@JonSnowIsAlive Like all romances, there is a point where what has previously been camaraderie/friendship can develop into something more. It will be fairly clear when this happens, and you have a variety of options for how to respond.
If you choose a negative response/turn them down, the NPCs in question will not bother you with romantic intentions again, just like canon BG2 romances.
@kamuizin Just to clarify, I am not linking his bloodlust and homosexuality, simply saying that they are both integral parts of his personality. You may not have read that into the character, but I can tell you it's there, as much as his bloodlust.
Alignment is also specified at character creation and it does not prevent it to change as the story unfolds. With all due respect, why couldn't that be done with sexual orientation?
Alignment and sexuality are two different things. Alignment is something that the player HAS to choose during character creation because it is related to PnP rules, like gender and class character. Sexuality is something that the player CAN decide at his will during the game. We can argue that in Baldur's Gate the alignment could be more flexible à la Neverwinter Nights, where your alignment can change on the strength of your action, but the parallelism you proposed has no sense.
ANYWAY, instead of speaking about homophobia, disable gay button and such, why don't we talk about our expectations and hopes about same sex relationships in BG2EE?
@Aedan: Agreed - even in-game, that comparison makes no sense. It's not like you can't get a reputation of 20 even if you're Chaotic Evil. It's not like you can't be a Lawful Good Paladin and have Viconia, Edwin, Dorn, Kagain and Shar-Teel as your party members. Alignment doesn't prevent any content from activating (and even if it did, there's always the Helm of Opposite Alignment...)
Getting back on topic: I'm hoping Dorn's romance in BG2:EE is a bit more expansive. For now, I'm willing to handwave the initial disparity between the three love interests as a matter of personality rather than gender (ie: Neera is openly flirtatious, and both Rasaad's and Neera's BG:EE romances end with a gesture of physical affection, but Dorn's backstory justifies a more reserved approach).
For me, it comes down to innovative RP experiences. When the EE was first announced, I was intending to recreate my original playthrough with an all-female Evil/Neutral party (a much easier thing to do in BG1 than BG2, but that's another story). And the one thing I never got to do in the original was a romance storyline, because after one exchange with Anomen I removed him from my party and hit him with a Disintegrate spell (good thing he failed his saving throw, or that would've been very anticlimactic). Dorn seemed like a perfect match for my Neutral Evil PC.
Then the devs revealed he was available to male characters as well, and I remember my exact reaction to that news: "Whoa, a romance between an evil elf sorcerer and an eviler half-orc blackguard? R.A. Salvatore wishes he'd thought of that first." So I dropped the all-female concept, redesigned my PC as a man, and completed the BG:EE portion of the romance (although I had to check the console to make sure it was actually done - the dialogue at the end could have been a bit clearer). And it was... well, okay, I guess. To be honest, I'm more interested in the implications for BG2:EE: is Bodhi going to try and snatch Dorn? Am I going to have to fight a half-orc vampire blackguard? Is he connected to Gromnir il-Khan? Will his ending change depending on my final choice in ToB? Lots of potentially interesting opportunities for the new NPCs to make their marks.
I did not expected that the bisexual character was Dorn. When I discovered it, I was pleased: I think that it is a great novelty. Some talks based on character gender would be nice, though. Dorn could say something to male CHARNAME that he would never tell to female CHARNAME (and viceversa). This would offer the opportunity to discover something new about him when the player romances him again but with a character of a different gender. Also, if the relationship started in BGEE evolves in something more real in BG2EE, I would like to discuss with Dorn about this. Since Faerun is not Ferelden and people are not used to homosexuality, the player could ask Dorn if he fears people judgment. I already imagine the answer: "If someone dares to call us Sissies, I'll make him bleed before he finished to speak!"
@shawne Try to imagine Dorn introducing his male lover to his brother!
Dorn: Hrmm. Well, brother, this is my boyfriend CHARNAME. CHARNAME, this is my brother, Gronmir. Male Charname: Hi there! Grnomir: What? Since when you like men, Dorn? Oh, wait - now I get it! This is a conspiracy! You pretend to be gay and leave me puzzled so that you can kill me, but I WILL KILL THE BOTH OF YOU FIRST!
@Aedan: @LadyRhian had a post a while back where she asked Ed Greenwood himself for his input on sexuality in Faerun. Thus Spoke Ao:
Yet matters sexual are seldom the “big deal” in the Realms that it is in any real-world area dominated by one faith, where clerics of that faith presume to tell others “how to behave.” The polytheistic nature of the Realms is one reason for this, and another is the D&D® game itself, that with its array of sentient races, presents what some would call “bestiality” or other terms for “coupling with other races” as a fait accompli (otherwise, there would be no “half-elves” or “half-orcs”).
