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Why Comet? Why Dragon's Breath?

TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
edited December 2013 in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
I probably just duplicated an existing thread yet again, but I want to know...

So why exactly do we have both Dragon's breath and Comet? They are basically the same thing only one is far superior to the other (well maybe not that much but you get the idea). Now before all of you smarty pants pseudo-trolls go: "Why do we have either when there is Improved Alacrity?" I would like to seriously consider this question for a moment... These spells are so similar and yet one has such an advantage over the other it really makes me wonder what the original devs were thinking when they put both these spells in the game. Almost makes me think they were like: "I think comets are cooler!" "Oh yeah? Well I think Dragon's Breath cooler!" and they couldn't decide which one to include so they just tossed both in there made one better because reasons.

Thoughts anyone?

Tresset's Comet mod can be found here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/27351/tresset-had-a-whim-improved-comet-mod
Post edited by Tresset on
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Comments

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
    Note to self: Modding Comet may make Saradush really annoying...
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    edited December 2013
    Comet definitely suffers a bit in vanilla. The Spell Revisions mod evens it out somewhat by making comet unaffected by magic resistance, giving it a long knockdown time and making it deal crushing damage. It also alters Dragon's Breath to deal 20d6 of damage.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    IMO, Comet should have been half crushing damage, half fire.
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    Yes, I think the crushing damage is the key here.

    Any chance we'll get new mage HLAs? Maybe an Ice/Lightning/Acid version of Dragon's Breath for Dragon Discipile.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
    edited December 2013
    bbear said:

    Any chance we'll get new mage HLAs? Maybe an Ice/Lightning/Acid version of Dragon's Breath for Dragon Discipile.

    @bbear That would be cool and very easy for me to do.

    What would not be easy for me to do is putting all the different breath spells in the spell book at the same time.

    Edit: And I would also not know how to change the appearance of the spell...
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,725
    These spells are different and you should choose which you are going to use depending on the situation.

    Often I prefer Dragon's breath, for 3 reasons.

    1. Does more damage than Comet (with a "save for half" clause, so against most enemies there's practically no difference, but still, in theory it can do more damage)

    2. Instant demilich killer

    3. Can hurt highly resistant magical opponents

    And I find it funny when Dragon's Breath does tons of damage to dragons.

    But Comet is nice when you want to target only a single enemy, when you want to take foes one by one.

    Moreover, it's faster. While you have to wait for the dragon's head to appear before the fireball casts, Comet is virtually instantaneous.

    So, I use both these spells.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
    I was actually thinking of making Comet's damage part cold because an actual comet is an icy space ball. Of course that is probably not very realistic, even for a game in which you can make a comet strike the earth and not cause a mass extinction...
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    I'd like to see it part cold, to differentiate it more from Dragon's Breath.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    I think it's more like a gate spell where you gate a comet onto your opponent, so it's just a really cold chunk of ice that smacks him. If it was actually coming from outer space you'd have to wait a long time for it to arrive and then get out of the way as it vaporized everything in the area...
  • RyofuRyofu Member Posts: 268
    edited December 2013
    Are these spells worth using? i normally just use energy blades or summon planetar/deva for those very limited level 9th spell slots
  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 877
    SpaceInvader said:

    Well... When a comet enters the Earth's atmosphere, it goes from traveling through a vacuum to traveling through air. Traveling through a vacuum is effortless, it takes no energy. Traveling through air is another story.
    A meteor moving through the vacuum of space typically travels at speeds reaching tens of thousands of miles per hour. When the meteor hits the atmosphere, the air in front of it compresses incredibly quickly. When a gas is compressed, its temperature rises. This causes the meteor to heat up so much that it glows. Re-entry temperatures can reach as high as 1650 degrees C! Can't really see any cold damage here :p

    You live up to your name, literally. That's informative, thank you. But as to cold damage, I'm sold on @nano's idea.
  • Xei_Win_TohXei_Win_Toh Member Posts: 43
    Comet: 10d10 damage, save or be stunned
    Dragon's Breath: 20d10 damage and knockback, save for half damage and no knockback

    Given that enemies by the time you can actually cast those spells (and have level 9 slots NOT taken by Time Stop) should make their saving throws some 90% of the time, I'd rather have the small chance of stunning rather than knocking enemies back (which messes up positions) and doing some more damage (which will easily be compensated by my fighting dudes against a stunned enemy)
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,185
    Yeah, comet probably works something like this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcGC2byVmoA
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    I'd personally prefer Comet if it weren't for MR concerns. 90%+ of the time, your opponent will make the save on Dragon's Breath, Comet's damage has no save, and has a Save-or-Suck attached to it, Dragon's Breath just knocks the enemy over.

