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Best class for a no reload BG1+BG2+ToB

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  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @MacHurto I think Horror early game, Horrid Wilting mid-late game. HW isn't that big a loss since you can melee stuff to death.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited March 2014
    MacHurto said:

    Ok, did a first run and died in the friendly arm inn. It seemed like the right path to take straight away RP wise. However, that wizard's magic missile kills a lv1 character on a heartbeat.

    Do you have a recommended path to take so you can level up more or less fast and not risking too much? Will try another fighter/mage called ElDelGas this time. And give him a bow and not dual wield.

    The encounter with Tarnesh is tough without some metagmaing, but it can be done at least without any 'unrealistic' preparations. In a journaled RP game that I have going I was able to have the party behave in a way that I feel the reaction was credible for being caught unawares, but where they did respond by using their wits to defeat him (read here). There was no preparation and they walked up to the entrance as they normally would. The moment Tarnesh turned hostile and began an incantation Monty, who from a RP vantage we could expect to be wary, went into stealth mode (just in case). The PC mage recognized the incantation as one that could be nothing but hostile in its effect, so he therefore fired the missile wand to disrupt the spell. Montaron then slipped behind Tarnesh to deliver a fatal backstab.

    Are you soloing or assembling a party? Because for me combat is much easier with a party than soloing.


  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 650
    edited March 2014

    @MacHurto I think Horror early game, Horrid Wilting mid-late game. HW isn't that big a loss since you can melee stuff to death.

    Skull trap and death spell also ones you might miss in BG2.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    JLee said:

    MacHurto I think Horror early game, Horrid Wilting mid-late game. HW isn't that big a loss since you can melee stuff to death.

    Skull trap and death spell also ones you might miss in BG2.
    Yes, Skull Trap being the best of those, 20d6 damage at level 20... It's insane, Death Spell is awesome in SoA, but it gets obsolete in ToB.

    MacHurto I think Horror early game, Horrid Wilting mid-late game. HW isn't that big a loss since you can melee stuff to death.

    You can take Incendiary Cloud, save level as Horrid Wilting, deals 1d4 instead of 1d6 per level, but it stays for a long time, it's amazingly good to kill Liches, since they are not immune to fire (unless it's a Elemental Lich) and they can't protect against level 8 AoE Cloud spells. Plus, if you have Fire Resistance over 120%, you can use two Incendiary Clouds, cast Improved Haste on yourself and regenerate from the Fire damage and a resistance over 100, and you can attack in melee while your enemies take (lots of) damage over time from the cloud.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Oh yeah, skull trap. I'd group that with HW, though - not as massive loss since you'll be meleeing stuff to death. Death spell is pretty great for removing summons and low level mobs, but not absolutely necessary.

    I think the loss of necromancy if worth the extra spells, FWIW.
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 650
    edited March 2014
    Agreed...
    Although there is no more elegant (and satisfying) solution to a room full of Umber Hulks than Death Spell :)

    poof
    4000 xp
    4000 xp
    4000 xp
    4000 xp
    4000 xp
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    edited March 2014
    @JLee‌ cloudkill does the same :-)
    @Lemernis‌ was planning on party but xzar&co gave me the finger. It was just me and Imoen. Reloaded and killed him with ease. i guess i was unlucky with attack and arrow damage. Disrupted the horror casting but didnt kill him before he magic missiled me to he Abyss. Oh well, at least I know that way irenicus withers and dies. Or takes on Sarevok. Now, that is a good story to be told :-)

    Thanks everyone for the comments! I had never realised how much neceomancy i always use. If I get to those levels I will change tactics. Right now, my worry is getting to Lv2 alive :-D
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    MacHurto said:

    @JLee‌ cloudkill does the same :-)

    Cloudkill are not lethal anymore pver 4 HD, and IIRC Umber Hulks have 5 HD. Still, lots of creatures have a HD lower than 4, in vanilla, TorGal had 1 HD, so you could kill him with just one Cloudkill. Aec'Letec on BG1 has a 1 HD too, so one Cloudkill is enough to kill him (Cloudkill lasts one turn =10 rounds, Aec'Letec has 90 MR, so it should affect him once to kill him).
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    edited March 2014
    @creevsdaak are you sure about this? I have instakilled all umber hulks I found in my BG2 EE run with a wand of cloudkill :-?
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    Umberhulks most certainly do die instantly to cloud-kill. That's how I get to TorGal everytime :) Open door, cloudkill, close door. Done. On another note, I'd like to see a HD table for monsters, as I always wondered which monsters are which HD.

