I believe even in SCSII with modified Breach spell, it does go through SI:A, but not through other spell protections. Even in vanilla it shouldn't go through Spell Shield (but it does cancel it on hit).
The reason why everybody in SCS uses SI:A can also be seen in the spreadsheet, it is the only spell that protects against Dispel Magic and successful dispel leaves you vulnerable against everything except spells.
I believe even in SCSII with modified Breach spell, it does go through SI:A, but not through other spell protections. Even in vanilla it shouldn't go through Spell Shield (but it does cancel it on hit).
As I said, with component 2010 of SCSII 21, Breach does not pass though any spell protections, including SI: Abjuration. Later versions of SCS appear to be bugged and Breach affects liches, but still passes though spell protections (contrary to the description of the component).
Also, Khelben's Warding Whip and Secret Word remove Shield of the Archons just fine, both in vanilla and in SCS.
Reading through this thread has made me realise why I always struggle so much in BG2 when the heavy-duty magic starts flying around. I just don't have a clue what I'm doing. Generally, I just get Jaheira to release a swarm of insects and then hope for the best.
@Bercon - Thanks for the spreadsheet. It is really useful. I may well print it out to keep beside me next time I play (though I do fear that referring to a spreadsheet is going to make it feel a bit more like work than play to me).
The reason why everybody in SCS uses SI:A can also be seen in the spreadsheet, it is the only spell that protects against Dispel Magic and successful dispel leaves you vulnerable against everything except spells.
I don't feel altogether convinced by this. Generally you will be facing casters of significantly higher level than you for most of the game - using dispel against them tends to be very unreliable, with the exception of using unmodded inquisitors or unmodded Carsomyr. I don't know the exact odds, but trying to dispel a lich at level 13-14 would seem to require a whole lot of luck or a whole lot of reloading. At the very least dispel doesn't seem like such a threat that powerful casters should use SI:A so routinely.
You are right that Dispels are tricky if the level difference is high, but that's not a state that endures throughout the game; the buff-scripts need to work against low level parties just as well as against high level ones. Either way, SI:A is important because a successful Dispel will remove EVERYTHING in one stroke; whether it happened by luck at low levels, or by design at high levels doesn't really matter. It remains a powerful thing, and dampening such power a bit is what these mods are all about.
Also, though it may not be working currently, there is at least the intended option of having Breach stopped by SI:A as well. This further increases dispel complexity, and prevents quick victories. The scripted pre-buff defenses are not meant to be impenetrable; they are meant to slow things down, and offer more opportunity for interaction. What good are all those AI offensive capabilities when the fight is over too quickly?
You are right that Dispels are tricky if the level difference is high, but that's not a state that endures throughout the game; the buff-scripts need to work against low level parties just as well as against high level ones. Either way, SI:A is important because a successful Dispel will remove EVERYTHING in one stroke; whether it happened by luck at low levels, or by design at high levels doesn't really matter. It remains a powerful thing, and dampening such power a bit is what these mods are all about.
Possibly. But often the main purpose of defense stripping is to remove combat protections, and breach (under SCS) will strip those from all enemies anyway. So to me using dispel/remove magic rarely seems more efficient than using a spell protection stripper + breach (or pierce shield under spell revisions). Maybe it's just me having issues with spells that might work or might do nothing at all. It's true that the level difference evens out a bit later on, but then you also get access to spells like spellstrike that will remove all spell protections in one go.
Also, though it may not be working currently, there is at least the intended option of having Breach stopped by SI:A as well. This further increases dispel complexity, and prevents quick victories. The scripted pre-buff defenses are not meant to be impenetrable; they are meant to slow things down, and offer more opportunity for interaction. What good are all those AI offensive capabilities when the fight is over too quickly?
Yeah, but the intended option in vanilla is kind of moot since vanilla enemies will hardly ever use SI:A anyway, so it seemingly wouldn't have been used as a breach blocker even it if had worked. Under SCS it will be used a whole lot, which again seems like overkill with its main function being to stop breach, since other spell protections also stop breach under SCS.
Note that I'm not saying SI:A doesn't have a use though. It's just that in my experience it's used so often by SCS mages that I always figured there was a greater capacity to it.
So if other spell protections stop Breach as well, that means you have a whole layer of stacking effects to counteract your dispelling; Spell Shield for the anti-magic, Spell Trap for spells/Breach, and finally the combat protections that you cast those Breaches for.
In that case, SI:A makes total sense: you have stacked layers of defenses, so the one thing you absolutely want to avoid is all of them getting removed by a single spell (hitting through luck or level doesn't matter, really).
It would if all mages used them all I guess, but it seems to me in many cases spell trap would provide better protection (and more benefits) than SI:A, but yet it doesn't seem to be as popular a choice. Not to mention the SI:D and invisibility combo, though that's admittedly kind of cheap.
