How about this--and bear in mind that this is me speaking, and not a promise of changes to come:
Shadow Step: 1 / 5 levels Hide in Plain Sight Backstab: - Levels 1-8: no multiplier - Levels 9-17: x2 - Levels 18-29: x3 - Levels 30+: x4 Thieving Skills: 20 per level (30 at level 1) Move Silently: +10% Hide in Shadows: +10%
It'd also be nice to give them a Summon Shadow ability around level 13, but at that point I don't know how useful a Shadow would be.
That's a start :P 4x multiplier is definitely welcome, but I think that by level 30 when you proposed he gets it, monsters that are immune to backstabs are practically everywhere. I don't mind the initial delay, but I really think he needs something when backstabs are actually relevant.
Could you give him a chance to cripple an opponent on backstab in some way, instead of a summon? For example, at level X, you can enter "Shadow Trance" or something, and for the next Y rounds, every backstab does Z to opponent.
The thing is, the Shadowdancer isn't a backstabber. The kit is more about tactical movement and ducking away from combat than it is about dealing devastating attacks. We don't want the Shadowdancer to be a replacement for the Assassin.
I realize that's not a promise Dee, but that sounds really cool.
I'm imagining scouting an enemy party while in stealth - backstab mage - hips or summon shadow to draw attention, backstab or attack someone else while my mage is casting an aoe on the enemy group then shadowstep out of the blast radius the moment before it casts.
have him popping in and out of sight all over the battle drawing attention and confusing the hell out of the enemy - whether they can be backstabbed or not.
The thing is, the Shadowdancer isn't a backstabber. The kit is more about tactical movement and ducking away from combat than it is about dealing devastating attacks. We don't want the Shadowdancer to be a replacement for the Assassin.
Yup this is what I tried to highlight in some of my posts in the related threads. As for your proposed changes, if you go for x4 progression, I would agree that 29 is too late to really be of use. I suppose you consider it borderline for them to even be allowed a x4 which is why you added it this late. I think though you should either make it earlier or remove it because 29 is such a long way into the games that it's almost cosmetic really. I'd suggest lvl21 like Assassin, a good 8 levels after the other thieves already have x5.
Personally I think some extra abilities along the same lines as Shadowstep would be more interesting than a x4 backstab but no suggestions come to mind. Maybe some mage illusion spells like ghost armour or blur, don't know if that's taking it too far. IMO even just giving it the bonus skillpoints makes it a lot better without any further alterations.
The thing is, the Shadowdancer isn't a backstabber. The kit is more about tactical movement and ducking away from combat than it is about dealing devastating attacks. We don't want the Shadowdancer to be a replacement for the Assassin.
And he won't ever be a true backstabber thanks to the low multiplier - I believe there will be no contest between him and the assassin in that regard. But the Assassin can take out almost anything in one hit from stealth, a luxury the sd will rarely afford.
I agree with FrozenCells that 20 sounds about right for the 4x. At least you'll be able to use it for a portion of the game.
Some flavor abilities that still have utility would be cool, I don't know they can even proc on re-stealth if you are able to code it (if not backstab) because the SD is based around that so it would make sense to encourage this behavior.
First of all, I don't think there is very much wrong with the current Shadowdancer. It seems like there are several posters here that share theoretical insight on the kit without actually having tried playing it. Also, there is very much focus on what would be "balanced", while the Baldur's Gate series never were particularly balanced games in the first place. The game is pretty much as balanced as you make it yourself, and stuff only becomes gamebreaking if it's too powerful.
Instead of saying that one thing should be a little bit more like another thing because that other thing earns more of this thing, the game is much more fun when you make the most of the kits and classes that you've got.
All of that being said, my only big issue with the Shadowdancer kit is that they get a little bit too few skill points (as @Xanar mentioned earlier). Maybe 20 per level would nice, as proposed by @Dee? And/or a small bonus to only Hide in Shadows at level 1?
My reasoning behind more skill points is the fact that only 15 points forces the character to focus solely on stealth (aka Move Silently) to be capable of reliable stealthing, while forgoing Detect Traps, for example. Finding traps is an important part of navigating any dungeon, and the Shadowdancer's main skill (stealth) is useless in exploring a dungeon if he can't find the everyday trap.
When it comes to the Shadowdancer's ability to backstab I completely agree that it shouldn't be the kit's focus, but I don't think that his backstabbing abilities should be nerfed any more than it is already. The current max at x3 is fine by me.
