Should Shadowdancer's abilities stay the same?
JuliusBorisov
Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,760
It's my first attempt to arrange a poll but this is a subject I cannot give the go-by.
A Shadowdancer kit has been added to the game with the latest patch. Many (myself included) started to use him at once. I very much appreciate this kit has finally appeared in BG.
Currently a Shadowdancer has the following features.
May not wear armor heavier than studded leather.
May not equip shields larger than bucklers
May only use the following weapons: long sword, short sword, katana, scimitar, dagger, club, quarterstaff, crossbow, shortbow, dart, sling.
May only become Proficient (one slot) in any weapon class.
May only become Proficient (one slot) in any fighting style.
May only distribute 15 points per level (30 at level 1) in thieving abilities: Open Locks, Pick Pockets, Find Traps, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Detect Illusions.
May use Backstab ability for increased damage
Level 1-9: x2
Level 9+: x3
Hide in Plain Sight: A shadowdancer may hide in shadows, even when being observed.
Can cast Shadowstep 1x/day for every 3 levels
Slippery mind: +1 bonus to Saving Throws
Hit Dice: d6
The most controversial decision regarding this kit is probably his ability to become invisible as soon as he hit someone with a backstab attack and became visible without any time required to cooldown. The only exception is when he fails to hide in shadows.
I like this feature the most. For me, it has changed the gameplay as a thief drastically - it alone enhances this game as I like to play with stealthy characters.
For years we had to use the same tactics with backstabbers: hit > run > hide. With some knack and practice it's possible to find a place at any area where an enemy looses you from his sight for a second at least. In dungeons this is hardly a problem while outdoors there're at least one hurdle in any area. You just have to retreat, walk in circles, change directions and you'll have a chance. After you gain Boots of Speed this becomes much more easier but it's possible even without them if your enemy has a standard speed.
The system as it is now gives you a variety in tactics: if you've hid after the attack, you attack again and if you haven't hid after the attack you should retreat and hide elsewhere. The feature to hide after an attack is the main trait of this kit.
In my opinion, his low backstab multipliers (max x3 for the entire BG2)*, a small number of points available to distribute at the start and at each levelling up, inability to set traps, a chance that hiding fails (especially in the light) together make up for an excellent feature to use sneak attacks and chain backstabs.
I've fallen in love with this style as soon as I tried it for the first time.
But it turns out this is not a single point of view. Also, there appeaps to be some propositions for a patch. So I've decided to make a poll which probably can help to understand whether this kit has to stay the same or not.
I'm wondering what everyone else thinks?
*Now there's a bug about his multipliers in BG1 but it will be changed soon and won't make it to BG2:EE anyway.
A Shadowdancer kit has been added to the game with the latest patch. Many (myself included) started to use him at once. I very much appreciate this kit has finally appeared in BG.
Currently a Shadowdancer has the following features.
May not wear armor heavier than studded leather.
May not equip shields larger than bucklers
May only use the following weapons: long sword, short sword, katana, scimitar, dagger, club, quarterstaff, crossbow, shortbow, dart, sling.
May only become Proficient (one slot) in any weapon class.
May only become Proficient (one slot) in any fighting style.
May only distribute 15 points per level (30 at level 1) in thieving abilities: Open Locks, Pick Pockets, Find Traps, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Detect Illusions.
May use Backstab ability for increased damage
Level 1-9: x2
Level 9+: x3
Hide in Plain Sight: A shadowdancer may hide in shadows, even when being observed.
Can cast Shadowstep 1x/day for every 3 levels
Slippery mind: +1 bonus to Saving Throws
Hit Dice: d6
The most controversial decision regarding this kit is probably his ability to become invisible as soon as he hit someone with a backstab attack and became visible without any time required to cooldown. The only exception is when he fails to hide in shadows.
I like this feature the most. For me, it has changed the gameplay as a thief drastically - it alone enhances this game as I like to play with stealthy characters.
For years we had to use the same tactics with backstabbers: hit > run > hide. With some knack and practice it's possible to find a place at any area where an enemy looses you from his sight for a second at least. In dungeons this is hardly a problem while outdoors there're at least one hurdle in any area. You just have to retreat, walk in circles, change directions and you'll have a chance. After you gain Boots of Speed this becomes much more easier but it's possible even without them if your enemy has a standard speed.
