A note on Dakkon's Zerth Blade as off-hand… in my current play through, if/when she gets confused/stunned/otherwise out of control, it seems to count the weapon as being unequipped so she loses the last spell slot in each circle. I therefore suggest using the last slot of each spell circle for your 'first in-first out' spells… pre-battle buffs like stoneskins, etc… rather than any 'just in case' spells which you'll be really pissed to lose mid-battle.
A note on Dakkon's Zerth Blade as off-hand… in my current play through, if/when she gets confused/stunned/otherwise out of control, it seems to count the weapon as being unequipped so she loses the last spell slot in each circle. I therefore suggest using the last slot of each spell circle for your 'first in-first out' spells… pre-battle buffs like stoneskins, etc… rather than any 'just in case' spells which you'll be really pissed to lose mid-battle.
I had a similar incident with the meta spell amulet, a bit odd and annoying
If I could, and I could divide attacks neatly between them, it would be the Answerer and the Soul Reaver. Every hit get either -2 THAC0 penalty or -2 AC and -15% MR.
Mmmmm.
As it is:
Purifier + Hindo's Doom - No nonsense 40% MR + Death immunity. Hindo's goes nicely in any offhand slot really, proficient or not. Foebane + Axe of the Unyielding +5 - 13 HP recovered per turn is quite nice, if you're maining Foebane, and the rest of the time Axe in the main hand gives one of the best one handed weapons out there. Monk Fist + Scarlet Ninjato - Yeah, it's the only way a Monk's going to get more attacks per round, and 5 APR with a 1D20 "+4" fist is an average 50+ damage per round coming out of your pretty well immortal monk, which is nice. Answerer + Crom Faeyr/Angurvadal/Belm - The Answerer is probably the best weapon in the game. Anything to help it hit harder, better, faster, or stronger is naturally awesome.
The Answerer is probably the best weapon in the game. Anything to help it hit harder, better, faster, or stronger is naturally awesome.
While the Answerer definitely has upsides, it is FAR from the best weapon in the game. Why? Simply because it deals so little damage compared to other weapons. Lowering AC is nice and all, but that very quickly reaches a point where you'd have hit with other weapons anyway and are simply doing very little damage per swing. Taking the occasional miss with a harder-hitting weapon will ultimately yield much more effective damage dealt. The same goes for the MR penalty, to an extent: rather than lowering someone's MR, it is far more efficient to just kill them by other means that don't care about MR.
It's great that you like certain weapons and that's a personal preference no one will fight you over. But please don't perpetuate "this is the best weapon in the game" unless you are CERTAIN and WILLING TO BACK THAT CLAIM UP. I'm neither, and I do a hell of a lot of theorizing. Most people just tend to skim over info and when they see something like "this is the best X" it sticks to their memory, true or not; don't assist in spreading ignorance and blanket-statement gullibility.
Assuming my Wizard Slayer had Grand Mastery in Longswords for The Answerer, I would have a Thac0 of -2 in Combat. As you naturally point out, no matter how many times my Wizard Slayer hits the target, chances are my Wizard Slayer will be hitting with or without said debuff.
That said, the rest of my party is somewhere between Thac0 4-5 and Thac0 8 (shakes fist at Useless Yoshimo). They would all benefit from some degree from The Answerer, the more hits you get, the FtC rate increases (Faster to Chunk). Things that get chunked faster = fewer spells needed etc, which is overall a good thing. Against something like a dragon or "Big Bad" this might in fact turn out fairly decently. EXCEPT!
Argument against the Answerer:
My Wizard Slayer is level 13, the rest of the melee (except Anomen and Yoshimo) are 11 or 12. And that presents the glaring weakness with the effectively armor reduction of The Answerer. Its usefulness has an inverse correlation to party level. The weapon is less useful for a party with average level 20 (Rough SoA cap), rocking various +3 to +5 weapons, beginning to swim in spells and with numerous strength enhancing items. And you will be even farther along than that when you gain access to the weapon.
In retrospect:
If you could acquire The Answerer on the first or second level of Watcher's Keep, you would have an EXTREMELY powerful longsword on your hands, just due to how early you could acquire it. Gaining something, both with that level of enchantment (+4) and with such a great early game debuff attached to it, it COULD completely change the face of a lot of more physical damage oriented parties. Instead though it is a weapon that you get once you're already in Throne of Bhaal, at which point most parties are looking at the early to mid 20s. Compared to other weapons at the time, on top of what your warrior class thac0 would be, The Answerer is left as a rather disappointing weapon.
You know, I always wanted to dual wield people. Just try to imagine Dorn while dual-wielding two svirfneblins from the Underdark, for example. Halfings would also be an interesting weapon choice, although I do personally consider them to be more potent as throwing weapons.
Non, Non. Dwarves ain't throwing weapons @Dragonspear: they are ROLLING weapons! Their bellies make them excellent for bowling enemies down the ground. And weren't both elves and half-elves considered large weapons? Wouldn't it make more sense if you cut one in half and then dual wield both ends? However, it's also true that I'd love to see someone dual wielding beggars or miners.
I'm too shy to go around without my shirt on, even though I'm a guy, so no. I was pretty much referring to whatever I'd have on my off-hand. And main-hand would be basically anything else.
In a total fantasy dream world where dual-wielding would be vastly improved though, I'd dual-wield Usuno +4 and Yamato +4. Being a total ninja-like bad-ass with powerful weapons.
The Answerer is probably the best weapon in the game. Anything to help it hit harder, better, faster, or stronger is naturally awesome.
While the Answerer definitely has upsides, it is FAR from the best weapon in the game. Why? Simply because it deals so little damage compared to other weapons. Lowering AC is nice and all, but that very quickly reaches a point where you'd have hit with other weapons anyway and are simply doing very little damage per swing. Taking the occasional miss with a harder-hitting weapon will ultimately yield much more effective damage dealt. The same goes for the MR penalty, to an extent: rather than lowering someone's MR, it is far more efficient to just kill them by other means that don't care about MR.