I disagree with this idea because I think it's illogical for a Thief archetype that is especially accustomed to the shadows to be completely unable to backstab until level 9, or even at level 1.
By the way, wouldn't it be fitting to give the Shadowdancer Infravision?
EDIT: added a paragraph and edited a couple of other small things
@Dee I like that there's an incentive to take the class higher rather than dualing away at 9, but the lack of stabbity death for most of BG1 makes me a bit sad. But I think the kit could be pretty attractive even limited to its current x3 multiplier with some more tools to work with that aren't focused on backstabbing.
Maybe instead of Summon Shadow, a high level shadowstep could leave a Shadow at the location you used it, and any projectiles en route would hit the Shadow instead. Or a high level shadowstep turns you invisible or translucent (like improved invisibility) for a round when you come out of it. Or once a day the next attack hits your shadow instead (effectively a single layer of stone skin). Or allow a detect illusion check while hidden/shadowstepping?
First of all, I don't think there is very much wrong with the current Shadowdancer. It seems like there are several posters here that share theoretical insight on the kit without actually having tried playing it. Also, there is very much focus on what would be "balanced", while the Baldur's Gate series never was a particularly balanced game in the first place. The game is pretty much as balanced as you make it yourself, and stuff only becomes gamebreaking if it's too powerful.
Instead of saying that one thing should be a little bit more like another thing because that other thing earns more of this thing, the game is much more fun when you make the most of the kits and classes that you've got.
All of that being said, my only big issue with the Shadowdancer kit is that they get a little bit too few skill points. Maybe 20 per level would nice, as proposed by @Dee? And/or a small bonus to only Hide in Shadows at level 1?
When it comes to the Shadowdancer's ability to backstab I completely agree that it shouldn't be the kit's focus, but I don't think that his backstabbing abilities should be nerfed any more than it is already. The current max at x3 is fine by me.
I disagree with this idea because I think it's illogical for a Thief archetype that is especially accustomed to the shadows to be completely unable to backstab until level 9, or even at level 1.
By the way, wouldn't it be fitting to give the Shadowdancer Infravision?
Small bonuses to hide in shadows are fine, but look at the big picture - it's not hard to theorize about these things because a lot of us have mained thieves, assassins and bounty hunters and know the game pretty well, especially when we can theorize about very obvious things such as damage mults.
The problem with the class is that it stops dead with the backstabbing and becomes tickling in time. If I were to adjust the mults it would be.
Level 1-5: no mult Level 6-12: 2x Level 13-19: 3x Level 20+: 4x
I can't fathom how this can sound unreasonable for someone. Was I the only one swimming in invisibility potions and having a few rings of invis as an assissin. In any harder fight, I can invis several times as an assassin and instantly kill anyone. How is the shadow dancer who has the luxury to do it without expanding items or cooldowns going to throw balance out of the equation, especially when his stabs are so much inferior? Once an assassin gets his hands on the Staff of the Magi (and Use any Item) he's a Shadow Dancer on steroids.
That's why he might needs 4x at the very least and some more utility, he is foregoing traps as well, after all.
lvl 1: Once per day, Obscure Sight (speed 1). Target must save vs spells or be blinded for 1d4 rounds. Additional uses gained every 3 levels. Save is made at a -1 penalty per 5 levels.
lvl 5: Gains permanent Infravision. Immunity to blindness.
lvl 7: Once per day can cast Mass Obscure Sight (speed 2). Same as Obscure Sight but hits a 20ft radius, party friendly. Additional use every 8 levels.
lvl 9: Can no longer be backstabbed. Immunity to charm effects.
lvl 10: Shadowy Duplicates once per day. As per mirror image except it is immune to divination spells but not dispel magic.
lvl 12: Can cast summon Shadow once per day. (Undead creature, immunity to normal weapons, drains 2 str on hit (strikes as +2), 4AC 31 HP, and 14 thac0. Creatures reduced to 0 str or lower die. Unlike the mage version, this spell only summons a single shadow but also lasts 1 turn per level).
lvl 15: Permanent Non-detection
lvl 20: Can cast Shadow Double, once per day. As per Simulacrum but is unaffected by divination spells.
(HLA: In place of epic traps, they can purchase additional daily uses of summon shadow, Shadowy Duplicates, and Shadow Double)
Penalties -
Only 15 skill points per level (30 at creation) Cannot use thief traps (including HLA traps) Cannot take UAI as a HLA.
