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SCS or BP. What is your AI enhancement of choice?

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Comments

  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 2,890
    Neither, vanilla AI is good enough for me
    Neither. I use only my own modifications.

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,704
    Both, I use BWP to make them compatible
    Sometimes I'm surprised at the epic levels of thread necromancy we're reaching in the forums :)

    EudaemoniumCrevsDaak
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    The darkest of rituals, taught to us by Winski Perorate.

    mlneveseCrevsDaak
  • WilburWilbur Member Posts: 1,173
    SCS
    SCS feels perfect for me. I'm using it for the first time, but I love the extra challenge it provides.

  • mackosmackos Member Posts: 188
    Awong124 said:

    I like being able to use cheese tactics.

    SCS won't stop your cheese gamestyle, it doesn't work that way

  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    SCS
    syllog said:

    @Demivrgvs :
    I just wanted to say 'cool stuff' on the Spell Revisions mod and getting it ~scs integrated. I'd argue about some specific changes -- but definitely a community service with some neat ideas-Thanks! :)

    (actually: how hard is it to extract the files to play with without loading the mod; I'd love to work on some myself?)

    Not sure what you mean. What do you want to do exactly? Edit SR files for your own personal use?

    If you want to argue about some specific change feel free to do so within our forums, players feedback always play a big role when it comes to update/improve Revisions mods.

  • ScotGaymerScotGaymer Member Posts: 526
    edited December 2013
    SCS
    I know this is a necroed thread but I voted lol.

    I have caveat's to my vote though.

    I voted SCS because as a mod it is functionally well put together and seems to be relatively bug free (for such a large mod) and in BG1 it makes the game the right mix of challenging and fun. In BG2 however it makes the game insanely hard and I avoid installing it there.

    I've been playing with the BP mod, and I stopped because its really really buggy. Or at least it was. Rasaad kept trying to cast Fireball and Lightning. It was strange and annoying.

    Eventually I just continued the game with vanilla AI because even tho it sucked at least it worked.

    Post edited by ScotGaymer on
  • horredtheplaguehorredtheplague Member, Developer Posts: 178
    BP

    I've been playing with the BP mod, and I stopped because its really really buggy. Or at least it was. Rasaad kept trying to cast Fireball and Lightning. It was strange and annoying.

    That's probably a 'was', and to boot the BPv181 releases made this a lot more compatible with other AI mods inc SCS. I have about 5 or 6 minor bugs reported since last release, and they're fixed for the next version.

    Now--as BP proper is enemy-only AI I'm curious how it would influence a party member like Rasaad in this way. It doesn't add scripts to joinable NPC's, nor does it touch any of the DPLAYER scripts. Completely certain some other factor wasn't involved?

  • ScotGaymerScotGaymer Member Posts: 526
    edited December 2013
    SCS
    Well when I had it installed I had this bug where it would give me the entire blurb for fireball or lightning or some other spell with rasaad while in combat expressed as dialogue.

    It was really weird.

    Was defo BPAI.

    The only mods I had installed was some of the tweaks and BPAI. lol. And it stopped happening when I used the normal party AI scripts and uninstalled it.

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,248
    Neither, vanilla AI is good enough for me
    I'm bad enough at the game as it is.

  • syllogsyllog Member Posts: 158
    edited January 2014
    SCS
    If you'll forgive a little necromancy (my School of choice & why lose good discussion):

    What are the differences between SCS & BP really?
    I almost never hear anyone talk about BP -- does anyone have concrete examples of AI differences or of generally different goals of the mods?

    Post edited by syllog on
  • horredtheplaguehorredtheplague Member, Developer Posts: 178
    BP
    syllog said:

    If you'll forgive a little necromancy (my School of choice & why lose good discussion):

    What are the differences between SCS & BP really?
    I almost never hear anyone talk about BP -- does anyone have concrete examples of AI differences or no of generally different goals of the mods?

    You haven't heard much of BP because:
    1) It's a lot older than SCS, existing in some form since 2003
    2) Its lazy, no-good author retired from BG modding for 6 years & did nothing for BP. This is when SCS was created & rose to fame.
    3) Mod promotion was always better on G3 than SHS, as a rule of thumb. (sorry Liam, it just..is).

    SCS is more modernized, with a very nice program for building scripts on the fly. It had much more accumulated knowledge to draw on in its composition as well. BP was a pioneer of the olden days. It did several things no other AI mod had done before. And AI was only one of many things the original pre-weidu BP accomplished. e.g. The very first versions of the Detectable Spells system, barring some limited usages in Ascension scripts, appeared in BP's scripts. I extracted the code for BP to make the very first public DS package (quickly improved upon by weidu experts of the day/age, and now maintained by Ardanis). I've since gone back through BP to make it compatible with the newest standalone DS version, which was an easy task considering what mod parented it. ;)


    The AI Itself:

    The biggest differences in the 2 mods, as I see it, are in their underlying theories. In SCS the opponents are typically more brutal, more machine-like efficient in their tactics. Their attacks are highly coordinated, well-ordered and difficult to overcome. However, they tend to do the exact same things every time you encounter them. You can have two dozen mage battles in the same game with exact same casting progressions.

    BP has similar intelligent AI checks and casting orders, but adds something SCS doesn't: a slight element of randomness. Each spell check comes with the logical checks, but also w/ a random roll. If it's not met, the spell is ignored for this round. Same with enemy targeting--somewhat random. This can give some extreme cases where opponents become too easy, or even too hard---but in the majority of cases it's right around par. This supposedly is to account for the "human element": that we don't always make the perfect choices all the time when under pressure (i.e. combat). I'm sure we've all seen this on the user end, when your party gets handed back to you on a platter because you chose B instead of A. Just because the creatures are computer-generated as part of a computer game does not mean they all come with CPU's for brains by default. In user terms, this makes BP a better choice for repeated gameplay runs (unless you prefer the familiarity of same-thing-every-time).

