You know, I understand all this loath for Jon... When a man is such a badass villain he gets used to it. I mean, there are some bad guys that are SUCH dicks that you could not help yourself... you just hate them, to the core! He lied to you... he said he would be able to unlock your power, make you stronger; he even manipulated you in destroying the SHADOW THIEVES for him, depending on the choices you made (and by the gods, the demise of such an organization is a feat to be noticed, even in the cannon lore)... but he just con you; he made a trap for you in the asylum, forced a "friend" of yours into betryal (that one really hurt, tell the truth), bottled you, ripped off your very soul and then, when you were laying on the ground, moaning like a defenseless little whore, fresh out of violation, he called you a NOBODY and send you away like garbage... After that he went to work on his selfish revenge that had nothing to do with Bahaal, or your precious inheriting and all that; this stuff, this plot going around your ego, it is nothing to him; just a step in his schemes and machinations. That is why you are so eager to hunt him down and kill him... and SO frustrated when you realize you can't: killing him will pull you and all your dear friends to the depths of hell. And what an evil man like him would be doing in hell? Suffering eternal damnation? No way! Why, if someone so POWERFUL could assemble an army of demons and try to destroy you and usurp your place... again? So you can kill him. Finally you do. And that is soooo damn pleasant, because that fella was such a jerk... well, that is the ultimate villain: someone so awful that not even the players could endure him. I know your feelings: he used to haunt my darkest dreams too... sometimes he still does.
You know, I understand all this loath for Jon... When a man is such a badass villain he gets used to it. I mean, there are some bad guys that are SUCH dicks that you could not help yourself... you just hate them, to the core! He lied to you... he said he would be able to unlock your power, make you stronger; he even manipulated you in destroying the SHADOW THIEVES for him, depending on the choices you made (and by the gods, the demise of such an organization is a feat to be noticed, even in the cannon lore)... but he just con you; he made a trap for you in the asylum, forced a "friend" of yours into betrial (that one really hurt, tell the truth), bottled you, ripped off your very soul and then, when you were laying on the ground, moaning like a defenseless little whore, fresh out of violation, he called you a NOBODY and send you away like garbage... After that he went to work on his selfish revenge that had nothing to do with Bahaal, or your precious inheriting and all that; this stuff, this plot going around your ego, it is nothing to him; just a step in his schemes and machinations. That is why you are so eager to hunt him down and kill him... and SO frustrated when you realize you can't: killing him will pull you and all your dear friends to the depths of hell. And what an evil man like him would be doing in hell? Suffering eternal damnation? No way! Why, if someone so POWERFUL could assemble an army of demons and try to destroy you and usurp your place... again? So you can kill him. Finally you do. And that is soooo damn pleasant, because that fella was such a jerk... well, that is the ultimate villain: someone so awful that not even the players could endure him. I know your feelings: he used to haunt my darkest dreams too... sometimes he still does.
I agree with everything written here and my dreams still suck Well actually they rock just gloomy.
Bah, I bore with JI. He is all wind, and nothing to back it up.
Give me a real villain, with real teeth and the power to back it up. Someone who knows what power is, and how to use it! A real rule-the-world-or-bust type!
I never had anyone betray me. I never did anything against the Shadow Thieves (I used them to get what I wanted). I would have left Amn if the Devs had given me the option - with JI in Spellhold and that irritable little brat sealed there with him, things were looking good!
JI never did anything remotely bad to me.
He didn't come close to matching my brother, Sarevok! After all, Sarevok killed my foster father! And slandered my good name! And sent assassins to kill me!
JI?
He knocked me out, and did some experiments. Whoop-dee-doo!
That is what irritates me the most - I AM NOT INTERESTED IN SOME TWO-BIT, ILLUSIONS-OF-GRANDEUER EGOMANIAC!
I have other things, more pressing things, that occupy my time than to take an interest in some washed-up elf.
Damn the Devs for not giving me more options - like going straight to ToB without ever having to follow after some crazed elf! Let JI rot to death in Spellhold, for all I care! The best revenge, ever!
Now THAT would be a great option! After all, it is not like JI is going to be doing anything about it, seeing as he is locked up in Spellhold.
JI really is no threat to anything or anyone. He fails miserably without my divine soul, fading away to dust in some corner of Spellhold, cackling about how he could of been a contender.
He is nothing without me.
So I do the one thing he never, ever could imagine : I ignore him, like the insect that he is.
The thing that gets me the most of Irenicus is that he underestimates you even in the end... he does whatever he wants and you're always just an insect for him, nothing more...
Because he is a loser; he is so full of himself, that he can't see beyond his own personal mirror. He can't imagine that anyone (or anything, for that matter) could be more powerful than he is.
