@Vargnatt well yes i was hoping dorn would avoid some of the evil cliches you describe and introduce something interesting to the evil playground.
@shawne MY expectations how dorn's character and plot should be is one thing, and i realize it's just my own opinion, the one i've seen nothing here to disprove, but "that was our intention" argument i accept since it comes from higher instance although even if it doesn't sit well with me. and that is what we can lump under perspective argument.
bringing content on par with old romances is another thing and while i didn't expect dorn to get pregnant and whine endlessly, i expected him to develop his thing, shallowness, flatness, whatever it is. IMO, aerie romance is crappy and cliche, yes, BUT it develops, it has content to build progressive relationship and it is consistent. i would not dare to claim the same for dorn.
@trinit, the sun is yellow – it’s not a cliché it’s the natural order. And for evil there is natural order as well. If character does something that is out of his evil-alignment perspective he is no longer evil. Changing alignment wasn’t intended for Dorn so he must behave himself as his evil-alignment intents. If you wanted him to become less evil for charname – sorry, he doesn’t want. And he would become less evil if he started to care for charname (more than he already does) or told the story of his bad childhood (not saying it would be much more cliché) and so on.
I'm not done with the romance. I kind of gave up on it after reading this thread, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. I get the complaints that there isn't a separate "godhood ending" for Dorn - I think that is fair criticism. But folks expecting more romanticism or the ability to "turn" Dorn... Well, that's what makes this a well-written romance.
He's evil. Really evil. He doesn't do romance, he isn't interested in changing his ways. He likes power. From what I've seen, he'll let you get closer to him than he has allowed others in the past (or since he's been burned), but that doesn't mean he's going to change. Just like real life: The bad boy isn't going to change just because you want him to.
@Vargnatt i'll repeat myself again- i did not expect dorn to redeem, turn or otherwise change alignment. i hope that is clear now. when i say i hoped dorn to introduce something new to the evil playground and/or to avoid evil cliches i mean i hope to see some evolution WITHIN the concept of evil alignment. i would hope you are not suggesting that people cannot be selfish evil monsters in pair/relationship. "twisted love" expression comes to mind. i don't think this would be so much out of character for dorn, there are many hints in that direction in the existing game dialogue.
@rdarken i'm not sure about your playstyle, but i would encourage you to play the romance until the proper end. this entire thread is mostly my opinion and you might like it very much in the end.
@trinit, the “twisted love” concept is present. If it wasn’t there wouldn’t be any romance at all. If you want more of it (well, I want more as well – I like Dorn) – wait for mods or some DLCs/expansions or whatever. The actual romance track is short but not without the “twisted love” concept.
I didn't abandon forever. I still want to see more of Hexxat so that alone is reason to go back to it. But I also want to see Neera and Rasaad so I flipped back to good for the moment.
i went through dlg and found some dialogs for SOA i've never seen in my game...
@LiamEsler could you please clarify where these talks come from and what are the conditions for them...?
1)You've proven your worth to me, . Would that I could say the same for these others.
2)You need not fear the horrors to come, . You've proven your worth. Would that I could say the same for these others.
never seen those, he demands sacrifice of companion...
3) I knew you were the one, . I knew it from the first moment I laid eyes upon you. Together we are as gods... The Abyss will tremble and the heavens fall before us!
short but also no idea where this comes from or what does it reference.
I think I actually had number 3 on my playthrough. It seems really familiar. I think it might be a response during one of his romance dialogues. Maybe the one after his personal quest is over?
[spoiler]I freed Dorn and killed both outsiders, which maybe and something to do with it?[/spoilers]
i did the same thing but got only the dialogue with
he is free at great cost. i'm certain i never got that "you the one" talk, even with different outcomes. is it possible to be in a committed romance and do his quest at all?
I'm 80% sure I got that line *somewhere*, but the remaining 20% might win out. Maybe its an option that only arises if you've picked specific lines in earlier conversations?
I might be misremembering. I'm just fairly certain i heard it at some point.
I think I had third as well and in my playthrough he was serving Azotet. Mb you can get it if you always chose "yes, I will ascend and share my power with you"-responses? Looking on
"HE demands sacrifice of companion"
it seems that we can see it if Dorn stays serving Ur-Gothoz
it's dorn that wants the sacrifice, not patron, that much can be seen from further responses, because dorn wants to seal unholy union with charname. (that are 1 and 2 talks). besides,these are all SOA talks, sharing power comes later in TOB.
i wonder if this is some omitted talk, it is fully voiced also. maybe something modders could use for bodhi scene if dorn gets kidnapped and resurrected? seems to fit the mood.
as for third one i wouldn't know, i tried all the outcomes, but never got this. maybe if it shows later in the game in reference to something? although it doesn't seem like it...
@trinit, something like the third line definitely was at ToB for me oO or there is some similar dialogue and I messed them up As for other two - I looked over TLK and it looks like they are referring to the events at the Resurrection Gorge (Azothet's dead before summoning Ur-Gothoz). Then there is third line - near mentioning of powerless Dorn. I've got save at the Resurrection Gorge so I've tried to cause that lines but it seems they were cut. It looks like second sacrifice was needed to summon Ur-Gothoz after Azothet.
@Vargnatt yes, it's true its probably that dialogue is bound to ressurection gorge and summoning process, and it does seem cut out...
far fetched, but maybe dorn wanted charname as a patron? he mentions unholy union between them? it would be great if somebody ( like @LiamEsler ) confirmed or disproved.