It's great that you like certain weapons and that's a personal preference no one will fight you over. But please don't perpetuate "this is the best weapon in the game" unless you are CERTAIN and WILLING TO BACK THAT CLAIM UP. I'm neither, and I do a hell of a lot of theorizing. Most people just tend to skim over info and when they see something like "this is the best X" it sticks to their memory, true or not; don't assist in spreading ignorance and blanket-statement gullibility.
Perhaps 'tis not self evident, but whenever I say anything, it's because it is, in fact, my opinion, not objective fact, at least untilo
4.5 damage average, assuming no elemental resistances or magic resistance, is hardly "so little damage" considering you're already dealing sizeable amounts of punishment whatever weapon you're wielding.
But where the Answerer shines is as a force multiplier. If one hit with the Answerer means 10% of your partymate's melee or ranged damage hits where they otherwise would have missed, then the Answerer is directly responsible for 10% of your total party's damage:
Viccy with Everard and 21 Strength = 15.5 damage per hit. Anomen with 22 Strength and Flail of Ages = 31.5 damage per hit.
That's 4.7 damage over just two characters.
Even they'd have hit on a 3, now they hit on a 2 that's still accounting for a percentage of your party's entire combat damage per round. With five people swinging each of those "best weapons" up there once per round, then the Answerer at 5% is accounting for an extra 7.5 damage a turn. If one of them is swinging the Axe of the Unyielding, then the Answerer has suddenly developed a 1% Vorpal effect. The more attacks your party get, the better the Answerer is.
On top of that, however, is a 15% MR debuff. This not only helps mages in terms of ensuring they can get their spells through, but it saves them from needing to cast spells to do so, meaning more slots of domination.
The Answerer is also one of the only ways by which you can bring MR from 100 to nothing in a single round. Improved Haste plus 3 1/2 Answerer Critical Strikes means 7 hits for -15% MR each. Now the Answerer is 100% responsible for the damage dealt by, for example, the 20D6 (70 damage) Skull Trap the mage flung out to save slots for something more important.
And even when you've actually made your hits and rendered their AC/MR utterly useless, it's still working to your benefit, and boosts any other weapon you pull out afterwards too.
So again, yeah, by virtue of making every other weapon in the game better, it's the best weapon in the game, though like most of the best spells it won't show up on your statistics page.
The Flail of Ages +4's slow effect is a near second, but the lack of MR reduction and only 33% chance of application (plus non-stacking) do pose a limit on its force multiplication potential. The save penalty is fabulous though.
Viccy with Everard and 21 Strength = 15.5 damage per hit. Anomen with 22 Strength and Flail of Ages = 31.5 damage per hit.
That's 4.7 damage over just two characters.
So you gain 4.7 damage by using a weapon that's 5.5 damage lower than the highest sword on your list (Foebane). Isn't that exactly what I was talking about? Just use the higher damage weapon and take a miss or two, you'll still end up with more.
Besides, that "10%" of yours is completely arbitrary. Values are contingent on individual party THAC0s and individual enemy ACs, which can vary greatly. Not to mention that your Answerer has to hit by itself in the first place, before anything happens.
I'm not disputing that the Answerer can be a valid choice in certain scenarios. The higher enemy AC and the lower party THAC0, the better it gets. If you construct a party of very weak characters with terrible THAC0s, the Answerer will become very good. That's why there are no "absolutes" in this game - it all depends on your setup. However, the Answerer also scaled directly with the number of physical damage dealers present, which in turn means the average party tends to have better THAC0s (assuming people prefer physical damage on classes better suited to it, on average). So while there is no conclusive data, I'd say that there are very strong indicators that the Answerer's AC advantage is not as good as you think, because party THAC0s aren't terrible (on average) and the better they are the less important the AC malus becomes.
On top of that, however, is a 15% MR debuff. This not only helps mages in terms of ensuring they can get their spells through, but it saves them from needing to cast spells to do so, meaning more slots of domination.
The Answerer is also one of the only ways by which you can bring MR from 100 to nothing in a single round. Improved Haste plus 3 1/2 Answerer Critical Strikes means 7 hits for -15% MR each. Now the Answerer is 100% responsible for the damage dealt by, for example, the 20D6 (70 damage) Skull Trap the mage flung out to save slots for something more important.
While this may be true theoretically, in practice I do not think this is a likely scenario. So you have someone with high MR, but you are already merrily hitting it with your sword? Why do you need the spells, then? Spells have terrible DPT due to their one-per-round restriction, reaching high values only in AoE scenarios. You are not going to go around debuffing 10 enemies in turn so you can Horrid Wilting them, that's just not reality. And against single enemies, once your weapon hits are already connecting, what do you need the magic for?
What enemy gets hit by 7 consecutive hits but requires magic to defeat? And just to be clear: those 70 damage from a Skull Trap is *very* low. It is all your mage's damage for the ENTIRE round. Look at your list above: three hits (of up to TEN/round with +APR weapons and IH) with any of the good weapons up there already top that, without a chance to be interrupted, and without worrying about MR - after all, your premise is already that your weapon hits connect easily, so why bother with spells? Just smack away with strong weapons and ignore the MR.
Mages are best used for their supportive spells. Buffs like IH, dispels like RRR, that sort of thing is what you need; Magic Missile & Co. are not (outside of AoE). Outside of a few fringe scenarios (and some cheeses), damage magic is fairly useless. One of the exceptions is Dragon's Breath, since it's virtually instant, high level (against Liches etc.), and does more than just damage (knockback). Oh and it also ignores MR, so there's that.
So, again, you can definitely construct scenarios in which The Answerer shines - but only because you set it up that way. In an average setup using non-braindead strategies, it is not a very good weapon. And if you don't assume people playing properly, well, then ANYTHING can be the "best" weapon in the game.
So you gain 4.7 damage by using a weapon that's 5.5 damage lower than the highest sword on your list (Foebane). Isn't that exactly what I was talking about? Just use the higher damage weapon and take a miss or two, you'll still end up with more.
Disingenuous. 0.8 damage difference and only using two characters out of six.
Besides, that "10%" of yours is completely arbitrary. Values are contingent on individual party THAC0s and individual enemy ACs, which can vary greatly.