His illusions of grandeur are, of course, shattered. And still he is unable to accept reality, and instead rails against his fate.
Irenicus reminds me so much of Orochimaru from Naruto / Naruto: Shippuuden. Both were exiled due to their forbiiden experiments, both want so badly to destroy their homeland/hometown, and both have a tendency to get beaten, only to return once more with a scheme of gaining power,,, such a shame that Jon Irenicus couldn´t be bothered to search for ToB Bhaalspawn - or he knew of their existence, but had not the power to capture them as easily as he did to player character.
I guess he would try that. Or go after somebody beyond "the five", since there was at least "a score" of your equals. He choose you because you were at the same time powerfull and vulnerable: you were not scheming to gain power, nor gathering an army or so... you were wandering on the road, making your capture very easy. But he was not that dependent of you; he allowed you to chase him to spellhold and arranged a series of situations were your life was under threat ("All designed to test your potential"). So, if you failed/died he would not bother himself... he would just go after some of your siblings and solve his problem...
@WebShaman It's just a game. Irenicus is bad only because it is a game, to let you win. He has 18 Int, in a proper PnP game, he could cast Divination spells to always knows your weaknesses and your location and instakill you with Chain Contingency 3 Horrid Wiltings or adapt his strategy to beat you whatever you throw at him.
But it's a game, the goal is to win, you must let the player kill the bad guy.
You know, if you create a level 1 Thief in BG1, then if you put a lots of traps at Elminster's location on the map east of the ambush (Reach the place, try to put a trap, go back to the ambush's map, rest, redo it until you got 7 traps here) then attack him, you will instakill Elminster and gains 27k XP.
Does that means Elminster is a complete sh*t mage because he doesn't have Stoneskin active ? Doesn't have any Contigency spells or Spell Sequencer ? No, it is just a scripted game.
But that's what makes it playable ! In a PnP game, Irenicus could teleport to you in Baldur's Gate, enslave you and take your soul in something like 5 rounds or less. But it would be uninteresting and unplayable.
I always wished an alternate evil end for SOA. I know it is unrealistic and it would screw up TOB plot, but why not to include it, just for fun, like they did in NN2? Something like, if you choose an evil alignment, help Bodhi and such, at the end you could agre to help Irenicus in his plan so he would give back your soul in exchange (he would not need it after becoming a god). Maybe it could fit in the expansion, why not? You have your essence back, so you remain alive and a bhaalspawn; you could go through the plot facing the consequences of what you did, hering the news of the destruction of the elven city and the rise of a new evil god...
Yeah, but then Jon would go all "I no longer need your services as sellswords, its time to start experimenting on you again" and you'd have to kill him anyway.
I guess he would try that. Or go after somebody beyond "the five", since there was at least "a score" of your equals. He choose you because you were at the same time powerfull and vulnerable: you were not scheming to gain power, nor gathering an army or so... you were wandering on the road, making your capture very easy. But he was not that dependent of you; he allowed you to chase him to spellhold and arranged a series of situations were your life was under threat ("All designed to test your potential"). So, if you failed/died he would not bother himself... he would just go after some of your siblings and solve his problem...
JI didn't have the TIME to do what you propose. He was pressed for time, as he admitted in Spellhold. The curse was in advanced stages by that time, apparently.
As for not "scheming to gain power" - huh? Maybe your Bhaalspawn wasn't, but mine was! I suppose you play your Bhaalspawn as a reluctant milksop, or the Gods forbid, some goody-good shoes type! Mine is relishing in his legacy!
He has 18 Int, in a proper PnP game, he could cast Divination spells to always knows your weaknesses and your location and instakill you with Chain Contingency 3 Horrid Wiltings or adapt his strategy to beat you whatever you throw at him.
With non-detection, he wouldn't find anything out - and it is not certain if he can do such against someone with a Divine soul. Besides, there are easier ways to find out where someone is - just hire some spies (as I assume JI did, or summon some Invis Stalkers, Air Elemental, etc).
What is never explained is HOW JI came to know about you - your location, that you are a Bhaalspawn, and that such a soul could save him from his curse.
JI will not instakill you, btw. He NEEDS your Divine soul, remember? His curse is advanced, and he is pressured by time. And iirc, the curse reduces your stats as time goes by (withering away...). So I am not so sure that his Int is 18 anymore...at least, not until he gets that Divine soul.
And he only has an 18 Int! Mine is higher (tomes from BG, remember?). So I should be able to easily out-think him at every turn.