    Back to the topic, my favorite power character is a dual-classed fighter/thief if you are using a party. give him grand-mastery in long-swords and then dual class him to thief for ultra backstab power :) Max him in strength, dexterity, and constitution. Put the boots of speed and cloak of non-detection on him and hit/run backstab your way to victory. Also keep him loaded up with potions of invisibility and the sandthiefs ring for those situations where you need to back-stab and go invisible again to escape.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    @MacHurto well, I certainly kill Umber hulks either in melee or with Death spell so I don't know for sure :p
    Cloudkill is mostly powerful because it deals damage over time, which is nice if you exploit doors for that (same goes for Incendiary Cloud, Ice Storm, Death Fog and others), using a Wand of Cloudkill, closing the door and letting your enemies die, it's a safe strategy at least.
    In BG1 Cloudkill is overpowered, since there are many places with doors to cause DOT (damage over time) or you can turn invisible and let you enemies in the cloud.
    For BG2 Cloudkill is lethal for mages, you cast Cloudkill twice near them and they can't cast spells, nor protect themselves against Cloudkill, and they have few HP, so they die after several rounds with two Cloudkills.
    In ToB it's still useful if you use it correctly (8 Cloudkill stacked in the same place and you can kill all the foes that aren't immune to Poison Damage).
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    Yes Fighter/Thief is wonderful! My first full playthrough up to Godhood, was with an elven F/T. She was a killer.

    Also interested in monster HD. I recall using the wand of cloudkill in chateau Irenicus in room where shadow thieves and a vampire are battling. (this is the room adjoining what I would call the "throne room") Everyone except the protected shadow thief battlemage, but including the vamire died...
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    Yea Crevs, but Cloudkill kills certain monsters, including Umber Hulks, instantly in the same manner as death spell.
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    edited March 2014
    1- bgee is quite easy to do no-reload. Mainly because most fights can be skipped and some items (wands potions) completely break the few remaining ones. Furthermore, the critical path is so short that memorizing all traps and tactics is very easy
    2- early soa is the hardest part : the key is to know in which order to tackle the quests. Mages fight are to be avoided at all cost before you have ways to protect efficiently, the easy quests are circus, copper coronet, slaver compound, free market, umar, xzar quest, thieve guild, the mainquest. This will gives you 1.5 Mxp almost risk-free.
    3- from there you can tackle the harder quests (fierkgraag, astral prison,...). But you'd better be cautious.
    4- Once you are done with chapter 2 you have 3mxp and hla levels. From there the rest of soa is a complete joke since that game was not designed with hla in mind. To be perfectly safe, just summon a planetar in each area and watch him slaughter everything effortlessly
    5- tob depends on your character. With my sorceror it was extremely easy but it would defintely be harder with no arcane magic.

    Final note : exploiting is absolutely not necessary. Some classes (sorceror being the most obvious) have extremely powerful combos which are perfectly legit (time stop, improve alacrity. Time stop + shapeshifting) and which remove all risk from the game.

    Even roleplaying is possible : i did the run with resting restrictions (no rest in cloakwood mines, no rest in chateau irenicus,...once you reach hla and wish, it is anyway irrelevant) and with little to no prebuffing (maybe just spell immunity for a few traps before getting the staff of the magi) unless when scouting makes it possible.
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 650
    The trick with a Sorcerer is to have a strategy; to know which spells you are going to take at each level and coordinate your overall gameplan with your spell progression.

    With that precondition, I feel a solo sorcerer would be the easiest no-reload class (for me). In that spirit, I have started a DD to try it out :D

    And this time @mumumomo‌ I will be taking Spider Spawn for sure :)

    @MacHurto‌ How is your game going?
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    @JLee‌ well, survived to Lv2 (by ditching NPCs when giving quests) and killed tarnesh or whatever his name is so doing better :-D

    Best moments:
    - ditch group to talk to that guy in beregost inn whose kid has died. Then messing the answers and get him to attack me. Run around the inn talking to my npcs when he was a bit far to join again so we beat him up. Rolepæayed it as mates go for a drink and I do a luke skywalker in Mos Esley cantine.

    - get kivan and think "wow lv2!" This guy kicks ass!" Go to recover perdue sword from the hobgoblins. Encounter a rabid dog. "Lucky me! Kivan charms it and we have a meat shield against the hobgoblins!". Kivan fails the charm. Rabid dog scores a crit and kills him on the spot. Bhaalspawn runs for his life.