The system as it is now gives you a variety in tactics: if you've hid after the attack, you attack again and if you haven't hid after the attack you should retreat and hide elsewhere. The feature to hide after an attack is the main trait of this kit.
In my opinion, his low backstab multipliers (max x3 for the entire BG2)*, a small number of points available to distribute at the start and at each levelling up, inability to set traps, a chance that hiding fails (especially in the light) together make up for an excellent feature to use sneak attacks and chain backstabs.
I've fallen in love with this style as soon as I tried it for the first time.
But it turns out this is not a single point of view. Also, there appeaps to be some propositions for a patch. So I've decided to make a poll which probably can help to understand whether this kit has to stay the same or not.
I'm wondering what everyone else thinks?
*Now there's a bug about his multipliers in BG1 but it will be changed soon and won't make it to BG2:EE anyway.
- Should Shadowdancer's abilities stay the same?89 votes
- Yes, I like the ability to re-stealth immediately after an attack is made and chain backstabs.26.97%
- Yes, but there can be more minor abilities.15.73%
- No, there should be some cooldown effect to prevent chain backstabs.30.34%
- No, but the changes should not be connected with his ability to hide after an attack.6.74%
- I don't care because I don't plan to use this kit.20.22%
Post edited by Dee on
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Comments
* Backstab caps at X3 at level 9.
* HIPS usable once per round max.
* No set traps.
It's a bit pointless to discuss how a shadowdancer should be, until people have tried it the way it is intended to be.
By this way, we keep the ability chain backstabs but at a moment it will be not possible to do it.
So we have to manage between the chain backstabs ability and the penalty at hide in shadow by using some other abilities like Shadowstep...
"No, this kit is too overpowered and it needs to be drastically nerfed".
Even with the proposed bug fixes, this kit is still a bit too powerful for my taste.
Maybe the views expressed here can be taken into account by the devs when they combine the details of the next patch. To talk about something is never malapropos. Especially if the subject is unsettled yet. The 5th option matches this answer. If you see this kit OP you don't plan to use it, right?
Shadowdancer is 3rd edition class not 2nd...
remember it's the name that i dislike not the class ability... if they change the name to 2nd edition class name(kits) then it's okey class in my eyes
I would love to see its bugs fixed, and a few minor bonuses or abilities would be good too. Like simple illusions like blindness, reflected image, blur, etc. as special abilities at later levels would be nice, augmenting his pseudo-magical nature.
I would also like to see disabling dual classing too. Shadowdancer is an extremely dedicated and narrow path, dualing into fighter or mage after maxing move silently to abuse HIPS makes the character overpowered IMHO. A shadowdancer can hide infront of enemies, but he can only attempt a weak backstab with bad THAC0. A SD dualled into fighter will have many attacks/round, weapon mastery, dual wielding etc. to make HIPS overpowered. Oh and a mage dual will be like having the Staff of Magi, cast a spell, HIPS, attack with a backstab, immediately cast another spell quickly and HIPS again before enemies reteliate.
I don't see any sense in declaring there's nothing to talk about. There's a lot to talk about.
If it was the other way round, there wouldn't be any sense in talking about BG2:EE before it's released or in talking about BG:EE before it was released. If it was the other way round, the point of this forum in its entirety would be in question.
An ability to hide immediately after an attack from the shadows cannot be called a bug at all. It's a feature that some people like and some don't. It's up to the devs to say the last word here but it's certainly up to the forum members to discuss if something should be done or not and how exactly everyone sees it ideal.
From my point of view even if there're some developments in this direction, they can be changed any time before the patch is out, even in the last minute. And what is written here (on the forum) can play a certain part in it.
@Fardragon Where are the developer quotes?
It can't be a bug to hide immediately after an attack since that's the whole point of the kit. If you mean *backstab - hide -backstab - hide* within a single round then fair enough, but I see nothing wrong with *backstab - hide - backstab*. But even in that case the developers MUST have known about this 'bug' since it's always been the case that stealth 'cooldown' only occurs when failing to hide successfully. Even regular thieves have the option to hide immediately after a backstab (though obviously, they automatically fail).
On a side note, I think you chose your poll options well. I knew how you felt about this issue from other threads, and came here kind of expecting to find biased options, but they're not at all, at least as far as I'm concerned.
If it's not limited to once a round, I could see how some would be concerned with it despite the low BS multiplier. Once you get to BG2:EE, the class will shine with SoS on most encounters, but useless on a few of the big baddies.