So in that sense, Faerun and Ferelden are actually pretty similar in that there's no word for "gay", "bisexual" or "straight" in their respective lexicons. Your choice in partner is seen as personal rather than categorical/genetic. So if Dorn's presenting a male CHARNAME to Gromnir, I'm thinking the latter's reaction might be more along the lines of "Oh crap, he's bagged a Bhaalspawn. I'm doomed."
@shawne I have already read LadyRhian quote in the past (very interesting) and I agree that the words "gay", "bisexual" or "straight" are out of place in the FR - I just wanted to be funny
I personally don't care to have a "on/off button" added for romances of any kind. However, in the interest of fairness, I also don't see the point of a gore button in a game that has scenes that aren't horribly sickening. Yet the gore button exists in many games with less blood than a random action movie. I don't see the harm in having the button. However I do like the idea of giving your character a sexual preference during character creation as it could change dialog choices for certain characters during gameplay. Straight, gay, or bisexual characters flirting with some, shutting down others, being shut down when they try flirting with someone who is not of a compatible sexuality... Realistic. Then again I am also a supporter of putting in Viconia as originally intended. (Provided that bit about her having gender flags for her romance conversations is true.) Bisexual. Just like Ashley was intended in Mass Effect, as shown by her vocal files for a female romance.
On the other hand, I actually *like* having all romance-able characters as bisexual in games. I am straight myself, but my lesbian cousin and the other lesbian friends I have often have the problem of "falling for the straight girl". That sucks. You already have that problem in reality, let you not have that problem in a game. But making it as ridiculous as Anders... Well, *that* was the flaw with DA2 making everyone bi, not that everyone was bi, but that you could actually start a romance with a character even if you *didn't* press a heart option. I know. I *never* pressed a heart option on Anders and still ended up in a "relationship" with him, because when I went for Isabel or Merril, there was the whole section where I had to "dump" Anders, even though I'd never touched a heart. Awful.
*Edit*
To be even more clear:
Do I think people are being over sensitive when they can't handle a party member even approaching them with the *option* of a romance?
Yes.
Do I also think people are going overboard with shutting down a just as optional (and thereby hypocritical) button in the menu to turn that off?
Yes.
Do I also happen to think that Anders in particular was a ridiculous romance and only played as a female Hawke forever after that so I could let him down nicely while still being tolerant to him? (Much like how I was pissed that not being in a relationship with Ashley in Mass Effect pretty much ended our conversations together as if we couldn't just be friends?)
Yes.
Am I homo-centric? *NOT* homophobic?
Yes.
Is being homo-centric normal?
Yes.
Further explanation for that last answer:
Unless you see someone as flamboyant, or have some other source of information that makes you think a person is homosexual, you're pretty much going to assume that they're straight. The majority of people are. That's just a simple numerical equation. No need to invent a term for a normal assumption. Not that being homosexual is abnormal, normal in the sense that you assume that an unknown is a part of the majority rather than the minority. And to be even more clear and unoffensive, minority meaning numerical, not in some kind of bad marginalizational way.
I didn't look at the date when I posted. Just came across this thread when looking for a mod on google.
As for gore/blood =/= romance... the point was that people get the option to shut off things that offend them, whether it makes sense to me/you or not. It just didn't seem to make sense to me that one would be okay but not the other. At least as long as there was an option button and not a removal from the game entirely. After all, it's just as arrogant for us to "force" someone to have to deal with a romance plot as it is for them to "force" us not to have it. Having it, but leaving it optional (whether through dialogue or menu options) is the happy neutral way to go. Who cares how they have the option, as long as it's there?
This is an old thread, the point you make has been made before, and the inherent problems your suggestion would pose have been laid out very clearly. For more information, please read pages 3-6 of this discussion.
Comments
If you choose a negative response/turn them down, the NPCs in question will not bother you with romantic intentions again, just like canon BG2 romances.
Alignment is something that the player HAS to choose during character creation because it is related to PnP rules, like gender and class character. Sexuality is something that the player CAN decide at his will during the game. We can argue that in Baldur's Gate the alignment could be more flexible à la Neverwinter Nights, where your alignment can change on the strength of your action, but the parallelism you proposed has no sense.
ANYWAY, instead of speaking about homophobia, disable gay button and such, why don't we talk about our expectations and hopes about same sex relationships in BG2EE?
Getting back on topic: I'm hoping Dorn's romance in BG2:EE is a bit more expansive. For now, I'm willing to handwave the initial disparity between the three love interests as a matter of personality rather than gender (ie: Neera is openly flirtatious, and both Rasaad's and Neera's BG:EE romances end with a gesture of physical affection, but Dorn's backstory justifies a more reserved approach).
For me, it comes down to innovative RP experiences. When the EE was first announced, I was intending to recreate my original playthrough with an all-female Evil/Neutral party (a much easier thing to do in BG1 than BG2, but that's another story). And the one thing I never got to do in the original was a romance storyline, because after one exchange with Anomen I removed him from my party and hit him with a Disintegrate spell (good thing he failed his saving throw, or that would've been very anticlimactic). Dorn seemed like a perfect match for my Neutral Evil PC.
