What is with Armour Class being a negative number? (And general questions)
Franpa
Member Posts: 637
Edit: I don't mean to antagonize or generate hostility between me and anyone else, I don't mean to upset fanatics of the original game system. I'm a novice and am just curious why the game still, to this day sticks to this weird seemingly confusing system.
I assume this is the reason for it (Correct me if I'm wrong):
When something buffs Armour Class it lists it as a positive buff prefixed by a + symbol, even though it lowers your armour class and if something debuffs your Armour Class then it is prefixed with a - symbol even though it raises your Armour Class.
Now, I believe it works this way because stats on items are de/buffing the dice you roll to determine if an attack hits, misses or crits and Armour Class is a representation of the difference between you and Armour Class 0? (This explanation of mine doesn't make sense, if someone wants to elaborate on it/rectify it that would be nice)
I dunno, I'm sure there's some kind of BOARD GAME reason behind how it is currently set up, but from a computer game perspective I can't see how it adds any value to the experience other then making things needlessly confusing. Can't the positive/negative status of Armour Class be reversed so that positive values on gear is good and have a positive effect on AC? That way the positive/negative values on gear make SENSE and it afaik has zero impact on the gameplay unless you're playing with a Board and real dice.
Also, save throws and stuff, are positive numbers good for them? Or negative? Seems odd to have one system where positive numbers are good and the underlying system is easy to understand and another system where positive numbers are good, but they have a confusing negative impact on a stat.
I assume this is the reason for it (Correct me if I'm wrong):
When something buffs Armour Class it lists it as a positive buff prefixed by a + symbol, even though it lowers your armour class and if something debuffs your Armour Class then it is prefixed with a - symbol even though it raises your Armour Class.
Now, I believe it works this way because stats on items are de/buffing the dice you roll to determine if an attack hits, misses or crits and Armour Class is a representation of the difference between you and Armour Class 0? (This explanation of mine doesn't make sense, if someone wants to elaborate on it/rectify it that would be nice)
I dunno, I'm sure there's some kind of BOARD GAME reason behind how it is currently set up, but from a computer game perspective I can't see how it adds any value to the experience other then making things needlessly confusing. Can't the positive/negative status of Armour Class be reversed so that positive values on gear is good and have a positive effect on AC? That way the positive/negative values on gear make SENSE and it afaik has zero impact on the gameplay unless you're playing with a Board and real dice.
Also, save throws and stuff, are positive numbers good for them? Or negative? Seems odd to have one system where positive numbers are good and the underlying system is easy to understand and another system where positive numbers are good, but they have a confusing negative impact on a stat.
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If you're interested in trying out 3rd edition, I'd recommend Icewind Dale 2, especially if you're enjoying Baldur's Gate, as they have many things in common.
Edit: It doesn't help that each line of stats is prefixed with a Dash, so you end up with --5 or -+5 for the first stat on each line... Doesn't Baldur's Gate 2 make use of a rule set more suited for a computer game?
In 3rd Edition they wisely scrapped they system in favor of an Ascending AC system. But Baldur's Gate was created in the 2.5 rules, so its why we have to deal with it. Thankfully since its a computer game, we don't need to deal with all the charts personally.
At this point, updating the rule system in BGEE/BG2EE to 3E/3.5E/4E/Next would require a complete re-write of the game content to insure proper balance and party progression. Basically, THAC0 − AC = roll needed to hit. "+" is used for bonuses, even though a bonus to armor class lowers it. Probably something psychological about people not understanding or liking a "negative bonus". Dave Arneson (co-creator of Dungeons & Dragons) adapted an Armor Class system he'd developed for an naval combat game called Ironclads to Dungeons & Dragons. Ironclads also had a descending AC system, so, D&D inherited from there.
As to why they implemented the AC system for BG, its simple: They were creating a game based on AD&D; so, they used AD&D rules. The D&D/AD&D descending AC system was also so ingrained at the time that many CRPGs also implemented similar armor systems (e.g. The Bard's Tale, Wizardry). Even if Baldur's Gate hadn't been an official AD&D game, it still could likely have used descending AC in 1998.
The problem is occasional poorly written item and spell descriptions. Especially adapting stuff over from PNP. Something could conceivably be a plus or minus to a die roll, or a plus or minus to an armor class, with opposite results. Many descriptions are inconsistent or unclear in their terminology. The player just needs to be aware of if something is a good or bad effect. Its not that hard to figure out from there.
A very common such error is anything that gives you a plus to hit, shows up as lowering your Thaco. Well in PNP it makes perfect sense to add your plusses to your die rolls. But on the computer it can look a little awkward to see the Thaco going down instead.
I love 2E and I wouldn't want to see any other system in use. But I do agree a lot of descriptions were not as clear as they could have been.
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Still cant decipher THAC0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number
In my own PNP game I run 2E for a variety of reasons; but which way armor classes run is a non-issue.
All characters start with a base armor class (AC) of 10, plus any modifiers applied for high dexterity, armor, etc. To attack a character you roll a D20 (just as you did in 2ND edition), and add your base attack bonus (BAB), plus any modifiers for high attributes, magical weapons etc. If your total roll (die value + attack bonus) meets or exceeds the opponent's armor class, you strike with your weapon. If it's less, you miss.
Like 2ED, a natural die roll of 1 always misses. A natural die roll of 20 always hits, and might result in a critical hit (you have to roll a second time, and if the second roll hits, it's a critical).
I assume that's easy to accomplish if you're familiar with editing the game files, however I'm unsure if you'd need to edit every single items description individually to accomplish it which would make the task pretty tedious.
If I'm wrong about all this then please explain what I've missed/assumed wrongly.
Edit: I may have misinterpreted what you said.
THAC0 = To Hit Armor Class 0. this is the value you need to hit someone. You subtract the victims' AC from your THAC0 to see how easily you hit the victim.
For example: No AC bonuses:
THAC0 = 19, Enemy AC = 10; that means you have to roll higher than a 9 to hit the victim.
Same with negatives.
AC -6:
THAC0 = 10. Enemy AC = -6; that means you need to roll higher than a 16 to hit the victim.
Weapons that have +'s in front of them subtract from your THAC0 as well.
So, same situation as before with a +2 longsword.
THAC0 = 10, Enemy AC = -6; You need to roll higher than a 14 now to hit the victim.
This is before going into proficiency points.
Edit: And thanks for the clarifications of how THCA0 works, it's appreciated. I do find this a little hard to comprehend but not impossible, just takes a bit of effort to wrap my head around it whenever I return to the game.
It is exactly "how maths works!".
Low armor class, and low THAC0 are good things. what I do not like about the newer editions is how at the end of the game you have around 70 AC, and THAC0 is non-existent. I prefer the smaller numbers.
THAC0 and AC work the same and yield smaller numbers to work with than 3rd or 4th edition.