I just make my melee fighters go *slash, slash, hack, stab!*, my casters go *fwooosh! pew pew! boom!* and my archers go *fssshhht! katwack!* and somehow the enemies end up dead, all without any tanking theorycrafting needed. Oh how I love efficient simplicity
I just make my melee fighters go *slash, slash, hack, stab!*, my casters go *fwooosh! pew pew! boom!* and my archers go *fssshhht! katwack!* and somehow the enemies end up dead, all without any tanking theorycrafting needed. Oh how I love efficient simplicity
Getting back on topic, Enhanced Bard Song just saved me some headaches in the maze level of Watcher's Keep. Protects from the fear and stuns even in dead magic zones. Trivializes all the demon fights.
@skaffen it's called Order of the Stick. It is a free online comic, and it is incredible. There seem to be a lot of fans on this site too. It's basically a hilarious take on Dungeons and Dragons and roleplaying, but even accessible to those who don't play D&D or even its computer games. check it out here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html
- bards are very high maintenance character requiring a lot of buffing to be efficient. If you don't micromanage them, they just suck. For that reason i think they are better played solo or in very small groups.
- Bard songs are not bad, but frankly betweem 1 guy doing a slight improvement of everybody and 1 guy doing 10 attacks/round, i know i prefer the latter.
-Saying that "Mislead Bards singing Enhanced Bard Song does wonders! " just makes no sense. Using any kind of overly cheesy tactic does wonder. IMO the most efficient way to cheese if you are interested in that is project image unlimited summons. Just cast project image twice, summon 10 planetars and watch everything die in a few seconds (not sure if that is still working in BG2EE)
-Saying that "Mislead Bards singing Enhanced Bard Song does wonders! " just makes no sense. Using any kind of overly cheesy tactic does wonder. IMO the most efficient way to cheese if you are interested in that is project image unlimited summons. Just cast project image twice, summon 10 planetars and watch everything die in a few seconds (not sure if that is still working in BG2EE)
Pretty sure there is a summon limit in BG2EE or maybe it's because I'm using SCS.
But your argument doesn't make sense as there are a million cheesy tactics in this game. Herp derp, spam some horrid wilting with no danger of friendly fire will get you through 99% of the encounters in the game.
There was always a summon limit. The thing is project image summons did not count toward that limit, therefore the possibility to summon as many planetars as you wanted...
Anyway my point (same as yours!) was just to illustrate that referring to cheese potential (singing mislead) to say that a class is powerful does not make any sense given the cheese potential in the game (especially for casters and thieves (UAI, traps))
I'd give bards more love in BG if it weren't for the existence of the Fighter/Mage/Thief, which at the same amount of Exp generally wins on THAC0, # of attacks, Thief Skills (aka "actually gets them"), Traps (See Thief Skills), Spell Access - it does, notably, get a slightly earlier access to level 6 spells, which is a major advantage. Except for Level 7 and 8 spells, and spell quantity - at least for the vast majority of the game.
Oh, and Robe of Vecna before level 24.
It also gets access to better HLAs, more HLAs (20 vs. 17), and you get to be an Elf, which is more than twice as good as being a half-elf.
All you miss out on are Caster Level (which is irrelevant for the best spells), HP (which is irrelevant for the best classes), Bard Songs (which for the Blade, and frequently for the primary bard as well, are just plain irrelevant), and at least for a few times each day, the Blade gets to feel relevant by spinning in circles shouting "Wheee!" at the top of their lungs, and any damage advantage from spells whatsoever is likely more than topped by actually having Snares, rather than a few HLA "per day"s, or by Critical Strike, or by having Improved Haste, or by having Assassinate...
And what's the point of Blades even specialising? It's not like they get the half-attack that makes it worthwhile, and they've got such a pathetic number of proficiency points you're talking a very real and painful investment.
Skalds: Decent. Jesters: Decent. Blades: Wish they were Fighter/Mage/Thieves who'd Specialised in ballet.