As for killing El - are you sure that is the *real* El, and not some sort of Projection? Clone? Simulacrum? The problem with killing Wizards...is that it may not actually *be* the real Wizard!
An added note - just because it is a game, doesn't mean that things shouldn't make sense! To maintain immersion, things shouldn't be haphazardly put together!
It really does gall me that there is no option to skip Spellhold for a neutral or evil Bhaalspawn. The game automatically assumes that you will give chase - either out of a need to exact revenge against JI, or to save Imoen. You never actually get a choice to just go another direction! One is railroaded into Spellhold. It breaks immersion, and is a glaring mistake IMHO.
Yeah, you miss out on a lot of XP - and SoA is pretty much over with (unless they wished to have JI somehow get another Divine soul, or come after you somehow, which seems very contrived at that point, also breaking immersion).
But so what?
So you go directly from there into ToB. Not all that bad - I mean, they did it with Watcher's Keep, right? I slaughtered DM before I went to Spellhold, fer cryin' out loud! Firkraag and the Shadow Dragon met their bloody ends before Spellhold!
By the time I was in Spellhold, I would have whooped JI's scripted behind, if the game would have let me! I was higher level by then than he was (or close, and with my collected party, WAAAAAAAY over JI's level!)
I am also wondering how a Wish spell can kill the Ravenger. Seems pretty iffy to me.
Yeah, I know...but then I miss the Underdark, etc.
And yeah, I know that I can even skip Spellhold with the console, but I think that may mess up the game some.
Anyway, I am just commenting on how the story railroads you at that point, and why in some cases it makes no sense. You would think that JI would have a contigency plan...
I know that I'm pushing necromancer powers that rivals larloch right now (4 years old yeesh). But it just really vexes me how you can say "levels arn't everything" then bring up charnames level at the start of bg2. I literally just made an account over it - lol.
Speaking of larloch you make his reflection sound like he's untouchable by spells, which is simply not the case i would argue. Lower resistance and pierce shield state explicitly state how protections/reflections dont work on them. so much for his immunity to cold/magic/whatever else. And that turning is great, shame it doesn't work on spells not directed at the caster though.
I mean Irenicus does pretty much everything you're saying all these other "super powerful god-like mages" do (creating spells, making magical items to prolong life/amplify his powers, relationship with a demigod, naturally born incredibly powerful). He just seems to really get screwed over by the bhaalspawn - i would go as far as to say other deities were involved in his downfall (Aiding the bhaalspawn). A new god or a god getting replaced has ~always~ meant trouble for everyone, gods and mortals. At least as far as i can remember.
Comments
He lied to you... he said he would be able to unlock your power, make you stronger; he even manipulated you in destroying the SHADOW THIEVES for him, depending on the choices you made (and by the gods, the demise of such an organization is a feat to be noticed, even in the cannon lore)... but he just con you; he made a trap for you in the asylum, forced a "friend" of yours into betryal (that one really hurt, tell the truth), bottled you, ripped off your very soul and then, when you were laying on the ground, moaning like a defenseless little whore, fresh out of violation, he called you a NOBODY and send you away like garbage... After that he went to work on his selfish revenge that had nothing to do with Bahaal, or your precious inheriting and all that; this stuff, this plot going around your ego, it is nothing to him; just a step in his schemes and machinations.
That is why you are so eager to hunt him down and kill him... and SO frustrated when you realize you can't: killing him will pull you and all your dear friends to the depths of hell. And what an evil man like him would be doing in hell? Suffering eternal damnation? No way! Why, if someone so POWERFUL could assemble an army of demons and try to destroy you and usurp your place... again?
So you can kill him. Finally you do. And that is soooo damn pleasant, because that fella was such a jerk... well, that is the ultimate villain: someone so awful that not even the players could endure him. I know your feelings: he used to haunt my darkest dreams too... sometimes he still does.
Give me a real villain, with real teeth and the power to back it up. Someone who knows what power is, and how to use it! A real rule-the-world-or-bust type!
I never had anyone betray me. I never did anything against the Shadow Thieves (I used them to get what I wanted). I would have left Amn if the Devs had given me the option - with JI in Spellhold and that irritable little brat sealed there with him, things were looking good!
JI never did anything remotely bad to me.
He didn't come close to matching my brother, Sarevok! After all, Sarevok killed my foster father! And slandered my good name! And sent assassins to kill me!
JI?
He knocked me out, and did some experiments. Whoop-dee-doo!
That is what irritates me the most - I AM NOT INTERESTED IN SOME TWO-BIT, ILLUSIONS-OF-GRANDEUER EGOMANIAC!
I have other things, more pressing things, that occupy my time than to take an interest in some washed-up elf.