    BP also does a lot to balance characteristics (STR, HP, etc) on individual creatures, and not as a blanket operation (same amounts to everybody, like in Mix Mod e.g.) It fixes errors in creature files, where they were found. It makes sure vanilla casters have proper spell allotments, instead of (e.g.) a few high level spells and a half-dozen magic missiles only. You'd be shocked at how short of the mark the original files fell, if you take a close look. I don't believe SCS handles much/any of this. It might add spells to casters, but that would be about it I think.

    The latest versions of BP were set up to take SCS into account as much as I could. I split BP into dozens of smaller components so to some degree the user can mix & match the two mods. SCS on the other hand accounts for BP only in order to overwrite its scripts/components from-the-inside with its own, so there's only so much compatibility possible under this equation.

    And as I've now played almost all the game of BG2EE with BP installed, it's safe to say it's compatible. I do have some fixes on my end, was just holding off to see if anything else broke down before passing along a new version.

    syllogAbelmlnevesedomeplsffs
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,704
    Both, I use BWP to make them compatible
    @horredtheplague So you're going to release a fully EE compatible version of BP?

  • horredtheplaguehorredtheplague Member, Developer Posts: 178
    BP
    mlnevese said:

    @horredtheplague So you're going to release a fully EE compatible version of BP?

    I made a release a couple months ago (w/in a few days of release) that was fully compatible w/ BG2EE, in the sense that it installs fine & doesn't break the game (AFAIK). As forementioned, I just had a chance to test much of it in-game, over the past couple weeks. It works fine, from Ilyich & Crew in Jonny's Dungeon to the 'slightly-tampered-with' Gaider/IEEAIS alternate ending(s) for ToB.

    I just never made it "officially" compatible. Why not? Because I'd rather start from scratch than try and overhaul a decade-old mod, write enhancements for files that I haven't even looked at in as long as 7+ years. Building on the BP Series is about all the time I have to offer, and that only in segments. I'll still address bugs, but don't expect new features. These might happen anyways, but only on my own time when I have the inclination. No promises made = no more folders stamped "foot-in-mouth" atop my work stack.

    I've learned a lot about game-making, since the days when I wrote BP. Much of that has nothing to do with scripting. Still, I'd approach this subject (generic AI) a different way, in the present age. Already have some ideas catalogued. Still slightly randomized (for re-playability's sake), but based on a more novel premise. Things like "personality scripting", and on-the-fly random &/or situational script re-assignments, instead of strict over-reliance on random number generation. I'd pay more attention to specific encounters, less to generic situations like random spawns.

    More enhancing, less replacing, when possible. When it comes to combat AI, that rarely is possible. The title of this poll/thread stands as proof to that claim. But maybe my recent efforts in compatability (and making it known in this forum) will add more votes to the "both" category, since this thread has been successfully necro'ed. I assure you that BWP is not "necessary" to install both mods. However, Leonardo Watson spent a lot of time specifically researching these two mods for the BWPv13 release (probably more than I did). At the least it should be "recommended" to use in a BG2 install.

    Several relevant posts about this on SHS forums should apply to BG2EE as well. By this, I mean things like component compatibility (even preferences). I worked out a suggested install order and selection when I made a BPv181 compatible version of BWS installer. The order should work fine on this game too. But that list is just my opinion. I set up the new BP to allow for user choice between other AI mods (not just SCS), as much as possible.

    General Rules of Thumb: Don't install both versions of similar components. More generic = less compatible. Choose either BP or SCS spellcasters not both (Priests & Mages; last time I checked SCS made it impossible to mix & match these two). If you use it, install BP-Ascension (& Improved components) before SCS. [Otherwise, SCS won't offer its additions.] Install the rest of BP after SCS, because BP at least attempts to be compatible (perfection is utterly impossible, especially in this case). There are no guarantees offered nor warranties renderable, for strange in-game behavior caused as result of installing these mods together. Especially if you didn't follow the rules of thumb. ;)


    What's coming next for BP is just fixes for issues spotted by myself and other users. A couple Tactics components were breaking/not installing, so I addressed those. A couple key npc's weren't always dying, so I fixed those as well. I also fixed a couple wonky AI routines (e.g. Tolgerias), simply because they bothered me. I'll probably release my latest version in a week or so, pending free time to finish testing. Just want to finish the last part of SoA (halfway through UD in current game). In particular, I want to check Suldanessallar component, haven't seen it in ages. Already tested all of ToB w/ BP components. And all my testing has been done on BG2EE not BG2.


    Available since 2004 from the SHS BG2 downloads section: http://www.shsforums.net/files/category/37-big-picture/ Use it at your liberty, either game. Kindly report bugs in the BP forum at same locale (and please specify which game you're playing).

    mlnevesesyllogAbeldomeplsffs
  • darkly180darkly180 Member Posts: 19
    I run both BP and SCS, but also want to add that BP is the only way to have Ascension on BG2EEE at the moment. Weimer's version is still being updated by @Cuv so if you can't wait then BP-Ascension will get you there.

  • CuvCuv Member, Developer Posts: 2,535
    I can recommend BP-Ascension to get you the working mod. It doesn't take into account the new content with the NPC's.... but if you don't care about that, BP-Ascension is a good choice.

  • horredtheplaguehorredtheplague Member, Developer Posts: 178
    BP
    A new version of BP (v181_4610) is now available, fixing several reported bugs and others I saw while testing this on a BG2EE install.

  • GodGod Member Posts: 1,150
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