1. Caster level being irrelevant. Bards do good damage with the few spells they have throughout early->mid game. Later, they still have better damage from some of them, but then they also have a much better duration for some very useful spells like Improved Haste (oh and isn't Horrid Wilting on of the best spells for mages? scales with level). By the way, F/M/Ts don't even *get* the best spells because they cap at spell level 8 (which they have to get past 5 million XP to even reach).
2. Bard song being a small bonus. Yes the basic bard song is, but Enhanced Bard Song is definitely a big boost. So is the Skald song.
3. Spins being pointless. They're very useful early->mid game, and later with Improved Haste they're still there if you run out. Defensive Spin is also a rather large boost.
Most importantly, I don't play to cheese as much as possible. I want a party of strong but also fun and varied characters. So the point is not at all that bards are the best, because (and I definitely agree with you there), they clearly are not. The point is simply bards are good and fun.
Yeah the whole caster-level thing is almost broken with bards. Compared to mages their Skull Traps do more damage, they get the 9 HD skeleton warrior from Animate Dead much sooner, their Dispel Magic's are vastly more potent, they get more skins with Stoneskin, their THACO is lower with Tenser's... yadda yadda.
I like HD and I use him because he's funny. That's reason enough for me. If I think he's underpowered I could always EEKeeper him better but I never do since more or less every NPC in the game gets really powerful on higher levels.
As for Bards in general, I like the concept, they can be fun. They're not the best at anything and they shouldn't be (jack of all trades, master of none, remember?) but the very much suit the concept of the adventurer archetype. The kits are slightly less not masters on some things and they have some okay backgrounds, good enough for me.
I completely agree with : overpowered multi (FM / FMT) are much stronger than the bard :
- caster level is indeed mostly irrelevant, especially since it is capped at 20 - offensive spin is good but actually it only helps the blade to compensate, for a short duration, the lack of extra attacks the fighter gets. Do you prefer to ALWAYS have 1.5 extra attack with +2 damage or to have 1 extra attack/+5 (including max damage roll) for some time ?
That being said the blade is far from useless, especially until HLAs. It is only when other classes get their HLA (and access to higher levels of spells) that it starts to lag behind.
Also, nowadays, i avoid playing multi classes, because they are totally unbalanced. And for a single class the balde is actually very decent and a good (very good) soloer
I did not know that caster level is capped at 20. Still, a F/M/T does not even reach mage 18
I completely agree that multiclasses are overpowered, especially when it comes to HLAs. More HLAs, bigger HLA pools. On the other hand, in my current game, Viconia has picked every single HLA she can get and I'm not even done with SoA yet. Mages can at least go for more spell slots when they have the epic spells they want. They really dropped the ball when they designed cleric HLAs.
Its capped at 20 with the exception of Dispel/Remove Magic.
I think when you are comparing caster levels between blades and F/M/T's it matters. Depending on the point in BG2 a blade could be anywhere from 3-8 caster levels ahead of a F/M/T.
Once capped, i definitely prefer a level 18 caster with level 8 spells than a level 20 caster with level 6 spells Therefore in solo (where the cap is hit very early in the game), the FMT is MUCH stronger. In larger group, i would avoid the FMT and go for FT or FM
As for the unbalanced multi/dual, the problem with single classes is that there is almost no choice when picking companions if you want to avoid dual/multi classes : - only 1 pure cleric (viconia) and 1 druid (Cernd) - only 1 pure thief (Yoshimo) - only 1 pure caster (edwin). In BG2EE the situation is a little bit better with Neera and Hexxat.
I guess my stance on this argument is colored by the fact that with the Rogue Rebalancing mod, my bards, blades, and jesters all end up being able to cast level 8 spells, as per PnP.
They can cast level 8 scrolls, although I realize that's hardly a feasible replacement for a "real" spellcaster. Still, it is a bit disgusting that their horrid wiltings are more powerful when they have them.
Insofar as the long game, of course mage characters are stronger. I just can't agree that the middle of the game is irrelevant; some of the most difficult battles are in SoA. And the bard buffs matter in a party that can take good advantage of them.
I recently played a bard (evil jester) and i made the experience that it is much more efficient to just armor him up in BG1 and build him to a 2nd mage in BG2. However i've never been able to find great equipment for a bard till mid/late BG2 and then stopped playing.