You've also stripped out context by skipping over paragraphs where I've indicated 5% as an alternative.
However you are correct, ACs can vary greatly, and the advantage it can supply also varies greatly. This is why I assumed that one in every twenty swings is going to hit just a little further down, but you've missed the point, 4.5 damage brings you neatly in line with the other "best" weapons in the game in terms of damage, and that's with two clerics hitting once each per round.
The upper limit to Foebane is against a Vampire, at which point it's 36 average damage per hit or so.
The upper limit to the Answerer is mutable. The harder your target is harder to hit or hurt, the Answerer is better.
And if your target isn't dangerous in the first place, then it's not dangerous enough for Answerer's lower damage to matter, at which point you're arguing about what's better at dealing with chaff.
Not to mention that your Answerer has to hit by itself in the first place, before anything happens.
Nonsensical statement. This applies to every weapon, the Answerer, however, makes every future hit more likely.
However, the Answerer also scaled directly with the number of physical damage dealers present, which in turn means the average party tends to have better THAC0s (assuming people prefer physical damage on classes better suited to it, on average). So while there is no conclusive data, I'd say that there are very strong indicators that the Answerer's AC advantage is not as good as you think, because party THAC0s aren't terrible (on average) and the better they are the less important the AC malus becomes.
Correct, if a character hits on a 2, then Answerer does not provide a benefit. For any target with an AC of -10 or better, the Answerer supplies at least a 5% damage bonus to all the physical damage dealers in your party that do not have a -10 to THAC0, because 1 more swing in 20 will connect.
Since physical damage dealers also frequently attack multiple times per turn, the force multiplication continues to improve. If the target can be hit on a 5+, then two Answerer hits is an extra 4 hits in every twenty that will connect, increasing a 75% damage chance to a 95% damage chance.
While this may be true theoretically, in practice I do not think this is a likely scenario. So you have someone with high MR, but you are already merrily hitting it with your sword? Why do you need the spells, then? Spells have terrible DPT due to their one-per-round restriction, reaching high values only in AoE scenarios. You are not going to go around debuffing 10 enemies in turn so you can Horrid Wilting them, that's just not reality. And against single enemies, once your weapon hits are already connecting, what do you need the magic for?
Why not use magic, if your mage is just going to be twiddling their thumbs tossing darts anyway? The faster you end a combat, the less time you're playing ToB, and it's not like you were going to use that level 3 spell slot anyway before you rested. Having tactical options isn't irrelevant just because you didn't bother to use them.
What enemy gets hit by 7 consecutive hits but requires magic to defeat? And just to be clear: those 70 damage from a Skull Trap is *very* low. It is all your mage's damage for the ENTIRE round. Look at your list above: three hits (of up to TEN/round with +APR weapons and IH) with any of the good weapons up there already top that, without a chance to be interrupted, and without worrying about MR - after all, your premise is already that your weapon hits connect easily, so why bother with spells? Just smack away with strong weapons and ignore the MR.
By that logic, what weapon matters anyway? It's all mantles and immunities, clearing the path for your mages to end or trivialise the encounter with single spells.
You've also stripped out context by skipping over paragraphs where I've indicated 5% as an alternative.
5% is just as arbitrary. Where are you getting those numbers from? I doubt there's any way to realistically supply any fixed value, at best a function with party THAC0s and enemy ACs as the variables. Not very informative, though it illustrates well the contingencies involved.
However you are correct, ACs can vary greatly, and the advantage it can supply also varies greatly. This is why I assumed that one in every twenty swings is going to hit just a little further down, but you've missed the point, 4.5 damage brings you neatly in line with the other "best" weapons in the game in terms of damage, and that's with two clerics hitting once each per round.
Again with the arbitrary assumptions! You can't just take random numbers, calculate data from them, and then use that to "prove" a point. Anecdotes are not evidence. If anything, look at the systemic factors involved. My contention is that The Answerer's value can be expressed as a function of party THAC0 and enemy AC (as mentioned earlier), and that it does not surpass the damage values of alternative weapons in the majority of cases.
And if your target isn't dangerous in the first place, then it's not dangerous enough for Answerer's lower damage to matter, at which point you're arguing about what's better at dealing with chaff.
That would be equating "dangerous" with "hard to hit-roll against", which is entirely inaccurate. In fact, the most dangerous enemies in the game hands down are spellcasters, which are often very easy to make to-hit rolls against (= low AC). Their defenses are not based on AC. In fact, AC is not a huge factor in this game at all, and doesn't progress nearly as dramatically as other enemy stats. Even enemies at the end of ToB have very fair ACs (Melissan is -8, Abazigal is -12 and so is Demogorgon - and they are as tough as it goes) making them fairly easy to hit for accomplished fighters. But of course it's not hard to compose parties with terrible THAC0s, which will benefit more from The Answerer...
Correct, if a character hits on a 2, then Answerer does not provide a benefit. For any target with an AC of -10 or better, the Answerer supplies at least a 5% damage bonus to all the physical damage dealers in your party that do not have a -10 to THAC0, because 1 more swing in 20 will connect.
Considering how few enemies actually have that low an AC, 5% does not seem a lot. At 30 average damage, 5% is 1.5 damage. So you would need 3 other damage dealers with THAC0s worse than -10 just to break even with using a better weapon (going by your list from earlier). Again my point: it works in a party of bad THAC0s, but the average player won't make all his physical damage dealers in a way that leaves their THAC0s in a poor state. Any fighter gets to a base THAC0 of 0, without kit bonuses, proficiency, weapon bonuses, gear, buffs, etc. Surpassing -10 is trivial. And of course, that's against super-highly armored enemies; as I said earlier, not even the end boss of the entire game has a -10 AC.
Why not use magic, if your mage is just going to be twiddling their thumbs tossing darts anyway? The faster you end a combat, the less time you're playing ToB, and it's not like you were going to use that level 3 spell slot anyway before you rested. Having tactical options isn't irrelevant just because you didn't bother to use them.