If it's like the way I described it, then most encounters aside from SCS Mages are going to be a breeze. HIS, let Minsc wade into battle, and just backstab all day. You'll clearly have the percentage of kills.
It seems like a cool class, but I can't really say if it's broken or not until I play around with the "real" version, which doesn't exist yet.
Yes, this issue is very important to me and the more activity on this forum about this subject the better. I didn't have assumptions what direction opinions would take in general, though. Now it seems (from the results of the poll) that I'm not alone in a point about keeping Shadowdancer's abilities.
Invisibility Potions are limited in number, Sandthief Ring is rather far from the start of the game and has a good price, the Invisibility spell is available only for multiclass thiefs, so all these things can't substitute HIPS entirely. This can be not so important if you use backstabs rarely but it really matters if in the main you use sneak attacks during the game.
Now I'd like to set the record straight about allegedly buggish character of the main trait of a Shadowdancer.
We have only the following:
Aosaw Post March 7 "There should be a cool-down period for stealth, even using HiPS. Is that cool-down not taking place?"
Aosaw Post March 7 "That's something we'll have to look at, then. Yes, that would definitely make the Shadowdancer more powerful than is necessary.
So, according to these words, a cool-down period for stealth must be in any case. But this general rule doesn't mean a Shadowdancer will loose an ability to hide immediately after an attack from the shadows - this new hiding can be done immediately after an attack but after a cool-down period from the previous hiding.
These words don't mean an ability to hide immediately after an attack from the shadows is a bug. These words only mean the devs will look at the feature and will seek variants. They didn't said anything certain.
Moreover, it's an opinion of one member of the BGEE team, there can always be other opinions in the team. For example, there had been different opinions about ranged APR before unified point of view was announced.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/16967/shadowdancer-too-op/p1 It's not specifically a Shadowdancer bug - there should be a cooldown for ALL thieves. It's just more obvious for shadowdancers. The developers where unaware that the cooldown wasn't working when they made the Shadowdancer kit.
I hope much more people have tried this kit and its abilities.
If you ask myself, I still think the HIPS ability is unique and fun to use, a real gem in the backstab routine.
Summon Shadow.
In BG:EE, it's fine due to the highly limited amount of skillpoints.
So, yeah, I think it should be changed.
As for BG2, it depends largely on what has been changed in BGEE2. IIRC there was an abundance of invisibility potions in the original as well as rings, and the staff of the magi. If things are still the same, it seems like they'd be under-powered and mediocre.
BTW...@bengoshi...shadow step is 1 per 5 levels with the first at level 5.
While there can be a point of view this change has stripped the OP of this class, personally I find it odd. This was the main feature of a shadowdancer kit. I liked every bit of it. This change, I think, somehow makes this kit useless. While a shadowdancer waits after a backstab, there's a big chance of something bad happening to him. And all this with only x3 backstab multiplier... The nasty mage won't die from the first backstab (due to the low damage), during the cool down period of the shadowdancer, this mage will cast some spell to end the shadowdancer's life.
Instead of a breath of fresh air we are coming to the old backstab routine, when you have to retreat after a backstab, or to gulp a potion, or to use a ring. The difference with other thieves is decreasing while the disadvantages of a shadowdancer kit are becoming too big.
I think this change is wrong.
Personally I like the shadowdancer kit, but found it rather weak. Hide in plain sight is the only advantage that he has. He should have less loss in thieves skill points IMO.
- Crap multiplier that stops growing before BG2 - meaning that during BG2, this class progression will literally just freeze up solid.
- No traps.
- Shitty skill growth with no offensive abilities like poison to make up for it
- It should get a Move Silently / Hide in Shadows bonus at level 1
- Its backstab multiplier should be the same as a stalker (level 1-8 = x2, 9-16 = x3, 17+ = x4). It makes no sense to limit it to x3.
- Some kind of cooldown should be included in Hide in Plain sight to balance the improved backstab multiplier and ensure that class is not stupidly overpowered in BG2.
Edit.: Heh, forgot I had already answered that thread
I don't plan to use the kit for this reason but I voted to keep the ability because I want there to be *some* reason for other people to use the class.
I guess I am. I'll give it a try after the patch to see if it changes my opinion but I have to admit on paper it doesn't sound useful enough to sway me.