Damn the Devs for not giving me more options - like going straight to ToB without ever having to follow after some crazed elf! Let JI rot to death in Spellhold, for all I care! The best revenge, ever!
Now THAT would be a great option! After all, it is not like JI is going to be doing anything about it, seeing as he is locked up in Spellhold.
JI really is no threat to anything or anyone. He fails miserably without my divine soul, fading away to dust in some corner of Spellhold, cackling about how he could of been a contender.
He is nothing without me.
So I do the one thing he never, ever could imagine : I ignore him, like the insect that he is.
His illusions of grandeur are, of course, shattered. And still he is unable to accept reality, and instead rails against his fate.
But it's a game, the goal is to win, you must let the player kill the bad guy.
You know, if you create a level 1 Thief in BG1, then if you put a lots of traps at Elminster's location on the map east of the ambush (Reach the place, try to put a trap, go back to the ambush's map, rest, redo it until you got 7 traps here) then attack him, you will instakill Elminster and gains 27k XP.
Does that means Elminster is a complete sh*t mage because he doesn't have Stoneskin active ? Doesn't have any Contigency spells or Spell Sequencer ? No, it is just a scripted game.
But that's what makes it playable ! In a PnP game, Irenicus could teleport to you in Baldur's Gate, enslave you and take your soul in something like 5 rounds or less. But it would be uninteresting and unplayable.
As for not "scheming to gain power" - huh? Maybe your Bhaalspawn wasn't, but mine was! I suppose you play your Bhaalspawn as a reluctant milksop, or the Gods forbid, some goody-good shoes type! Mine is relishing in his legacy! With non-detection, he wouldn't find anything out - and it is not certain if he can do such against someone with a Divine soul. Besides, there are easier ways to find out where someone is - just hire some spies (as I assume JI did, or summon some Invis Stalkers, Air Elemental, etc).
What is never explained is HOW JI came to know about you - your location, that you are a Bhaalspawn, and that such a soul could save him from his curse.
JI will not instakill you, btw. He NEEDS your Divine soul, remember? His curse is advanced, and he is pressured by time. And iirc, the curse reduces your stats as time goes by (withering away...). So I am not so sure that his Int is 18 anymore...at least, not until he gets that Divine soul.
And he only has an 18 Int! Mine is higher (tomes from BG, remember?). So I should be able to easily out-think him at every turn.
As for killing El - are you sure that is the *real* El, and not some sort of Projection? Clone? Simulacrum? The problem with killing Wizards...is that it may not actually *be* the real Wizard!
An added note - just because it is a game, doesn't mean that things shouldn't make sense! To maintain immersion, things shouldn't be haphazardly put together!
It really does gall me that there is no option to skip Spellhold for a neutral or evil Bhaalspawn. The game automatically assumes that you will give chase - either out of a need to exact revenge against JI, or to save Imoen. You never actually get a choice to just go another direction! One is railroaded into Spellhold. It breaks immersion, and is a glaring mistake IMHO.
Yeah, you miss out on a lot of XP - and SoA is pretty much over with (unless they wished to have JI somehow get another Divine soul, or come after you somehow, which seems very contrived at that point, also breaking immersion).
But so what?
So you go directly from there into ToB. Not all that bad - I mean, they did it with Watcher's Keep, right? I slaughtered DM before I went to Spellhold, fer cryin' out loud! Firkraag and the Shadow Dragon met their bloody ends before Spellhold!
By the time I was in Spellhold, I would have whooped JI's scripted behind, if the game would have let me! I was higher level by then than he was (or close, and with my collected party, WAAAAAAAY over JI's level!)
I am also wondering how a Wish spell can kill the Ravenger. Seems pretty iffy to me.
And yeah, I know that I can even skip Spellhold with the console, but I think that may mess up the game some.
Anyway, I am just commenting on how the story railroads you at that point, and why in some cases it makes no sense. You would think that JI would have a contigency plan...
Speaking of larloch you make his reflection sound like he's untouchable by spells, which is simply not the case i would argue. Lower resistance and pierce shield state explicitly state how protections/reflections dont work on them. so much for his immunity to cold/magic/whatever else. And that turning is great, shame it doesn't work on spells not directed at the caster though.
I mean Irenicus does pretty much everything you're saying all these other "super powerful god-like mages" do (creating spells, making magical items to prolong life/amplify his powers, relationship with a demigod, naturally born incredibly powerful). He just seems to really get screwed over by the bhaalspawn - i would go as far as to say other deities were involved in his downfall (Aiding the bhaalspawn). A new god or a god getting replaced has ~always~ meant trouble for everyone, gods and mortals. At least as far as i can remember.