You're right, it's not irrelevant. But having options isn't automatically better, because it comes at a cost. If your mage is sitting by idly, for starters, that's not playing well. As I said before, it's easy to deliberately play in a way that favors your argument, you can't use that as comparison or justification. Ask instead, what would the mage do against a MR opponent? Cast summons? Use support spells? And what happens if the mage instead uses Lower Resist for himself, while you wail away with a more powerful weapon? That can easily be higher damage overall, especially considering that you're already assuming easy hits which makes The Answerer's AC drain worse if not irrelevant. Not to mention that this is a highly hypothetical scenario; there are few enemies I can remember that can be hit easily with weapons, have high MR, and are meaty enough to still be standing after a round of melees wailing on them unimpeded. What monster did you have in mind there, exactly?
By that logic, what weapon matters anyway? It's all mantles and immunities, clearing the path for your mages to end or trivialise the encounter with single spells.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Enemies still have to be killed, and they don't simply keel over when their protections are gone. In fact it's often important that you do as much damage as possible before they can put them back up again, which is why high APR and high damage weapons are so important. Granted you won't see much of that in low difficulty games because things die so quickly - but that doesn't change the argument. A weapon dealing 1000 damage is still worse than a weapon dealing 10000 damage, even in a world where everything only has 100hp. Exaggeration, of course, but do keep in mind that due to the nature of BG and the prolific modding scene, values can differ greatly. I know from my own experience that I treasure every point of damage. Many a "Near Death" Lich has owned me hard before I could put it down...
@Pantalion and @Lord_Tasheron: I'd like to compliment you both on your debate so far. You've both been very courteous; it's like you're both interested in something and, despite your strong, divergent viewpoints, you haven't belittled the other party. Bravo!
I mean this as sincerely as it can be interpreted. To that end, I shall now attempt to liven the debate:
OMG BGTutu iz btr than BGEE money-grobbing Beemdog.
1: 5% is just as arbitrary. Where are you getting those numbers from? I doubt there's any way to realistically supply any fixed value, at best a function with party THAC0s and enemy ACs as the variables. Not very informative, though it illustrates well the contingencies involved.
Since I'm at work, arbitrary, conservative statements and base mathematics is about all you're going to get. You're welcome to datamine up a few enemy stat blocs however, for the purpose of performing comparative analysis on them.
2: Again with the arbitrary assumptions! You can't just take random numbers, calculate data from them, and then use that to "prove" a point. Anecdotes are not evidence. If anything, look at the systemic factors involved. My contention is that The Answerer's value can be expressed as a function of party THAC0 and enemy AC (as mentioned earlier), and that it does not surpass the damage values of alternative weapons in the majority of cases.
I'm not attempting to prove anything except that the Answerer's damage is extremely competitive with most of the "best" weapons, which is in response to your initial claim that the Answerer does so little damage it cannot compete. I have highlighted a few examples and figures demonstrating how easy it is for the Answerer to match said damage if there is so much as a single point in difference between a target's AC and a character's THAC0.
I will persist that Answerer is the best Longsword however, the Angurvadal's fire damage is regularly resisted, and its 22 Strength is adequate, but replaceable, and certainly not vital for a mainhand weapon.
3: That would be equating "dangerous" with "hard to hit-roll against", which is entirely inaccurate. In fact, the most dangerous enemies in the game hands down are spellcasters, which are often very easy to make to-hit rolls against (= low AC). Their defenses are not based on AC. In fact, AC is not a huge factor in this game at all, and doesn't progress nearly as dramatically as other enemy stats. Even enemies at the end of ToB have very fair ACs (Melissan is -8, Abazigal is -12 and so is Demogorgon - and they are as tough as it goes) making them fairly easy to hit for accomplished fighters. But of course it's not hard to compose parties with terrible THAC0s, which will benefit more from The Answerer...
Full Plate = 1 AC. -3 against Slashing. Dexterity 18 = -3 AC. Ring of Protection +2 = -5 AC. Helm of Glory = -6 AC Golden Girdle = -13 AC against Slashing.
If you are not sporting a THAC0 of -12, then you are benefiting from the Answerer by 5% or more.
Dorn with a +6 Greatsword is 0 - 3 - 6 - 1; a THAC0 of -10, and benefits with 10% more hits, same as Keldorn with a 19 Strength belt.
These guys are also either GWWing or IHing five hits a round, which all benefit from the Answerer.
4:
As I said earlier, not even the end boss of the entire game has a -10 AC.
A weapon dealing 1000 damage is still worse than a weapon dealing 10000 damage, even in a world where everything only has 100hp.
Feel free to insert ludicrous AC figures instead of HP, but you've summed up my position rather well.
5: What would the mage do against a MR opponent?
Note that MR applies to a few important non-mage features, such as Foebane's +4 Laloch's damage, which I do believe is MR restricted.
5a: Cast summons?
Sure. Answerer boosts Summons too. The more allies you have fighting, the better Force Multiplication gets.
5b: And what happens if the mage instead uses Lower Resist for himself, while you wail away with a more powerful weapon?
Then he's wasted a spell slot, and a round where he could be casting spells that weren't just for penetrating MR, like summons or support spells, for example.
5c: Use support spells?
Unless you're getting dispelled, methinks whatever support spells necessary should be cast by the time you encounter your target, no?
5d: That can easily be higher damage overall, especially considering that you're already assuming easy hits which makes The Answerer's AC drain worse if not irrelevant.
Actually I specifically stated Critical Strike, which guarantees hits for one round. A round of Critical Strike Answerer hits means that pretty much every other character automatically hits with regular attacks.
6:
I know from my own experience that I treasure every point of damage. Many a "Near Death" Lich has owned me hard before I could put it down...
Personally I value connecting with hits, eliminating random chance. Nothing's more galling than missing that near death lich when you could have killed it if you'd hit.
I also like force multipliers, which the Answerer and Flail of Ages both are, as are Bards. Just because you're not the one doing the big damage numbers doesn't mean you're not contributing more in the end by bringing out the best of your team.
Since I'm at work, arbitrary, conservative statements and base mathematics is about all you're going to get. You're welcome to datamine up a few enemy stat blocs however, for the purpose of performing comparative analysis on them.