Honestly I thought the Charname as Patron was what pretty much all the dialogue in Dorn's romance was leading up to, from BG1 through ToB. Especially his first romance dialogue in ToB.
I'm really shocked that his romance ending requires you not to ascend. If anything Dorn's romance should have been 'ascend with romance' and 'not ascend breaks romance'.
Honestly I thought the Charname as Patron was what pretty much all the dialogue in Dorn's romance was leading up to, from BG1 through ToB. Especially his first romance dialogue in ToB.
I'm really shocked that his romance ending requires you not to ascend. If anything Dorn's romance should have been 'ascend with romance' and 'not ascend breaks romance'.
That's exactly what I was hoping for, so epilogues quite surprised me.
Rather, that was just Dorn's way of creating a blood bond between the two of you; it's about your relationship, and not your power. That could be made clearer, I agree.
I didn't write the epilogues, so I can't comment on those, but I did have to work within them.
@LiamEsler do you know what are the conditions for getting that lovetalk/interjection? the one with sacrificing companion because charname has proven himself/herself, not the last talk in TOB before facing melliasan. is it in the game at all?
i mean, the lines for that talk can be found within SOA part of dialogue.
still, too bad, it is an interesting talk not focused on power at least. i hope modders will do something with it/them or use the recorded voice to make something new with it...
@Shandyr: I don't think Dorn values freedom in itself so much as he doesn't like the options he's got: Ur-Gothoz is sending him on suicide missions and he doesn't know Azothet from a hole in the ground. But by ToB, he trusts the Bhaalspawn completely (all the moreso if you're romancing him) - so of course he'd forfeit his newfound freedom for a chance to serve a master he knows won't turn on him.
It's all a matter of perspective - take Aerie's romance as a comparison point. It's simplistic and cliche: she's the textbook Wilting Flower Damsel In Distress, whose romance requires that you avoid casual intimacy which she initiates, and the first time you do have sex, she gets pregnant. Is that what Dorn's romance should have looked like?
... ... YES. Particularly if Dorn is the one who gets pregnant!
Comments
@shawne MY expectations how dorn's character and plot should be is one thing, and i realize it's just my own opinion, the one i've seen nothing here to disprove, but "that was our intention" argument i accept since it comes from higher instance although even if it doesn't sit well with me. and that is what we can lump under perspective argument.
bringing content on par with old romances is another thing and while i didn't expect dorn to get pregnant and whine endlessly, i expected him to develop his thing, shallowness, flatness, whatever it is. IMO, aerie romance is crappy and cliche, yes, BUT it develops, it has content to build progressive relationship and it is consistent. i would not dare to claim the same for dorn.
He's evil. Really evil. He doesn't do romance, he isn't interested in changing his ways. He likes power. From what I've seen, he'll let you get closer to him than he has allowed others in the past (or since he's been burned), but that doesn't mean he's going to change. Just like real life: The bad boy isn't going to change just because you want him to.
@rdarken i'm not sure about your playstyle, but i would encourage you to play the romance until the proper end. this entire thread is mostly my opinion and you might like it very much in the end.
Sorry. Back to the thread's subject.
Move along.
@LiamEsler could you please clarify where these talks come from and what are the conditions for them...?
1)You've proven your worth to me, . Would that I could say the same for these others.
2)You need not fear the horrors to come, . You've proven your worth. Would that I could say the same for these others.
never seen those, he demands sacrifice of companion...
3) I knew you were the one, . I knew it from the first moment I laid eyes upon you. Together we are as gods... The Abyss will tremble and the heavens fall before us!
short but also no idea where this comes from or what does it reference.
[spoiler]I freed Dorn and killed both outsiders, which maybe and something to do with it?[/spoilers]
i did the same thing but got only the dialogue with
I might be misremembering. I'm just fairly certain i heard it at some point.
and btw, if ANYBODY knows the conditions for those talks i would very much appreciate it.
i wonder if this is some omitted talk, it is fully voiced also. maybe something modders could use for bodhi scene if dorn gets kidnapped and resurrected? seems to fit the mood.
as for third one i wouldn't know, i tried all the outcomes, but never got this. maybe if it shows later in the game in reference to something? although it doesn't seem like it...
As for other two - I looked over TLK and it looks like they are referring to the events at the Resurrection Gorge (Azothet's dead before summoning Ur-Gothoz). Then there is third line - near mentioning of powerless Dorn. I've got save at the Resurrection Gorge so I've tried to cause that lines but it seems they were cut. It looks like second sacrifice was needed to summon Ur-Gothoz after Azothet.
far fetched, but maybe dorn wanted charname as a patron? he mentions unholy union between them? it would be great if somebody ( like @LiamEsler ) confirmed or disproved.
I'm really shocked that his romance ending requires you not to ascend. If anything Dorn's romance should have been 'ascend with romance' and 'not ascend breaks romance'.
I didn't write the epilogues, so I can't comment on those, but I did have to work within them.
i mean, the lines for that talk can be found within SOA part of dialogue.
still, too bad, it is an interesting talk not focused on power at least. i hope modders will do something with it/them or use the recorded voice to make something new with it...
But the new npcs are imo terrible compared to the old ones (that is a hard competition since they are great)
That made me really mad!