Again looking into this I'm not convinced it's realistic to expect that. Most of the liches in the game are level 25-30 for instance, which means that a mage at level 20 (well beyond the SoA level cap) will have at best a 10% chance of dispelling it, and that's assuming a dispel fix akin to the spell revisions one (http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=17799) has been installed. Otherwise the chance is likely 0.
A powerful non-lich mage like Tolgerias is level 21, so unless you wait until the very end of the game to do the planar sphere your odds of dispelling someone like him will be slim as well.
A bard can climb up levels so fast that his dispel magic will be very powerful. Also Inquisitor's dispel magic is very heavy too, and you can either recruit Haer'Dalis or Keldorn to utilise these. As a result, SI:Abjuration is essential for SCS mages to have.
I just don't see the problem here, really; low chance or not, surely having SI:A is preferable to not having it. Dispelling by fluke or by design, you don't want it to happen, period. It just negates too much of your carefully stacked protection shell in one go, so SI:A is an easy fix to prevent it.
I found something odd, and was hoping someone could corroborate. After finally finding some more time to play the game, I noticed that Secret Word seems to be behaving strangely. Of all the dispels I tried, it looks to be the only one that's actually completely stopped by Spell Immunity: Abjuration, i.e. it simply fizzles. All the other Abjuration-based dispels like Spell Thrust etc. will dispell the SI instead, but for some reason Secret Word just utterly fails.
Anyone else seen this behavior? Is it a bug, or am I simply missing some obvious detail? I am using SCSII of course.
Another issue: Breach does not seem to be dispelling Mantle, Improved Mantle and Absolute Immunity for me. Tested with enemies as well as party members. PfMW or Stoneskin are dispelled just fine, though. Bug? Mod interference? Something else?
So far, the only differences to the "original" spell that I know of are:
- it is instant - it is "lvl0" - it's 2x as powerful (or 1.5/1 depending on settings in the SCSII mod)
Everything else is the same. You can't use it while silenced, for example, and it is still an Abjuration-type spell and will be stopped by Spell Immunity: Abjuration.
I remember the strategy guides for SoA and ToB having a guide for spell protection/dispel. i think that was the only use i got out of it other than the cheats.
About the Breach spell in SCS, I checked it out in BG:EE+SCSII24, Minor Spell Deflection correctly blocked Breach i.e. spell ineffective, combat protections intact and spell deflection depleted.
I removed the notes because the new beta patch has them fixed. Mirror Images doesn't affect area damage and MGoI descriptions no longer mention dispel magic being able to bring it down.
Comments
I believe even in SCSII with modified Breach spell, it does go through SI:A, but not through other spell protections. Even in vanilla it shouldn't go through Spell Shield (but it does cancel it on hit).
The reason why everybody in SCS uses SI:A can also be seen in the spreadsheet, it is the only spell that protects against Dispel Magic and successful dispel leaves you vulnerable against everything except spells.
Also, Khelben's Warding Whip and Secret Word remove Shield of the Archons just fine, both in vanilla and in SCS.
@Bercon - Thanks for the spreadsheet. It is really useful. I may well print it out to keep beside me next time I play (though I do fear that referring to a spreadsheet is going to make it feel a bit more like work than play to me).
Also, though it may not be working currently, there is at least the intended option of having Breach stopped by SI:A as well. This further increases dispel complexity, and prevents quick victories. The scripted pre-buff defenses are not meant to be impenetrable; they are meant to slow things down, and offer more opportunity for interaction. What good are all those AI offensive capabilities when the fight is over too quickly?
It's true that the level difference evens out a bit later on, but then you also get access to spells like spellstrike that will remove all spell protections in one go.
Yeah, but the intended option in vanilla is kind of moot since vanilla enemies will hardly ever use SI:A anyway, so it seemingly wouldn't have been used as a breach blocker even it if had worked. Under SCS it will be used a whole lot, which again seems like overkill with its main function being to stop breach, since other spell protections also stop breach under SCS.
Note that I'm not saying SI:A doesn't have a use though. It's just that in my experience it's used so often by SCS mages that I always figured there was a greater capacity to it.
In that case, SI:A makes total sense: you have stacked layers of defenses, so the one thing you absolutely want to avoid is all of them getting removed by a single spell (hitting through luck or level doesn't matter, really).
A powerful non-lich mage like Tolgerias is level 21, so unless you wait until the very end of the game to do the planar sphere your odds of dispelling someone like him will be slim as well.
Anyone else seen this behavior? Is it a bug, or am I simply missing some obvious detail? I am using SCSII of course.
For example, does it treat SI: A or other things differently?
- it is instant
- it is "lvl0"
- it's 2x as powerful (or 1.5/1 depending on settings in the SCSII mod)
Everything else is the same. You can't use it while silenced, for example, and it is still an Abjuration-type spell and will be stopped by Spell Immunity: Abjuration.
Great sheet! Tnx!
About the Breach spell in SCS, I checked it out in BG:EE+SCSII24, Minor Spell Deflection correctly blocked Breach i.e. spell ineffective, combat protections intact and spell deflection depleted.