I currently play an evil cleric/mage multi and till now (BG1) this is much more versatile then a bard. I have good possibilitys to buff/debuff in fights aswell. I can use alot of items. I have a strong progression through the game.
In my opinion the concept of a bard is nice but the execution in BG is bad. I wouldn't call it "micro management" i would rather call it "going for borderline tactics".. which is always a sign that something is not right with that class.
1. Caster level being irrelevant. Bards do good damage with the few spells they have throughout early->mid game. Later, they still have better damage from some of them, but then they also have a much better duration for some very useful spells like Improved Haste (oh and isn't Horrid Wilting on of the best spells for mages? scales with level). By the way, F/M/Ts don't even *get* the best spells because they cap at spell level 8 (which they have to get past 5 million XP to even reach).
Oh, I'm not saying that caster level is irrelevant to bards. Just Mages. Damage is not the best thing that any mage could, or should, be doing with their spells, they have crowd control, buffs that render entire swathes of enemies utterly useless, and Save or Sucks that basically win the combat so the mage can put their feet up whilst their lowly peons Fighters clean up.
The level 8 spell you want to look out for is Simulacrum, not Horrid Wilting, because it calls up precisely the most dangerous thing in the game - another high level Fighter/Mage/Thief.
And duration? Improved Haste basically has a "duration" of "One Combat". If it takes you more than ten rounds fighting at double APR in order to win, you're probably doing it wrong, if you're getting into multiple fights on a single casting of Improved Haste, either you're not managing your encounters very well, or you have the entire map memorised anyway.
Suggesting that F/M/Ts don't get their "best" spells is disingenuous. The F/M/T's "best" spells are level 8s, the Bard's "best" spells are level 6. The Fighter/Mage/Thief isn't a worse character just because he gets much, much better if you remove the XP cap any more than he's a worse character in that he completely outclasses the Bard as he gets to higher XP.
2. Bard song being a small bonus. Yes the basic bard song is, but Enhanced Bard Song is definitely a big boost. So is the Skald song.
So are Snares. And free True Sight. And picking locks. And disarming traps. And indeed, importantly, so is having an extra person who is "actually useful" in your party instead of a thief.
There's a limit to how great it can be to have one person whose job is to sit on their thumb yodelling in order to ensure that everybody else has an easier time.... compensating for the fact that one person in the party is sitting on their thumb yodelling.
3. Spins being pointless. They're very useful early->mid game, and later with Improved Haste they're still there if you run out. Defensive Spin is also a rather large boost.
Offensive Spins are passably adequate compared to the major advantage of "Being a Fighter". You spend 99% of your time at 1/2 to 1-1/2 attacks fewer, then get a few rounds per day at "kind of like a Fighter except now they have Haste available and that makes you sad". You're also advancing at Thief THAC0, which means you cap at 10 THAC0 and advance slower than Clerics, of all things.
Defensive Spins are, at best, mediocre. 5 AC robes are available from Chapter 2 Baldur's Gate, the Robe of Vecna is available from Chapter 2 Baldur's Gate 2.
They're telling you something. They're telling you that the BG universe hates bards and wants to deny them nice things. Early-game, defensive spin is worse than having a robe. Mid-game, defensive spin is kinda pointless because you have stoneskin, mirror image and it's still better to have a robe anyway. Late game AC is pretty well pointless, since you have ways of becoming absolutely immune to your enemy's attacks anyway, but at least you're wearing the Vecna I assume (unless you gave it to somebody more useful), so nobody can interrupt your spells anyway.
The point is simply bards are good and fun.
Hey, glad you enjoy them. Don't let mechanical issues stop you from picking whichever class you find fun. I still prefer Barbarians to Berserkers after all.
I guess my stance on this argument is colored by the fact that with the Rogue Rebalancing mod, my bards, blades, and jesters all end up being able to cast level 8 spells, as per PnP.
I played a little of RR before I started on challenge games with no mods enabled, and what I saw was a bit improvement. The Bard was basically supposed to mirror the F/M/T with tradeoffs (a few too many tradeoffs in BG unfortunately), and getting up to level 8 spells helps keep them from falling by the wayside quite so badly. Losing HLA traps was a pretty brutal loss for them though, since that was their only access to Timestop.