Kits actually ARE new classes though, mechanically. They're based on a particular class yes, and generally serve the same role, and some are very minor in their changes, but are their own thing. It's why you can't take a kit as a multiclass, unless that kit is specifically mentioned as a valid choice for that race to multiclass as, even if they're allowed to be that kit as a single class.
They generally have completely different minimums, they usually can change the playstyles rather dramatically (especially for kits with roleplaying restrictions), NCP access, lack abilities of the parent class (Like fighter kits not going above specialization (or not getting specialization at all in some cases) or thief kits not getting Scroll use at lvl 10, or UAI at 24. Or most bard kits being unable to sing, cast from wands/scrolls or have bardic knowledge, or other penalties).
And there are actually several 2nd edition kits that are forbidden from Dual or multi-classing. Sorcerers can't, Warlocks/Witches can't, Wizard Slayers can't dual/multi with any spell casting class, several more.
And to be fully honest...they shouldn't have tried to implement 3rd edition stuff into 2nd in the first place, there are PLENTY of 2nd edition kits to choose from (not to mention, pretty much all the existing kits are in dire-need of rebalancing). But, if they're going to bother doing it, they should do it right and make sure to capture the spirit of the class while trying to keep it's level of power as close to 2nd edition levels as possible. OR they should stick to actual 2nd edition kits, with their proper levels of power.
The shadow dancer is basically just a thief, who has sacrificed some thief utility and skills to learn a bit of Shadow magic from the illusion school, not full spell-casting mind, at least at first, but they know enough to tap the plane of shadows to fuel a couple tricks here and there. Like being able to pull the surrounding shadows around them, so they can attempt to hide while observed, or cloud an opponents vision. Eventually mastering it enough to call a shadow servant or to utilize shadow magic in a very limited sense to cast a spell or two once per day. It's really no different then what the monk kits currently do to the base monk. The backbone of the base class is still there, it just trades a few things for a few other things.
The dual-class restriction is mostly just to try and compensate for the fact that vanilla thieves are missing their lvl 10 scroll use ability (which only they get) and don't have exclusive rights to UAI as they should (since UAI (Thief) is just the upgraded version of that scroll use ability).
I've mentioned this before, but the HLA could use some reworking. Just limiting the HLA to only be available to certain kits (Assassins get assassination (can be selected more then once, like WWA) (or replace it with an improved poison weapon ability), Swashy get WWA, Thieves get UAI (and can use scrolls at lvl 10), Bounty Hunters get epic traps, Shadowdancer can buy additional daily use of their once per day abilities) would be FAR better imo.
(And bards as well, remove the traps (replace with more bard oriented stuff like lingering song which is an actual 2nd edition HLA), Bards get UAI, Jesters get an improved jester song (and have their missing bonuses/penalties applied), Skald get epic bard song (and their missing bonuses/penalties), and Blades get WWA (and their missing bonuses/penalties, and their song button disabled).
Maybe instead of Summon Shadow, a high level shadowstep could leave a Shadow at the location you used it, and any projectiles en route would hit the Shadow instead. Or a high level shadowstep turns you invisible or translucent (like improved invisibility) for a round when you come out of it. Or once a day the next attack hits your shadow instead (effectively a single layer of stone skin). Or allow a detect illusion check while hidden/shadowstepping?
I agree that it would be very interesting if the shadowdancer got more abilities/options through shadowstep, taking it from a curious escape mechanism to the core of the class. In my mind it could pretty much remove the need for hide in plain sight completely.
But while I like the flavor of the class, right now I'd rather have a mage/thief with many more options, that can cast a proper invisibility and a proper time stop.
A few changes have been made to the Shadowdancer kit to make it better fit its intended role. Here is its updated kit description (changes are highlighted in green): SHADOWDANCER: Shadowdancers can harness the power of magic to increase their stealth abilities. Enigmatic and dangerous, these uniquely skilled Thieves are able to blend seamlessly into the shadows in ways that a normal Thief cannot, striking without warning—sometimes with supernatural speed.
Advantages: – +10% bonus to Hide in Shadows and Move Silently. – Hide in Plain Sight: A Shadowdancer may Hide in Shadows even while being observed. – May cast Shadowstep once per day every 5 levels.
SHADOWSTEP: Step into the Shadow Plane and move for 7 seconds while others are frozen in time. The Shadowdancer cannot attack or cast spells while in the Shadow Plane.