No need to datamine, it's all readily available in the .cre files. But still, if you can't use actual data, please don't arbitrarily come up with numbers that may be completely off the mark, or grossly misrepresenting the facts. I try to avoid numbers altogether in these debates, because they fluctuate considerably across setups; the underlying mechanics are much more stable.
I'm not attempting to prove anything except that the Answerer's damage is extremely competitive with most of the "best" weapons, which is in response to your initial claim that the Answerer does so little damage it cannot compete. I have highlighted a few examples and figures demonstrating how easy it is for the Answerer to match said damage if there is so much as a single point in difference between a target's AC and a character's THAC0.
You've provided examples, but I've provided rebuttals as well. Can you go into further detail? Where are those super-high AC enemies? Why are your party THAC0s so low?
I will persist that Answerer is the best Longsword however, the Angurvadal's fire damage is regularly resisted, and its 22 Strength is adequate, but replaceable, and certainly not vital for a mainhand weapon.
22 STR is very often not "replacable", as there is a limited supply of STR enhancements - limited enough that most parties will not run into redundancies. The STR belts, for example, might just as well be given to someone not wielding Angurvadal - in which case you've got two people with high STR. The same goes for tomes and Lum's Machine, just don't stack them on people you're planning to equip with STR-boosting items. Spread the love! As for the resistance, I'm not sure exactly how it works. From what I remember MR does not stop that damage (since it's not magical fire), but elemental resistance does. I'm not sure how the distribution is between enemies resistant to (non-magical) fire and enemies resistant to slashing weapons.
Full Plate = 1 AC. -3 against Slashing. Dexterity 18 = -3 AC. Ring of Protection +2 = -5 AC. Helm of Glory = -6 AC Golden Girdle = -13 AC against Slashing.
If you are not sporting a THAC0 of -12, then you are benefiting from the Answerer by 5% or more.
Dorn with a +6 Greatsword is 0 - 3 - 6 - 1; a THAC0 of -10, and benefits with 10% more hits, same as Keldorn with a 19 Strength belt.
This is very confusing. Most enemies aren't actually wearing armor (even hidden armor), they just have base AC and resistances. Most of the hidden gear confers immunities and resistances, rarely AC-related bonuses. As for the THAC0, as I said it's fairly trivial. You get to -10 with simple gear alone easily, let alone buffs or some of the THAC0-improving items. And that's on Paladins which can't have Grandmastery. Care to look at a Kensai's THAC0? A Berserker's? What about the guy using Crom Faeyr? It's very easy to spread classes/kits and gear in a way that gives all fighters very good THAC0s.
Feel free to insert ludicrous AC figures instead of HP, but you've summed up my position rather well.
I don't understand this. You mentioned the 0.8 difference for damage earlier, that was largely in response to that. Small differences count, as do large ones, even if they aren't readily apparent in every setup. That's what I was illustrating. The damage situation is definitely a reality when comparing, say, vanilla games and SCS ones; you can kill enemies in a single round in vanilla that you'd need minutes to kill with SCS, with the same gear. That doesn't mean that an inferior weapon isn't better in vanilla the same as it is in SCS. What does that have to do with your argument? AC values don't skyrocket in SCS, they are almost identical, as are the THAC0s. All that changes is that small damage differences can become relevant, which is why it's important to know whether a weapon deals 5 more damage or not. Those 5 damage won't mean a thing in vanilla, but 5 more still makes it the better choice even if it doesn't become apparent easily.
Note that MR applies to a few important non-mage features, such as Foebane's +4 Laloch's damage, which I do believe is MR restricted.
It is also the pretty much only such effect. All the other elemental procs are not affected by MR since they're not magical in nature. There's separate resistances for "fire" or "magical fire", for example. You don't see that on players, but you can check the game data to see it. It's the reason you can e.g. kill Drizzt with Fire Shield despite his very high MR. I don't think Foebane alone is argument enough.
Then he's wasted a spell slot, and a round where he could be casting spells that weren't just for penetrating MR, like summons or support spells, for example.
Well, "wasted" or not that depends on the numbers. If you end up with more damage via LR + higher weapon vs. Answerer + damage spell, then it's not wasted. You said it yourself, lower level spell slots at that point are easy to come by.
Personally I value connecting with hits, eliminating random chance. Nothing's more galling than missing that near death lich when you could have killed it if you'd hit.
Well that's the whole argument here isn't it? Lower damage + hitting more vs. higher damage + hitting less. You could just as well argue that the Lich would have died if only you'd hit it harder. Same difference in the end, given how many swings you make over the course of the average game chance tends to even out eventually. You can only look at averages, not individual occurrences. And I'm saying that on average, hitting harder beats hitting more, because you're already hitting fairly often. That's the whole issue here, you can't just brush it away with "I value connecting with hits".
I also like force multipliers, which the Answerer and Flail of Ages both are, as are Bards. Just because you're not the one doing the big damage numbers doesn't mean you're not contributing more in the end by bringing out the best of your team.
I agree, overall output is what counts, the bottom line. But don't overestimate your "force multipliers", they often simply don't add enough. I've done extensive testing with support classes and strategies, and found them almost always very lacking compared to a brute force, full power approach. Classes like bards or even clerics I don't even take along anymore because they do not offer enough bang. And I strongly feel that the situation is the same for The Answerer. It looks good on paper, but in reality it just won't bring enough.
So yeah, actually tested this by bringing these guys into the party, which will show up the extra modifiers KEEper doesn't.
Abazigal: -16 AC (-12 + 18 Dex) Balthazar: -24 AC (-10 + -14 Monk bonii, I think it actually caps out there or there'd be some Dex bonus) -34 against missiles Melissan: -12 AC (18 Dex again) Draconis (and random no-name Watcher's Keep Dragon): -11 AC Sendai: -10 AC against slashing, -8 generally. Sendai #2 & #5: -12 AC (-15 AC against missiles, slashing and piercing) Yaga-Shura: -21 AC (-24 against missiles and piercing, -25 against slashing) Saladrex: -13 AC Fallen Solar: -14 AC
S-Man, Mazzy and Korgan, Grand Mastery with a +5 Axe of the Unyielding and a strength of 22 (he can off-hand Angurvadal or something): 0 THAC0 +3 GM, +4 Str, +5 Axe: -12 THAC0.