To be honest, it was always my impression that this whole "mage is not about damage" thing only relates to PnP version of games (especially in D&D 3.5ed). In BG2, which is infinitely simplified, there is almost nothing that can't be achieved by direct damage dealing. No one is going to tell me that Maze or Power Word: Blind is going to be their first choice for 8th level slots. It's almost always Horrid Wilting and, due to how the game is designed, rightly so. For 9th level it's always Time Stop so you can, with Improved Alacrity, cast few debuffs and start launching Horrid Wiltings and Skull Traps.
The only non-direct damage dealing aggresive spell which is awesome and worth mentioning is, in my opinion, Finger of Death (in tandem with Greater Malison).
The only non-direct damage dealing aggresive spell which is awesome and worth mentioning is, in my opinion, Finger of Death (in tandem with Greater Malison).
I think it mostly just depends on how far you are into the game. Once you hit the level 8 spells, most of the tough enemies you fight have got better saves/immunities that make your non-damage spells pretty weak. No point memorizing 5 Horror/Chaos/Stinking Cloud spells if the tough guys are immune to the effect and it won't stick to the weak guys- but when everyone's got middling saves and immunities aren't in the picture yet, they can shine.
Also, on a mathematical level- your core damage spells (Horrid Wilting, Skull Trap, etc.) scale better than HP does after level 10. HP gains for human/demi-human enemies plateau at level 10, but the best damage spells continue to grow linearly until level 20, so they're doing more %health damage to enemies in the late game. If you're a high level mage, absolutely go for damage spells.
Also, for me, I always play multi-classed characters because I like the variation and power that you get from it. Playing a Blade is interesting because I still get that variation while playing something non-standard. From a powergaming route there is no compelling reason to choose the Bard over the many other options you have, though. I wish that Blades got Fighter THAC0 or THAC0 bonuses like the Swashbuckler, though. That would make them much more serious contenders without breaking the class.
I don't have the energy to quote every single part of that, and I also don't think it serves any point other than to drag out an argument that's really not all that relevant.
F/M/T (heck, anything involving F/M) is, in my opinion, super cheesy. It's probably great fun too, I won't deny that. I just think it's silly to claim that a perfectly good, fun and usable class somehow has issues just because it doesn't live up to the same amount of cheese. I think this is where we find our basic disagreement. I don't measure its quality by holding it up to the kensages, the ranger/clerics or a F/M/Ts. I simply ask: does the class work well in the game? I found that yes, it does.
If this was a thread discussing which class is best, I would definitely pick a different class, but it's not.
Defensive Spins are, at best, mediocre. 5 AC robes are available from Chapter 2 Baldur's Gate, the Robe of Vecna is available from Chapter 2 Baldur's Gate 2.
OK, I will address this single point because I just can't help myself.
Defensive Spin lowers your AC by 1 per level up to a maximum of 10. This is on top of your AC from dex and armor. It actually stacks with Enhanced Bard Song as well so if you're going to sing, might as well spin first and you get a whopping -20 to your AC. My Haer'Dalis is currently in his Melodic Chain, which sets his AC to -1. Spin and song get his AC down to -21. This is with 17 dex, mind you.
Melodic Chain alone gives you better AC than the robe. Gaunlets of AC 3 obviously give better AC. Heck, a lot of things do. On top of that you can get up to -10 from Defensive Spin early in the game. Later on, -21 AC is still very good. I've just been through Watcher's Keep, and AC isn't even irrelevant there. It isn't irrelevant in all of SoA.
I could never play a F/M/T simply because I can't stand the slow leveling. (I generally dislike multi-class characters for this reason, though NPCs with 2 classes I can tolerate.)
And to play a mage and not get level 9 and 10 (HLA) spells would be maddening!
Unless you're playing a solo game, or a game with only 1 or 2 NPCs, I don't see the point in a F/M/T. (F/M, F/T, or M/T all seem like more fun IMO.)