– Slippery Mind: +1 bonus to Saving Throws.
Disadvantages: – Alignment restricted to any non-lawful. – May use Backstab ability, although for a lower damage multiplier than Thieves: Level 1-8: x1 (no multiplier) Level 9-17: x2 Level 18-24: x3 Level 25+: x4 – May only distribute 20 skill points per level (30 at level 1) among thieving skills. – May not use Set Snare ability.
Prime Requisites For Dual-Classing: Strength, Dexterity, Charisma
FYI the shadowdancer has been changed as of the newest update to the Beta. So I take it as you will I guess
First of all, thank you for your input - I appreciate that you took the time and wrote this news here:))
As you can see from some posts on this forum my favourite character in BG is a rogue, a thief especially. I tried many variants in the past and can say it's wonderful that there can be such a difference between several bilds and combos (a F/T multiclass, an assassin, a M/T multiclass, a bounty hunter, a swashbucler) when the general direction stays the same (in this case all of them are thieves).
So understandably when the new kit arrived I was very excited and started to use him right off the bat. The emotions just overflowed. I couldn't stop liking his HiPS ability + backstab available right from the Candlekeep. I thought this was a new, not pestered way to play a thief. I've completed BG:EE with a Shadowdancer (using the Tresset's fix) and it was fun. I think back about it with pleasure.
A little later an information appeared on this forum about the alleged change in this kit with the next patch. Immediately, I didn't like this suggestion. I tried to reflect my point of view in several discussions. Then I created this poll to see what other people think.
And really the majority here voted they liked the kit in general. The voices about the OP nature of a Shadowdancer basically came from those who didn't intent to use this kit anyway. Of course, among those who used this kit there were people with different views. But, as @Basillicum correctly points out, this poll shows that the majority was in favour of not changing the basics of this kit.
The Devs gave us this kit, so they have every possible right to change it the way they want. Now it is clear this kit is seriously redone. Not only adding a cool-down timer but also changing his backstab progression so that "he is not a backstabber" completely changes my own attitude towards this kit: from "badass" to "I don't care I don't plan to use it".
Going back to your quote - personally I won't take it as you have done. The thing I liked about this kit the most now is killed.
I think if they just slightly adjusted the mults to what I (and some others) have said earlier:
Level 1-5: no mult Level 6-12: 2x Level 13-19: 3x Level 20+: 4x
The class would be far more viable, and not broken - you can chain-stab with any thief-assassin given the proper gear (and this gear can be found way before the mid-point of BG2).
Well, I get that people liked the old version but come on, it was silly. For BG1 it was effectively god mode because as long as you paused immediately after a stab, nothing would ever touch you. I speed tested the kit when it was released (just doing the necessary story quests and a few quick but good xp minor ones, oils of speed to get through it more quickly) and it was untouchable. Just backstab and stealth straight after and unless they can see through invisibility constantly (guess how many of these there are?) they're dead meat, it's already over. I'm sure people complained about this without having actually tried it but I did and they were essentially right, generally hide in plan sight is just a difficult feature to manage and in plenty of games it trivializes the experience completely. This was no different.
I'm sure for some that it's fun to play like that because I know that other people have fun boosting all their stats to 25 or importing previous characters so that they can start the game at lvl8 or whatever. Being able to brainlessly backstab at will with no consequence I'm sure had the same kind of appeal. At least though the other characters can be subject to a Hold Person or whatever! The SD isn't even susceptible to that.
Having played the new version of the kit, I really don't see the problem. For BG1 it's a good survivor and damage dealer since it essentially gets +4 to hit every round and can get away from enemy fire quite easily. HIPS gives you plenty of ways to lure enemies away to where you want them and mess about with mages while still giving good damage contribution. If anything, I think for the first game, it's probably the best kit even with a x1 backstab. If you just like backstabbing then I understand why you wouldn't like the new one....but mage/thief, fighter/thief, asssassin etc. are still there for all that backstabby goodness. Do we really need more? I think it's really good that they actually have provided a char which gives you a new way to play the game. The kit won't be for everyone but isn't it a positive thing that it's actually something different?
And you know, even as far as backstabbing goes, it will have its moments. How about lvl20: hide, backstab x3, shadowstep, backstab x3, shadowstep, backstab x3, shadowstep, backstab x3, shadowstep, backstab x3, hide -> whatever, x15 damage in the space of one round, with no consumables used. That's not bad.