Then the devs revealed he was available to male characters as well, and I remember my exact reaction to that news: "Whoa, a romance between an evil elf sorcerer and an eviler half-orc blackguard? R.A. Salvatore wishes he'd thought of that first." So I dropped the all-female concept, redesigned my PC as a man, and completed the BG:EE portion of the romance (although I had to check the console to make sure it was actually done - the dialogue at the end could have been a bit clearer). And it was... well, okay, I guess. To be honest, I'm more interested in the implications for BG2:EE: is Bodhi going to try and snatch Dorn? Am I going to have to fight a half-orc vampire blackguard? Is he connected to Gromnir il-Khan? Will his ending change depending on my final choice in ToB? Lots of potentially interesting opportunities for the new NPCs to make their marks.
Also, if the relationship started in BGEE evolves in something more real in BG2EE, I would like to discuss with Dorn about this. Since Faerun is not Ferelden and people are not used to homosexuality, the player could ask Dorn if he fears people judgment. I already imagine the answer: "If someone dares to call us Sissies, I'll make him bleed before he finished to speak!"
@shawne
Try to imagine Dorn introducing his male lover to his brother!
Dorn: Hrmm. Well, brother, this is my boyfriend CHARNAME. CHARNAME, this is my brother, Gronmir.
Male Charname: Hi there!
Grnomir: What? Since when you like men, Dorn? Oh, wait - now I get it! This is a conspiracy! You pretend to be gay and leave me puzzled so that you can kill me, but I WILL KILL THE BOTH OF YOU FIRST!
Yet matters sexual are seldom the “big deal” in the Realms that it is in any real-world area dominated by one faith, where clerics of that faith presume to tell others “how to behave.” The polytheistic nature of the Realms is one reason for this, and another is the D&D® game itself, that with its array of sentient races, presents what some would call “bestiality” or other terms for “coupling with other races” as a fait accompli (otherwise, there would be no “half-elves” or “half-orcs”).
So in that sense, Faerun and Ferelden are actually pretty similar in that there's no word for "gay", "bisexual" or "straight" in their respective lexicons. Your choice in partner is seen as personal rather than categorical/genetic. So if Dorn's presenting a male CHARNAME to Gromnir, I'm thinking the latter's reaction might be more along the lines of "Oh crap, he's bagged a Bhaalspawn. I'm doomed."
I have already read LadyRhian quote in the past (very interesting) and I agree that the words "gay", "bisexual" or "straight" are out of place in the FR - I just wanted to be funny
On the other hand, I actually *like* having all romance-able characters as bisexual in games. I am straight myself, but my lesbian cousin and the other lesbian friends I have often have the problem of "falling for the straight girl". That sucks. You already have that problem in reality, let you not have that problem in a game. But making it as ridiculous as Anders... Well, *that* was the flaw with DA2 making everyone bi, not that everyone was bi, but that you could actually start a romance with a character even if you *didn't* press a heart option. I know. I *never* pressed a heart option on Anders and still ended up in a "relationship" with him, because when I went for Isabel or Merril, there was the whole section where I had to "dump" Anders, even though I'd never touched a heart. Awful.
*Edit*
To be even more clear:
Do I think people are being over sensitive when they can't handle a party member even approaching them with the *option* of a romance?
Yes.
Do I also think people are going overboard with shutting down a just as optional (and thereby hypocritical) button in the menu to turn that off?
Yes.
Do I also happen to think that Anders in particular was a ridiculous romance and only played as a female Hawke forever after that so I could let him down nicely while still being tolerant to him? (Much like how I was pissed that not being in a relationship with Ashley in Mass Effect pretty much ended our conversations together as if we couldn't just be friends?)
Yes.
Am I homo-centric? *NOT* homophobic?
Yes.
Is being homo-centric normal?
Yes.
Further explanation for that last answer:
Unless you see someone as flamboyant, or have some other source of information that makes you think a person is homosexual, you're pretty much going to assume that they're straight. The majority of people are. That's just a simple numerical equation. No need to invent a term for a normal assumption. Not that being homosexual is abnormal, normal in the sense that you assume that an unknown is a part of the majority rather than the minority. And to be even more clear and unoffensive, minority meaning numerical, not in some kind of bad marginalizational way.
2. You resurrected a five-month-old thread to say that?
3. For your first post?
As for gore/blood =/= romance... the point was that people get the option to shut off things that offend them, whether it makes sense to me/you or not. It just didn't seem to make sense to me that one would be okay but not the other. At least as long as there was an option button and not a removal from the game entirely. After all, it's just as arrogant for us to "force" someone to have to deal with a romance plot as it is for them to "force" us not to have it. Having it, but leaving it optional (whether through dialogue or menu options) is the happy neutral way to go. Who cares how they have the option, as long as it's there?
WE should be able to have as many partners as WE want!