I have no idea if a Blade is stronger/weaker overall than a F/M/T with the same amount of experience. And I don't care. I like the faster leveling of the Blade, the special abilities, and the bard stronghold over what a F/M/T has to offer (though the mage one is quite fun as well).
Is a Blade weak? Well, my level 28 Blade has THAC0 of -4/-2 (dual-wielding Crom Faeyr and Scarlet Ninja-To) without any spells or OS active, and has racked up 38% of all kills (32% of experience) in SoA. He killed Kangaax with Azuredge. So he seems to be holding his own well quite well so far (currently he's in Suldanessellar). Would a F/M/T with the same amount of experience be 'more powerful' or 'more useful' (or whatever)? *shrug*
Comments
check it out here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html
- bards are very high maintenance character requiring a lot of buffing to be efficient. If you don't micromanage them, they just suck. For that reason i think they are better played solo or in very small groups.
- Bard songs are not bad, but frankly betweem 1 guy doing a slight improvement of everybody and 1 guy doing 10 attacks/round, i know i prefer the latter.
-Saying that "Mislead Bards singing Enhanced Bard Song does wonders! " just makes no sense. Using any kind of overly cheesy tactic does wonder. IMO the most efficient way to cheese if you are interested in that is project image unlimited summons. Just cast project image twice, summon 10 planetars and watch everything die in a few seconds (not sure if that is still working in BG2EE)
But your argument doesn't make sense as there are a million cheesy tactics in this game. Herp derp, spam some horrid wilting with no danger of friendly fire will get you through 99% of the encounters in the game.
Anyway my point (same as yours!) was just to illustrate that referring to cheese potential (singing mislead) to say that a class is powerful does not make any sense given the cheese potential in the game (especially for casters and thieves (UAI, traps))
Oh, and Robe of Vecna before level 24.
It also gets access to better HLAs, more HLAs (20 vs. 17), and you get to be an Elf, which is more than twice as good as being a half-elf.
All you miss out on are Caster Level (which is irrelevant for the best spells), HP (which is irrelevant for the best classes), Bard Songs (which for the Blade, and frequently for the primary bard as well, are just plain irrelevant), and at least for a few times each day, the Blade gets to feel relevant by spinning in circles shouting "Wheee!" at the top of their lungs, and any damage advantage from spells whatsoever is likely more than topped by actually having Snares, rather than a few HLA "per day"s, or by Critical Strike, or by having Improved Haste, or by having Assassinate...
And what's the point of Blades even specialising? It's not like they get the half-attack that makes it worthwhile, and they've got such a pathetic number of proficiency points you're talking a very real and painful investment.
Skalds: Decent.
Jesters: Decent.
Blades: Wish they were Fighter/Mage/Thieves who'd Specialised in ballet.
1. Caster level being irrelevant. Bards do good damage with the few spells they have throughout early->mid game. Later, they still have better damage from some of them, but then they also have a much better duration for some very useful spells like Improved Haste (oh and isn't Horrid Wilting on of the best spells for mages? scales with level). By the way, F/M/Ts don't even *get* the best spells because they cap at spell level 8 (which they have to get past 5 million XP to even reach).
2. Bard song being a small bonus. Yes the basic bard song is, but Enhanced Bard Song is definitely a big boost. So is the Skald song.
3. Spins being pointless. They're very useful early->mid game, and later with Improved Haste they're still there if you run out. Defensive Spin is also a rather large boost.
Most importantly, I don't play to cheese as much as possible. I want a party of strong but also fun and varied characters. So the point is not at all that bards are the best, because (and I definitely agree with you there), they clearly are not. The point is simply bards are good and fun.
As for Bards in general, I like the concept, they can be fun. They're not the best at anything and they shouldn't be (jack of all trades, master of none, remember?) but the very much suit the concept of the adventurer archetype. The kits are slightly less not masters on some things and they have some okay backgrounds, good enough for me.
- caster level is indeed mostly irrelevant, especially since it is capped at 20
- offensive spin is good but actually it only helps the blade to compensate, for a short duration, the lack of extra attacks the fighter gets. Do you prefer to ALWAYS have 1.5 extra attack with +2 damage or to have 1 extra attack/+5 (including max damage roll) for some time ?