@FrozenCells There's a delay after hiding that makes it impossible to hide immediately after backstabbing.
Seriously, I've played the shadowdancer with the old kit, and it was not OP or invincible. Currently that shadowdancer is broken because along with the new changes his backstabbing multiplier is gone while the additional skill points are missing as well. I could add them with EE Keeper or something like, but unfortunately it won't be a perfect fix. Also, I prefer to avoid messing with my save game.
@FrozenCells There's a delay after hiding that makes it impossible to hide immediately after backstabbing.
Seriously, I've played the shadowdancer with the old kit, and it was not OP or invincible. Currently that shadowdancer is broken because along with the new changes his backstabbing multiplier is gone while the additional skill points are missing as well. I could add them with EE Keeper or something like, but unfortunately it won't be a perfect fix. Also, I prefer to avoid messing with my save game.
I have no such delay in my non-beta version. It's simply hide, backstab, and the second it hits, restealth. I retested it this morning to make sure I wasn't talking out of my arse. I have no idea why it would behave differently on the same version of the game but then BG:EE is a bit buggy so who knows.
Unfortunately editing your save is really the only option because updates to the game aren't able to recalculate your current saves properly to conform to the new data, you generally keep stuff that you already attained on the character. It's the same with new mod updates. Don't think there's anything that can be done about it, best is just to continue the game on the previous patch version.
edit - I have a lot of experience with Shadowkeeper/EEKeeper so I can probably edit the save for you in the correct way if you're unused to it but I'm leaving to work so you'd have to wait. The backstab multiplier is in the affects tab so you have to get a char with backstab, find the correct affect and copy it over to your save game to apply it.
That's it. "I have no such delay in my non-beta version." But in the beta version there is a cool down timer when you come out of of the shadows (or after a backstab), so you have to wait before you can hide again. Now it requires a wait instead of immediately turning invisible again.
So after hardly hitting an enemy (without or with a low backstab) you find your shadowdancer in the middle of the fight. The only exit is to use the Shadow Step but the number of its uses is limited and you won't rest after each fight. If the Shadow Step is not used, get prepared for a Magic Missile spell, a heavy hit with an arrow (you're without a helm and in a light armor, right?) and possible death. Other thieves can one-shot an enemy or/and lay some traps and lure enemies (the latter can seem even more tactical than a shadowdancer role).
No number of points put in HiS/MS guarantees a success with becoming invisible. This coupled with a low number of thieving points and low backstab multiplier even without a cool down timer didn't make the kit OP.
Comments
How about this--and bear in mind that this is me speaking, and not a promise of changes to come:
Shadow Step: 1 / 5 levels
Hide in Plain Sight
Backstab:
- Levels 1-8: no multiplier
- Levels 9-17: x2
- Levels 18-29: x3
- Levels 30+: x4
Thieving Skills: 20 per level (30 at level 1)
Move Silently: +10%
Hide in Shadows: +10%
It'd also be nice to give them a Summon Shadow ability around level 13, but at that point I don't know how useful a Shadow would be.
4x multiplier is definitely welcome, but I think that by level 30 when you proposed he gets it, monsters that are immune to backstabs are practically everywhere. I don't mind the initial delay, but I really think he needs something when backstabs are actually relevant.
Could you give him a chance to cripple an opponent on backstab in some way, instead of a summon? For example, at level X, you can enter "Shadow Trance" or something, and for the next Y rounds, every backstab does Z to opponent.
I'm imagining scouting an enemy party while in stealth - backstab mage - hips or summon shadow to draw attention, backstab or attack someone else while my mage is casting an aoe on the enemy group then shadowstep out of the blast radius the moment before it casts.
have him popping in and out of sight all over the battle drawing attention and confusing the hell out of the enemy - whether they can be backstabbed or not.
sounds like fun.
Personally I think some extra abilities along the same lines as Shadowstep would be more interesting than a x4 backstab but no suggestions come to mind. Maybe some mage illusion spells like ghost armour or blur, don't know if that's taking it too far. IMO even just giving it the bonus skillpoints makes it a lot better without any further alterations.
I agree with FrozenCells that 20 sounds about right for the 4x. At least you'll be able to use it for a portion of the game.
Some flavor abilities that still have utility would be cool, I don't know they can even proc on re-stealth if you are able to code it (if not backstab) because the SD is based around that so it would make sense to encourage this behavior.