If they, and they alone, end up using Crom Faeyr, -15 THAC0.
So a pure Fighter, with Grand Mastery and a +5 weapon can hit all but Balthazar and Yaga-Shura out of that list, especially if you throw in the miscellaneous THAC0 boosters to hit -14 or -17.
Jaheira, Valygar, Minsc, Dorn and Keldorn: 0 THAC0, +1 Specialisation, +5 for a weapon, +4 for Strength (Minsc might get 25, it's probably pushing it for the other three, so they can all have 21 Strength), -10 THAC0. -11 if they pull out a +6 Sword, maybe all the way up to -13 with miscellaneous bonuses. Rasaad gets what, +8 to hit from gear? With 21 Strength he's -12 as well.
Even with all the stops pulled out, these guys can usually still benefit from 5% effective damage bonuses minimum from the Answerer.
Anomen, with Grand Mastery (cheesy, but possible), with +5 FoA and a 22 Strength belt: 6 THAC0 + 3 GM +4 Str +5 Flail: -6 THAC0. -9 if he Holy Mights.
He will regularly benefit from the Answerer, even with an extra +2 from miscellaneous items he's still falling short on a few of these.
Hexxat will absolutely always benefit, as will Jan, Cernd, Viconia and Haerdalis. In fact, any missile user will probably benefit, because it's a lot harder to itemise Dexterity.
Finally, every summon, Animate Dead through Mordenkainen's Sword, will absolutely benefit from the Answerer.
Anyways, if you can think of any other tough enemies in ToB go for it, it's new years, I'm off.
Monk Fist + Scarlet Ninjato - Yeah, it's the only way a Monk's going to get more attacks per round, and 5 APR with a 1D20 "+4" fist is an average 50+ damage per round coming out of your pretty well immortal monk, which is nice.
Monk Fist + Scarlet Ninjato - Yeah, it's the only way a Monk's going to get more attacks per round, and 5 APR with a 1D20 "+4" fist is an average 50+ damage per round coming out of your pretty well immortal monk, which is nice.
Dual wield with a monk? WTF! I want that!!!!!
Just equip the Scarlet-To on his off-hand. Critical strike will make up for the loss of Thac0.
Comments
I therefore suggest using the last slot of each spell circle for your 'first in-first out' spells… pre-battle buffs like stoneskins, etc… rather than any 'just in case' spells which you'll be really pissed to lose mid-battle.
Mmmmm.
As it is:
Purifier + Hindo's Doom - No nonsense 40% MR + Death immunity. Hindo's goes nicely in any offhand slot really, proficient or not.
Foebane + Axe of the Unyielding +5 - 13 HP recovered per turn is quite nice, if you're maining Foebane, and the rest of the time Axe in the main hand gives one of the best one handed weapons out there.
Monk Fist + Scarlet Ninjato - Yeah, it's the only way a Monk's going to get more attacks per round, and 5 APR with a 1D20 "+4" fist is an average 50+ damage per round coming out of your pretty well immortal monk, which is nice.
Answerer + Crom Faeyr/Angurvadal/Belm - The Answerer is probably the best weapon in the game. Anything to help it hit harder, better, faster, or stronger is naturally awesome.
It's great that you like certain weapons and that's a personal preference no one will fight you over. But please don't perpetuate "this is the best weapon in the game" unless you are CERTAIN and WILLING TO BACK THAT CLAIM UP. I'm neither, and I do a hell of a lot of theorizing. Most people just tend to skim over info and when they see something like "this is the best X" it sticks to their memory, true or not; don't assist in spreading ignorance and blanket-statement gullibility.
Assuming my Wizard Slayer had Grand Mastery in Longswords for The Answerer, I would have a Thac0 of -2 in Combat. As you naturally point out, no matter how many times my Wizard Slayer hits the target, chances are my Wizard Slayer will be hitting with or without said debuff.
That said, the rest of my party is somewhere between Thac0 4-5 and Thac0 8 (shakes fist at Useless Yoshimo). They would all benefit from some degree from The Answerer, the more hits you get, the FtC rate increases (Faster to Chunk). Things that get chunked faster = fewer spells needed etc, which is overall a good thing. Against something like a dragon or "Big Bad" this might in fact turn out fairly decently. EXCEPT!
Argument against the Answerer:
My Wizard Slayer is level 13, the rest of the melee (except Anomen and Yoshimo) are 11 or 12. And that presents the glaring weakness with the effectively armor reduction of The Answerer. Its usefulness has an inverse correlation to party level. The weapon is less useful for a party with average level 20 (Rough SoA cap), rocking various +3 to +5 weapons, beginning to swim in spells and with numerous strength enhancing items. And you will be even farther along than that when you gain access to the weapon.
In retrospect:
If you could acquire The Answerer on the first or second level of Watcher's Keep, you would have an EXTREMELY powerful longsword on your hands, just due to how early you could acquire it. Gaining something, both with that level of enchantment (+4) and with such a great early game debuff attached to it, it COULD completely change the face of a lot of more physical damage oriented parties. Instead though it is a weapon that you get once you're already in Throne of Bhaal, at which point most parties are looking at the early to mid 20s. Compared to other weapons at the time, on top of what your warrior class thac0 would be, The Answerer is left as a rather disappointing weapon.
The best throwing weapons are actually dwarves. I think for Dual Wielding dorn would prolly prefer main handing an Elf and offhanding a half-elf.
In a total fantasy dream world where dual-wielding would be vastly improved though, I'd dual-wield Usuno +4 and Yamato +4. Being a total ninja-like bad-ass with powerful weapons.
This said, your claims are flawed.
Averages, with Crom Faeyr and specialisation:
Flail of Ages: 35.5 damage.
Foebane: 30 damage.
Angurvadal: 29 damage.
Storm Star: 29 damage.
Spectral Brand: 28 damage.
The Answerer: 24.5 damage.