That being said the blade is far from useless, especially until HLAs. It is only when other classes get their HLA (and access to higher levels of spells) that it starts to lag behind.
Also, nowadays, i avoid playing multi classes, because they are totally unbalanced. And for a single class the balde is actually very decent and a good (very good) soloer
I completely agree that multiclasses are overpowered, especially when it comes to HLAs. More HLAs, bigger HLA pools. On the other hand, in my current game, Viconia has picked every single HLA she can get and I'm not even done with SoA yet. Mages can at least go for more spell slots when they have the epic spells they want. They really dropped the ball when they designed cleric HLAs.
I think when you are comparing caster levels between blades and F/M/T's it matters. Depending on the point in BG2 a blade could be anywhere from 3-8 caster levels ahead of a F/M/T.
Therefore in solo (where the cap is hit very early in the game), the FMT is MUCH stronger. In larger group, i would avoid the FMT and go for FT or FM
As for the unbalanced multi/dual, the problem with single classes is that there is almost no choice when picking companions if you want to avoid dual/multi classes :
- only 1 pure cleric (viconia) and 1 druid (Cernd)
- only 1 pure thief (Yoshimo)
- only 1 pure caster (edwin).
In BG2EE the situation is a little bit better with Neera and Hexxat.
Insofar as the long game, of course mage characters are stronger. I just can't agree that the middle of the game is irrelevant; some of the most difficult battles are in SoA. And the bard buffs matter in a party that can take good advantage of them.
I currently play an evil cleric/mage multi and till now (BG1) this is much more versatile then a bard. I have good possibilitys to buff/debuff in fights aswell. I can use alot of items. I have a strong progression through the game.
In my opinion the concept of a bard is nice but the execution in BG is bad. I wouldn't call it "micro management" i would rather call it "going for borderline tactics".. which is always a sign that something is not right with that class.
Oh, I'm not saying that caster level is irrelevant to bards. Just Mages. Damage is not the best thing that any mage could, or should, be doing with their spells, they have crowd control, buffs that render entire swathes of enemies utterly useless, and Save or Sucks that basically win the combat so the mage can put their feet up whilst their
lowly peonsFighters clean up.The level 8 spell you want to look out for is Simulacrum, not Horrid Wilting, because it calls up precisely the most dangerous thing in the game - another high level Fighter/Mage/Thief.
And duration? Improved Haste basically has a "duration" of "One Combat". If it takes you more than ten rounds fighting at double APR in order to win, you're probably doing it wrong, if you're getting into multiple fights on a single casting of Improved Haste, either you're not managing your encounters very well, or you have the entire map memorised anyway.
Suggesting that F/M/Ts don't get their "best" spells is disingenuous. The F/M/T's "best" spells are level 8s, the Bard's "best" spells are level 6. The Fighter/Mage/Thief isn't a worse character just because he gets much, much better if you remove the XP cap any more than he's a worse character in that he completely outclasses the Bard as he gets to higher XP.
2. Bard song being a small bonus. Yes the basic bard song is, but Enhanced Bard Song is definitely a big boost. So is the Skald song.
So are Snares. And free True Sight. And picking locks. And disarming traps. And indeed, importantly, so is having an extra person who is "actually useful" in your party instead of a thief.
There's a limit to how great it can be to have one person whose job is to sit on their thumb yodelling in order to ensure that everybody else has an easier time.... compensating for the fact that one person in the party is sitting on their thumb yodelling.
3. Spins being pointless. They're very useful early->mid game, and later with Improved Haste they're still there if you run out. Defensive Spin is also a rather large boost.
Offensive Spins are passably adequate compared to the major advantage of "Being a Fighter". You spend 99% of your time at 1/2 to 1-1/2 attacks fewer, then get a few rounds per day at "kind of like a Fighter except now they have Haste available and that makes you sad". You're also advancing at Thief THAC0, which means you cap at 10 THAC0 and advance slower than Clerics, of all things.
Defensive Spins are, at best, mediocre. 5 AC robes are available from Chapter 2 Baldur's Gate, the Robe of Vecna is available from Chapter 2 Baldur's Gate 2.