Instead of saying that one thing should be a little bit more like another thing because that other thing earns more of this thing, the game is much more fun when you make the most of the kits and classes that you've got.
All of that being said, my only big issue with the Shadowdancer kit is that they get a little bit too few skill points (as @Xanar mentioned earlier). Maybe 20 per level would nice, as proposed by @Dee? And/or a small bonus to only Hide in Shadows at level 1?
My reasoning behind more skill points is the fact that only 15 points forces the character to focus solely on stealth (aka Move Silently) to be capable of reliable stealthing, while forgoing Detect Traps, for example. Finding traps is an important part of navigating any dungeon, and the Shadowdancer's main skill (stealth) is useless in exploring a dungeon if he can't find the everyday trap.
When it comes to the Shadowdancer's ability to backstab I completely agree that it shouldn't be the kit's focus, but I don't think that his backstabbing abilities should be nerfed any more than it is already. The current max at x3 is fine by me. I disagree with this idea because I think it's illogical for a Thief archetype that is especially accustomed to the shadows to be completely unable to backstab until level 9, or even at level 1.
By the way, wouldn't it be fitting to give the Shadowdancer Infravision?
EDIT: added a paragraph and edited a couple of other small things
Maybe instead of Summon Shadow, a high level shadowstep could leave a Shadow at the location you used it, and any projectiles en route would hit the Shadow instead. Or a high level shadowstep turns you invisible or translucent (like improved invisibility) for a round when you come out of it. Or once a day the next attack hits your shadow instead (effectively a single layer of stone skin). Or allow a detect illusion check while hidden/shadowstepping?
The problem with the class is that it stops dead with the backstabbing and becomes tickling in time. If I were to adjust the mults it would be.
Level 1-5: no mult
Level 6-12: 2x
Level 13-19: 3x
Level 20+: 4x
I can't fathom how this can sound unreasonable for someone. Was I the only one swimming in invisibility potions and having a few rings of invis as an assissin. In any harder fight, I can invis several times as an assassin and instantly kill anyone. How is the shadow dancer who has the luxury to do it without expanding items or cooldowns going to throw balance out of the equation, especially when his stabs are so much inferior? Once an assassin gets his hands on the Staff of the Magi (and Use any Item) he's a Shadow Dancer on steroids.
That's why he might needs 4x at the very least and some more utility, he is foregoing traps as well, after all.
Same as a thief except -
Base thief skills - PP = 5, OL = 0, Find trap = 0, Hide = 15, MS = 15, DI = 10, ST = 0.
Backstab progression -
- Levels 1-8: no multiplier
- Levels 9-17: x2
- Levels 18+: x3
Can use the stealth skill while being observed.
lvl 1: Once per day, Obscure Sight (speed 1). Target must save vs spells or be blinded for 1d4 rounds. Additional uses gained every 3 levels. Save is made at a -1 penalty per 5 levels.
lvl 5: Gains permanent Infravision. Immunity to blindness.
lvl 7: Once per day can cast Mass Obscure Sight (speed 2). Same as Obscure Sight but hits a 20ft radius, party friendly. Additional use every 8 levels.
lvl 9: Can no longer be backstabbed. Immunity to charm effects.
lvl 10: Shadowy Duplicates once per day. As per mirror image except it is immune to divination spells but not dispel magic.
lvl 12: Can cast summon Shadow once per day. (Undead creature, immunity to normal weapons, drains 2 str on hit (strikes as +2), 4AC 31 HP, and 14 thac0. Creatures reduced to 0 str or lower die. Unlike the mage version, this spell only summons a single shadow but also lasts 1 turn per level).
lvl 15: Permanent Non-detection
lvl 20: Can cast Shadow Double, once per day. As per Simulacrum but is unaffected by divination spells.
(HLA: In place of epic traps, they can purchase additional daily uses of summon shadow, Shadowy Duplicates, and Shadow Double)
Penalties -
Only 15 skill points per level (30 at creation)
Cannot use thief traps (including HLA traps)
Cannot take UAI as a HLA.
I'm sorry, but while it looks like a good idea for a more recent setting I think it's a little too much for the Baldur's Gate series.
They generally have completely different minimums, they usually can change the playstyles rather dramatically (especially for kits with roleplaying restrictions), NCP access, lack abilities of the parent class (Like fighter kits not going above specialization (or not getting specialization at all in some cases) or thief kits not getting Scroll use at lvl 10, or UAI at 24. Or most bard kits being unable to sing, cast from wands/scrolls or have bardic knowledge, or other penalties).