    As it is, Dragon Breath's MR ignoring abilities alone just unbalance the whole game in its favour. If you wanted to equalise them, Comet ignoring MR as well (if you're gating in a literal hunk of ice then that's not something resistable in the first place) would place the two abilities pretty well neck and neck (one deals more damage, one stuns for 1-4 rounds).
  • Xei_Win_TohXei_Win_Toh Member Posts: 43
    Dragon's Breath ignores MR? This, I did not know. (shows how much I care about my mages, eh)
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    Afaik both Comet and Dragon's Breath ignore MR. The difference is mainly in damage type, which helps against enemies resistant to certain types of damage (particularly fire).
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    I didn't think they were actually comets... I thought they were just summoned big hot rocks that fell on baddies.
    Also for me the casting time is important, so that is an equalizer.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited December 2013
    Mmm... Funny.
    I just opened the file SPL of Comet and there's no stun effect in it, only a wing buffet and sleep.
    Reported, #7295.
  • MikeMike Member Posts: 65
    bengoshi said:

    These spells are different and you should choose which you are going to use depending on the situation.

    Often I prefer Dragon's breath, for 3 reasons.

    1. Does more damage than Comet (with a "save for half" clause, so against most enemies there's practically no difference, but still, in theory it can do more damage)

    2. Instant demilich killer

    3. Can hurt highly resistant magical opponents

    And I find it funny when Dragon's Breath does tons of damage to dragons.

    But Comet is nice when you want to target only a single enemy, when you want to take foes one by one.

    Moreover, it's faster. While you have to wait for the dragon's head to appear before the fireball casts, Comet is virtually instantaneous.

    So, I use both these spells.

    Dragon's Breath is an "Instant demilich killer" ? I wish I would've known this during the Kangaxx altercation... Rage quit this battle sooo many times...
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
    SpaceInvader said:

    Mmm... Funny.
    I just opened the file SPL of Comet and there's no stun effect in it, only a wing buffet and sleep.
    Reported, #7295.

    @SpaceInvader I noticed it too, but I thought to myself: "Sleep, stun, Same difference, right?"

    I also noticed that comet has the exact same wing buffet effect as dragon's breath. Dragon's breath also has a sleep effect but it lasts for only half a round as opposed to comet's 3 round sleep effect. That's right, comet does not stun for 1d4 rounds as per the description but actually 3 rounds every time. I reported that to J so she can update the description.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
    Pantalion said:

    I'd personally prefer Comet if it weren't for MR concerns. 90%+ of the time, your opponent will make the save on Dragon's Breath, Comet's damage has no save, and has a Save-or-Suck attached to it, Dragon's Breath just knocks the enemy over.

    As it is, Dragon Breath's MR ignoring abilities alone just unbalance the whole game in its favour. If you wanted to equalise them, Comet ignoring MR as well (if you're gating in a literal hunk of ice then that's not something resistable in the first place) would place the two abilities pretty well neck and neck (one deals more damage, one stuns for 1-4 rounds).

    You are right of course. Comet's damage is affected by MR but Dragon's Breath damage is not. It does not appear that any of the other effects from either spell are blocked by MR. I will definitely take this into consideration when I mod Comet.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
    Well, have my Comet mod ready. Didn't change a whole lot but I would like to know what people think of my changes. I have two basic ideas about what to do here to make this spell on par with Dragon's Breath:

    1. 15d10 damage (no save, no MR) 4 rounds stun + knockback (save vs. death to avoid, no MR).

    2. 10d10 damage (no save, no MR) 1 round stun + knockback (no save, no MR)

    I could also partition the damage between fire and crushing or maybe also cold (if we don't care about realism here) on either # 1 or # 2 if that is suggested.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    @Tresset I replied to your post on the Redmine :)
  • RoananRoanan Member Posts: 18
    I still prefer Improved Alacrity over either of the two. With the Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power, it's pretty much ridiculous. I mean who needs Time Stop when you can cast everything all at once anyway? :D
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
    Roanan said:

    I still prefer Improved Alacrity over either of the two. With the Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power, it's pretty much ridiculous. I mean who needs Time Stop when you can cast everything all at once anyway? :D

    Ah, there it is. I was starting to get worried that this kind of thing wouldn't show up.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
    Mod is ready. In the end I figured I may as well do this:

    10d10 fire damage and 5d10 crushing damage (no save, no MR)
    Knockback and 1 round stun (no save, no MR)

    I will post the mod in the modding section and link this to there.
  • RajickRajick Member Posts: 207
    Ok comets summoned to the planet could move at the speed of light due to magic so it should vaporize a large area and instant kill anyone who doesn't make a save vs death and save vs fire at the same time. That would make sence in a logical way but this is d&d rules not everything is logical
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