They're telling you something. They're telling you that the BG universe hates bards and wants to deny them nice things. Early-game, defensive spin is worse than having a robe. Mid-game, defensive spin is kinda pointless because you have stoneskin, mirror image and it's still better to have a robe anyway. Late game AC is pretty well pointless, since you have ways of becoming absolutely immune to your enemy's attacks anyway, but at least you're wearing the Vecna I assume (unless you gave it to somebody more useful), so nobody can interrupt your spells anyway.
The point is simply bards are good and fun.
Hey, glad you enjoy them. Don't let mechanical issues stop you from picking whichever class you find fun. I still prefer Barbarians to Berserkers after all. I played a little of RR before I started on challenge games with no mods enabled, and what I saw was a bit improvement. The Bard was basically supposed to mirror the F/M/T with tradeoffs (a few too many tradeoffs in BG unfortunately), and getting up to level 8 spells helps keep them from falling by the wayside quite so badly. Losing HLA traps was a pretty brutal loss for them though, since that was their only access to Timestop.
The only non-direct damage dealing aggresive spell which is awesome and worth mentioning is, in my opinion, Finger of Death (in tandem with Greater Malison).
Also, on a mathematical level- your core damage spells (Horrid Wilting, Skull Trap, etc.) scale better than HP does after level 10. HP gains for human/demi-human enemies plateau at level 10, but the best damage spells continue to grow linearly until level 20, so they're doing more %health damage to enemies in the late game. If you're a high level mage, absolutely go for damage spells.
Also, for me, I always play multi-classed characters because I like the variation and power that you get from it. Playing a Blade is interesting because I still get that variation while playing something non-standard. From a powergaming route there is no compelling reason to choose the Bard over the many other options you have, though. I wish that Blades got Fighter THAC0 or THAC0 bonuses like the Swashbuckler, though. That would make them much more serious contenders without breaking the class.
F/M/T (heck, anything involving F/M) is, in my opinion, super cheesy. It's probably great fun too, I won't deny that. I just think it's silly to claim that a perfectly good, fun and usable class somehow has issues just because it doesn't live up to the same amount of cheese. I think this is where we find our basic disagreement. I don't measure its quality by holding it up to the kensages, the ranger/clerics or a F/M/Ts. I simply ask: does the class work well in the game? I found that yes, it does.
If this was a thread discussing which class is best, I would definitely pick a different class, but it's not. OK, I will address this single point because I just can't help myself.
Defensive Spin lowers your AC by 1 per level up to a maximum of 10. This is on top of your AC from dex and armor. It actually stacks with Enhanced Bard Song as well so if you're going to sing, might as well spin first and you get a whopping -20 to your AC. My Haer'Dalis is currently in his Melodic Chain, which sets his AC to -1. Spin and song get his AC down to -21. This is with 17 dex, mind you.
Melodic Chain alone gives you better AC than the robe. Gaunlets of AC 3 obviously give better AC. Heck, a lot of things do. On top of that you can get up to -10 from Defensive Spin early in the game. Later on, -21 AC is still very good. I've just been through Watcher's Keep, and AC isn't even irrelevant there. It isn't irrelevant in all of SoA.
And to play a mage and not get level 9 and 10 (HLA) spells would be maddening!
Unless you're playing a solo game, or a game with only 1 or 2 NPCs, I don't see the point in a F/M/T. (F/M, F/T, or M/T all seem like more fun IMO.)
I have no idea if a Blade is stronger/weaker overall than a F/M/T with the same amount of experience. And I don't care. I like the faster leveling of the Blade, the special abilities, and the bard stronghold over what a F/M/T has to offer (though the mage one is quite fun as well).
Is a Blade weak? Well, my level 28 Blade has THAC0 of -4/-2 (dual-wielding Crom Faeyr and Scarlet Ninja-To) without any spells or OS active, and has racked up 38% of all kills (32% of experience) in SoA. He killed Kangaax with Azuredge. So he seems to be holding his own well quite well so far (currently he's in Suldanessellar). Would a F/M/T with the same amount of experience be 'more powerful' or 'more useful' (or whatever)? *shrug*