And there are actually several 2nd edition kits that are forbidden from Dual or multi-classing. Sorcerers can't, Warlocks/Witches can't, Wizard Slayers can't dual/multi with any spell casting class, several more.
And to be fully honest...they shouldn't have tried to implement 3rd edition stuff into 2nd in the first place, there are PLENTY of 2nd edition kits to choose from (not to mention, pretty much all the existing kits are in dire-need of rebalancing). But, if they're going to bother doing it, they should do it right and make sure to capture the spirit of the class while trying to keep it's level of power as close to 2nd edition levels as possible. OR they should stick to actual 2nd edition kits, with their proper levels of power.
The shadow dancer is basically just a thief, who has sacrificed some thief utility and skills to learn a bit of Shadow magic from the illusion school, not full spell-casting mind, at least at first, but they know enough to tap the plane of shadows to fuel a couple tricks here and there. Like being able to pull the surrounding shadows around them, so they can attempt to hide while observed, or cloud an opponents vision. Eventually mastering it enough to call a shadow servant or to utilize shadow magic in a very limited sense to cast a spell or two once per day. It's really no different then what the monk kits currently do to the base monk. The backbone of the base class is still there, it just trades a few things for a few other things.
The dual-class restriction is mostly just to try and compensate for the fact that vanilla thieves are missing their lvl 10 scroll use ability (which only they get) and don't have exclusive rights to UAI as they should (since UAI (Thief) is just the upgraded version of that scroll use ability).
I've mentioned this before, but the HLA could use some reworking. Just limiting the HLA to only be available to certain kits (Assassins get assassination (can be selected more then once, like WWA) (or replace it with an improved poison weapon ability), Swashy get WWA, Thieves get UAI (and can use scrolls at lvl 10), Bounty Hunters get epic traps, Shadowdancer can buy additional daily use of their once per day abilities) would be FAR better imo.
(And bards as well, remove the traps (replace with more bard oriented stuff like lingering song which is an actual 2nd edition HLA), Bards get UAI, Jesters get an improved jester song (and have their missing bonuses/penalties applied), Skald get epic bard song (and their missing bonuses/penalties), and Blades get WWA (and their missing bonuses/penalties, and their song button disabled).
And the +1 saving throw bonus?
But while I like the flavor of the class, right now I'd rather have a mage/thief with many more options, that can cast a proper invisibility and a proper time stop.
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6348: Shadowdancer Tweak
A few changes have been made to the Shadowdancer kit to make it better fit its intended role. Here is its updated kit description (changes are highlighted in green):
SHADOWDANCER: Shadowdancers can harness the power of magic to increase their stealth abilities. Enigmatic and dangerous, these uniquely skilled Thieves are able to blend seamlessly into the shadows in ways that a normal Thief cannot, striking without warning—sometimes with supernatural speed.
Advantages:
– +10% bonus to Hide in Shadows and Move Silently.
– Hide in Plain Sight: A Shadowdancer may Hide in Shadows even while being observed.
– May cast Shadowstep once per day every 5 levels.
SHADOWSTEP: Step into the Shadow Plane and move for 7 seconds while others are frozen in time. The Shadowdancer cannot attack or cast spells while in the Shadow Plane.
– Slippery Mind: +1 bonus to Saving Throws.
Disadvantages:
– Alignment restricted to any non-lawful.
– May use Backstab ability, although for a lower damage multiplier than Thieves:
Level 1-8: x1 (no multiplier)
Level 9-17: x2
Level 18-24: x3
Level 25+: x4
– May only distribute 20 skill points per level (30 at level 1) among thieving skills.
– May not use Set Snare ability.
Prime Requisites For Dual-Classing: Strength, Dexterity, Charisma
What happens to the skill points I'm missing on my current Shadowdancer?
@Dee I'm not sure what made the change to the kit happen. This poll shows that the majority was in favour of not changing it.
As you can see from some posts on this forum my favourite character in BG is a rogue, a thief especially. I tried many variants in the past and can say it's wonderful that there can be such a difference between several bilds and combos (a F/T multiclass, an assassin, a M/T multiclass, a bounty hunter, a swashbucler) when the general direction stays the same (in this case all of them are thieves).