4.5 damage average, assuming no elemental resistances or magic resistance, is hardly "so little damage" considering you're already dealing sizeable amounts of punishment whatever weapon you're wielding.
But where the Answerer shines is as a force multiplier. If one hit with the Answerer means 10% of your partymate's melee or ranged damage hits where they otherwise would have missed, then the Answerer is directly responsible for 10% of your total party's damage:
Viccy with Everard and 21 Strength = 15.5 damage per hit.
Anomen with 22 Strength and Flail of Ages = 31.5 damage per hit.
That's 4.7 damage over just two characters.
Even they'd have hit on a 3, now they hit on a 2 that's still accounting for a percentage of your party's entire combat damage per round. With five people swinging each of those "best weapons" up there once per round, then the Answerer at 5% is accounting for an extra 7.5 damage a turn. If one of them is swinging the Axe of the Unyielding, then the Answerer has suddenly developed a 1% Vorpal effect. The more attacks your party get, the better the Answerer is.
On top of that, however, is a 15% MR debuff. This not only helps mages in terms of ensuring they can get their spells through, but it saves them from needing to cast spells to do so, meaning more slots of domination.
The Answerer is also one of the only ways by which you can bring MR from 100 to nothing in a single round. Improved Haste plus 3 1/2 Answerer Critical Strikes means 7 hits for -15% MR each. Now the Answerer is 100% responsible for the damage dealt by, for example, the 20D6 (70 damage) Skull Trap the mage flung out to save slots for something more important.
And even when you've actually made your hits and rendered their AC/MR utterly useless, it's still working to your benefit, and boosts any other weapon you pull out afterwards too.
So again, yeah, by virtue of making every other weapon in the game better, it's the best weapon in the game, though like most of the best spells it won't show up on your statistics page.
The Flail of Ages +4's slow effect is a near second, but the lack of MR reduction and only 33% chance of application (plus non-stacking) do pose a limit on its force multiplication potential. The save penalty is fabulous though.
Besides, that "10%" of yours is completely arbitrary. Values are contingent on individual party THAC0s and individual enemy ACs, which can vary greatly. Not to mention that your Answerer has to hit by itself in the first place, before anything happens.
I'm not disputing that the Answerer can be a valid choice in certain scenarios. The higher enemy AC and the lower party THAC0, the better it gets. If you construct a party of very weak characters with terrible THAC0s, the Answerer will become very good. That's why there are no "absolutes" in this game - it all depends on your setup. However, the Answerer also scaled directly with the number of physical damage dealers present, which in turn means the average party tends to have better THAC0s (assuming people prefer physical damage on classes better suited to it, on average). So while there is no conclusive data, I'd say that there are very strong indicators that the Answerer's AC advantage is not as good as you think, because party THAC0s aren't terrible (on average) and the better they are the less important the AC malus becomes. While this may be true theoretically, in practice I do not think this is a likely scenario. So you have someone with high MR, but you are already merrily hitting it with your sword? Why do you need the spells, then? Spells have terrible DPT due to their one-per-round restriction, reaching high values only in AoE scenarios. You are not going to go around debuffing 10 enemies in turn so you can Horrid Wilting them, that's just not reality. And against single enemies, once your weapon hits are already connecting, what do you need the magic for?
What enemy gets hit by 7 consecutive hits but requires magic to defeat? And just to be clear: those 70 damage from a Skull Trap is *very* low. It is all your mage's damage for the ENTIRE round. Look at your list above: three hits (of up to TEN/round with +APR weapons and IH) with any of the good weapons up there already top that, without a chance to be interrupted, and without worrying about MR - after all, your premise is already that your weapon hits connect easily, so why bother with spells? Just smack away with strong weapons and ignore the MR.
Mages are best used for their supportive spells. Buffs like IH, dispels like RRR, that sort of thing is what you need; Magic Missile & Co. are not (outside of AoE). Outside of a few fringe scenarios (and some cheeses), damage magic is fairly useless. One of the exceptions is Dragon's Breath, since it's virtually instant, high level (against Liches etc.), and does more than just damage (knockback). Oh and it also ignores MR, so there's that.
So, again, you can definitely construct scenarios in which The Answerer shines - but only because you set it up that way. In an average setup using non-braindead strategies, it is not a very good weapon. And if you don't assume people playing properly, well, then ANYTHING can be the "best" weapon in the game.
However you are correct, ACs can vary greatly, and the advantage it can supply also varies greatly. This is why I assumed that one in every twenty swings is going to hit just a little further down, but you've missed the point, 4.5 damage brings you neatly in line with the other "best" weapons in the game in terms of damage, and that's with two clerics hitting once each per round.
The upper limit to Foebane is against a Vampire, at which point it's 36 average damage per hit or so.
The upper limit to the Answerer is mutable. The harder your target is harder to hit or hurt, the Answerer is better.
And if your target isn't dangerous in the first place, then it's not dangerous enough for Answerer's lower damage to matter, at which point you're arguing about what's better at dealing with chaff. Nonsensical statement. This applies to every weapon, the Answerer, however, makes every future hit more likely. Correct, if a character hits on a 2, then Answerer does not provide a benefit. For any target with an AC of -10 or better, the Answerer supplies at least a 5% damage bonus to all the physical damage dealers in your party that do not have a -10 to THAC0, because 1 more swing in 20 will connect.
Since physical damage dealers also frequently attack multiple times per turn, the force multiplication continues to improve. If the target can be hit on a 5+, then two Answerer hits is an extra 4 hits in every twenty that will connect, increasing a 75% damage chance to a 95% damage chance. Why not use magic, if your mage is just going to be twiddling their thumbs tossing darts anyway? The faster you end a combat, the less time you're playing ToB, and it's not like you were going to use that level 3 spell slot anyway before you rested. Having tactical options isn't irrelevant just because you didn't bother to use them. By that logic, what weapon matters anyway? It's all mantles and immunities, clearing the path for your mages to end or trivialise the encounter with single spells.
I mean this as sincerely as it can be interpreted. To that end, I shall now attempt to liven the debate:
OMG BGTutu iz btr than BGEE money-grobbing Beemdog.
