    Is how they have evolved into time to take over the games they are in.

    I mean, bg2 romances (which were the first ones I have encountered) were done subtly, meaning that you might not even notice they were there for the first through playthroughs. Whereas nowadays, all the bioware games make romances the be all and end all of character development.

    Some really bad design decisions can mean that
    1. You are not roleplaying your character in the way they would act, you are just choosing a personality that is most compatible with your love interests opinion on the situation

    Well, that's ultimately your decision to break character. You can't blame Bioware for that. If you can't get into a romance's pants with your character as they are, and staying true to character is important to you, then DON'T ROMANCE THAT CHARACTER.

    Further, this is simply a limitation of game writing. They cannot provide for the infinite set of possibilities that a player could imagine. It's simply not possible.
    ajwz said:


    2. If really badly done, like in DA2, then virtually every other line of dialogue in the game is some discussion or analogy about sex, which gets really tiresome and grating.

    Like it or not, sex is pretty thoroughly tied to fantasy romance, and DA2 takes place in a morally bankrupt urban hell, so talking about getting down and dirty suits the gritty setting. What did you expect? You could always not choose the dialogue options with the golden hearts.
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    edited August 2012
    recklessheart said:


    Garrus is "fairly attractive"? Really?! ... I never, ~never~ noticed. (Really, I didn't! lol)

    It's mostly the voice acting though. And the giant sniper rifle. And shrugging off a missle to the face. If you consider the human options of ME, Garrus vastly owns them.
    Syntia13 said:

    Drugar said:

    Let me shag a Krogan!

    My evil halfling lady says: "YOU! Oy, YOU! You step away from my man this instant you filthy man-snatcher, or I'll put a dart through your eye faster than you can blink!!"

    ;D
    Wait, your halfling wants to shag a Krogan? Ye gods...how does that even work? You can hang a halfling swing from tha-
    Ok, never mind, I'm gonna wash my brain after that mental image.

  • RazorRazor Member Posts: 436
    Zevran would have a place as a minor npc, as a member of the party he is only filling space for a decent npc. As I said already, romances are extras and should be hidden in game and hard to get right.
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