So understandably when the new kit arrived I was very excited and started to use him right off the bat. The emotions just overflowed. I couldn't stop liking his HiPS ability + backstab available right from the Candlekeep. I thought this was a new, not pestered way to play a thief. I've completed BG:EE with a Shadowdancer (using the Tresset's fix) and it was fun. I think back about it with pleasure.
A little later an information appeared on this forum about the alleged change in this kit with the next patch. Immediately, I didn't like this suggestion. I tried to reflect my point of view in several discussions. Then I created this poll to see what other people think.
And really the majority here voted they liked the kit in general. The voices about the OP nature of a Shadowdancer basically came from those who didn't intent to use this kit anyway. Of course, among those who used this kit there were people with different views. But, as @Basillicum correctly points out, this poll shows that the majority was in favour of not changing the basics of this kit.
The Devs gave us this kit, so they have every possible right to change it the way they want. Now it is clear this kit is seriously redone. Not only adding a cool-down timer but also changing his backstab progression so that "he is not a backstabber" completely changes my own attitude towards this kit: from "badass" to "I don't care I don't plan to use it".
Going back to your quote - personally I won't take it as you have done. The thing I liked about this kit the most now is killed.
Level 1-5: no mult
Level 6-12: 2x
Level 13-19: 3x
Level 20+: 4x
The class would be far more viable, and not broken - you can chain-stab with any thief-assassin given the proper gear (and this gear can be found way before the mid-point of BG2).
I'm sure for some that it's fun to play like that because I know that other people have fun boosting all their stats to 25 or importing previous characters so that they can start the game at lvl8 or whatever. Being able to brainlessly backstab at will with no consequence I'm sure had the same kind of appeal. At least though the other characters can be subject to a Hold Person or whatever! The SD isn't even susceptible to that.
Having played the new version of the kit, I really don't see the problem. For BG1 it's a good survivor and damage dealer since it essentially gets +4 to hit every round and can get away from enemy fire quite easily. HIPS gives you plenty of ways to lure enemies away to where you want them and mess about with mages while still giving good damage contribution. If anything, I think for the first game, it's probably the best kit even with a x1 backstab. If you just like backstabbing then I understand why you wouldn't like the new one....but mage/thief, fighter/thief, asssassin etc. are still there for all that backstabby goodness. Do we really need more? I think it's really good that they actually have provided a char which gives you a new way to play the game. The kit won't be for everyone but isn't it a positive thing that it's actually something different?
And you know, even as far as backstabbing goes, it will have its moments. How about lvl20: hide, backstab x3, shadowstep, backstab x3, shadowstep, backstab x3, shadowstep, backstab x3, shadowstep, backstab x3, hide -> whatever, x15 damage in the space of one round, with no consumables used. That's not bad.
Seriously, I've played the shadowdancer with the old kit, and it was not OP or invincible. Currently that shadowdancer is broken because along with the new changes his backstabbing multiplier is gone while the additional skill points are missing as well. I could add them with EE Keeper or something like, but unfortunately it won't be a perfect fix. Also, I prefer to avoid messing with my save game.
Unfortunately editing your save is really the only option because updates to the game aren't able to recalculate your current saves properly to conform to the new data, you generally keep stuff that you already attained on the character. It's the same with new mod updates. Don't think there's anything that can be done about it, best is just to continue the game on the previous patch version.
edit - I have a lot of experience with Shadowkeeper/EEKeeper so I can probably edit the save for you in the correct way if you're unused to it but I'm leaving to work so you'd have to wait. The backstab multiplier is in the affects tab so you have to get a char with backstab, find the correct affect and copy it over to your save game to apply it.
My feelings exactly!
@FrozenCells
That's it. "I have no such delay in my non-beta version." But in the beta version there is a cool down timer when you come out of of the shadows (or after a backstab), so you have to wait before you can hide again. Now it requires a wait instead of immediately turning invisible again.
So after hardly hitting an enemy (without or with a low backstab) you find your shadowdancer in the middle of the fight. The only exit is to use the Shadow Step but the number of its uses is limited and you won't rest after each fight. If the Shadow Step is not used, get prepared for a Magic Missile spell, a heavy hit with an arrow (you're without a helm and in a light armor, right?) and possible death. Other thieves can one-shot an enemy or/and lay some traps and lure enemies (the latter can seem even more tactical than a shadowdancer role).
No number of points put in HiS/MS guarantees a success with becoming invisible. This coupled with a low number of thieving points and low backstab multiplier even without a cool down timer didn't make the kit OP.