Since I'm at work, arbitrary, conservative statements and base mathematics is about all you're going to get. You're welcome to datamine up a few enemy stat blocs however, for the purpose of performing comparative analysis on them.
2: Again with the arbitrary assumptions! You can't just take random numbers, calculate data from them, and then use that to "prove" a point. Anecdotes are not evidence. If anything, look at the systemic factors involved. My contention is that The Answerer's value can be expressed as a function of party THAC0 and enemy AC (as mentioned earlier), and that it does not surpass the damage values of alternative weapons in the majority of cases.
I'm not attempting to prove anything except that the Answerer's damage is extremely competitive with most of the "best" weapons, which is in response to your initial claim that the Answerer does so little damage it cannot compete. I have highlighted a few examples and figures demonstrating how easy it is for the Answerer to match said damage if there is so much as a single point in difference between a target's AC and a character's THAC0.
I will persist that Answerer is the best Longsword however, the Angurvadal's fire damage is regularly resisted, and its 22 Strength is adequate, but replaceable, and certainly not vital for a mainhand weapon.
3: That would be equating "dangerous" with "hard to hit-roll against", which is entirely inaccurate. In fact, the most dangerous enemies in the game hands down are spellcasters, which are often very easy to make to-hit rolls against (= low AC). Their defenses are not based on AC. In fact, AC is not a huge factor in this game at all, and doesn't progress nearly as dramatically as other enemy stats. Even enemies at the end of ToB have very fair ACs (Melissan is -8, Abazigal is -12 and so is Demogorgon - and they are as tough as it goes) making them fairly easy to hit for accomplished fighters. But of course it's not hard to compose parties with terrible THAC0s, which will benefit more from The Answerer...
Full Plate = 1 AC. -3 against Slashing.
Dexterity 18 = -3 AC.
Ring of Protection +2 = -5 AC.
Helm of Glory = -6 AC
Golden Girdle = -13 AC against Slashing.
If you are not sporting a THAC0 of -12, then you are benefiting from the Answerer by 5% or more.
Dorn with a +6 Greatsword is 0 - 3 - 6 - 1; a THAC0 of -10, and benefits with 10% more hits, same as Keldorn with a 19 Strength belt.
These guys are also either GWWing or IHing five hits a round, which all benefit from the Answerer.
4: Feel free to insert ludicrous AC figures instead of HP, but you've summed up my position rather well.
5: What would the mage do against a MR opponent?
Note that MR applies to a few important non-mage features, such as Foebane's +4 Laloch's damage, which I do believe is MR restricted.
5a: Cast summons?
Sure. Answerer boosts Summons too. The more allies you have fighting, the better Force Multiplication gets.
5b: And what happens if the mage instead uses Lower Resist for himself, while you wail away with a more powerful weapon?
Then he's wasted a spell slot, and a round where he could be casting spells that weren't just for penetrating MR, like summons or support spells, for example.
5c: Use support spells?
Unless you're getting dispelled, methinks whatever support spells necessary should be cast by the time you encounter your target, no?
5d: That can easily be higher damage overall, especially considering that you're already assuming easy hits which makes The Answerer's AC drain worse if not irrelevant.
Actually I specifically stated Critical Strike, which guarantees hits for one round. A round of Critical Strike Answerer hits means that pretty much every other character automatically hits with regular attacks.
6: Personally I value connecting with hits, eliminating random chance. Nothing's more galling than missing that near death lich when you could have killed it if you'd hit.
I also like force multipliers, which the Answerer and Flail of Ages both are, as are Bards. Just because you're not the one doing the big damage numbers doesn't mean you're not contributing more in the end by bringing out the best of your team.
I think it's absolutly win weapon
Abazigal: -16 AC (-12 + 18 Dex)
Balthazar: -24 AC (-10 + -14 Monk bonii, I think it actually caps out there or there'd be some Dex bonus) -34 against missiles
Melissan: -12 AC (18 Dex again)
Draconis (and random no-name Watcher's Keep Dragon): -11 AC
Sendai: -10 AC against slashing, -8 generally.
Sendai #2 & #5: -12 AC (-15 AC against missiles, slashing and piercing)
Yaga-Shura: -21 AC (-24 against missiles and piercing, -25 against slashing)
Saladrex: -13 AC
Fallen Solar: -14 AC
S-Man, Mazzy and Korgan, Grand Mastery with a +5 Axe of the Unyielding and a strength of 22 (he can off-hand Angurvadal or something): 0 THAC0 +3 GM, +4 Str, +5 Axe: -12 THAC0.
If they, and they alone, end up using Crom Faeyr, -15 THAC0.
So a pure Fighter, with Grand Mastery and a +5 weapon can hit all but Balthazar and Yaga-Shura out of that list, especially if you throw in the miscellaneous THAC0 boosters to hit -14 or -17.
Jaheira, Valygar, Minsc, Dorn and Keldorn: 0 THAC0, +1 Specialisation, +5 for a weapon, +4 for Strength (Minsc might get 25, it's probably pushing it for the other three, so they can all have 21 Strength), -10 THAC0. -11 if they pull out a +6 Sword, maybe all the way up to -13 with miscellaneous bonuses. Rasaad gets what, +8 to hit from gear? With 21 Strength he's -12 as well.
Even with all the stops pulled out, these guys can usually still benefit from 5% effective damage bonuses minimum from the Answerer.
Anomen, with Grand Mastery (cheesy, but possible), with +5 FoA and a 22 Strength belt: 6 THAC0 + 3 GM +4 Str +5 Flail: -6 THAC0. -9 if he Holy Mights.
He will regularly benefit from the Answerer, even with an extra +2 from miscellaneous items he's still falling short on a few of these.
Hexxat will absolutely always benefit, as will Jan, Cernd, Viconia and Haerdalis. In fact, any missile user will probably benefit, because it's a lot harder to itemise Dexterity.
Finally, every summon, Animate Dead through Mordenkainen's Sword, will absolutely benefit from the Answerer.
Anyways, if you can think of any other tough enemies in ToB go for it, it's new years, I'm off.