    I have to say I have never played a charname that is such a wuss. Its fun!
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    MacHurto said:

    @JLee‌ well, survived to Lv2 (by ditching NPCs when giving quests) and killed tarnesh or whatever his name is so doing better :-D

    Best moments:
    - ditch group to talk to that guy in beregost inn whose kid has died. Then messing the answers and get him to attack me. Run around the inn talking to my npcs when he was a bit far to join again so we beat him up. Rolepæayed it as mates go for a drink and I do a luke skywalker in Mos Esley cantine.

    - get kivan and think "wow lv2!" This guy kicks ass!" Go to recover perdue sword from the hobgoblins. Encounter a rabid dog. "Lucky me! Kivan charms it and we have a meat shield against the hobgoblins!". Kivan fails the charm. Rabid dog scores a crit and kills him on the spot. Bhaalspawn runs for his life.

    I have to say I have never played a charname that is such a wuss. Its fun!

    Hilarious. Kivan's misfortune had me LOL. It's these kind things that make no-reload so special...
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    The early BGEE is the worst part if you try to play it "normally". The best ways to deal with it are :
    - skip it entirely by killing shoal and the basilisks. This will make you level 5-6
    - use sleep a lot. The wand of sleep makes it possible for every character. Using it, you can most maps SW of beregost and around gnoll fortress with no risk. This yields 10-12kxp. Enough to avoid screaming at each rabid dog.
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    As for sorc spell selection, i find that there is in fact very few needed spells.
    I mostly rely on 2 combos :
    - web+MMM+spiderspawn for early game (= until level 18)
    - time stop + improve alacrity + skull trap / ADHW for the rest

    Add in a few defensive spells (stoneskin, spell immunity, PFMW), utilities (lower resist, invisibility, project image, shapechange) and summons (mordy swords, animate dead). The rest is pretty much optionnal
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    @mumumomo: no breach? One of my stock spells. I debuff all the time with my mages...
  • CTKnightOwlCTKnightOwl Member Posts: 88
    I'm going to throw out this one even though I doubt it will be a popular choice.

    Elf (or half elf) Archer.

    Since they tweaked the mastery numbers, once you get 3 or 4 slots on your bow, you are unstoppable, The combination of Boots of Speed, Ankh Armor(not sure if that is a glitch soon to be addressed), Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise, and all the primo cloaks and rings make him/her an ideal choice. I would recommend soloing or just using Imoen until you get to level 3 or 4. Then use the following party for an unstoppable machine of destruction:

    Imoen (spend pts on Stealth and Find Traps)
    Kivan
    Coran (comes in with open locks at almost 100%)
    Dynahair (and/or dual class Imoen)
    Yeslick (with gauntlets of Dex, or use Branwen if you want dex bonus for Dynaheir)

    With 3 solid archers (Coran comes in with 3 slots of Bow even though he is multiclassed) you can use the cleric to tank as well as summoned monsters.

    One more thing, don't restrict yourself to longbows only, even though the strongarm+3 and Heartseeker in BG2 are the best bow damages to be found, the Tuigan short bow and Xbow of speed are excellent options as well
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    @Blackraven. Breach is good in group or with a FM. But with a sorceror i find it useless :
    Mages are dangerous foes so i don't let my summons kill them; I do the job myself with time stop, improve alacrity and AOE.
    Anyway, the great thing with arcane magic is that there is not one best way to do it. A lot of tactics can work. Just do what is good for your playstyle.

    @CTKnightOwl : archer is good (very good even) BUT :
    - without a group, it is ill suited for a no reload because they have no way to protect against some
    insta-death spells like maze.
    - with a group, ... well it's with a group. So 10 times harder than solo

    So yes in BGEE they rock (but BGEE is easy anyway with any class) but in BG2, they are just too weak against magic to do a no reload without a perfect knowledge of the game (and probably eating lot of cheese)

    Also long bows are very far from being the best bows in BG2. Actually they really suck in BG2:
    - firetooth does much more damage with GWW.
    - Tuigan does much more without GWW.
    - Longbows have no way to hit +2 immune mobs.
    -> avoid wasting your proficiencies on long bows.
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    @mumumomo why is it so much harder with a group? The XP loss? So far, I am surviving thanks to the little group that goes with me
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @MacHurto: you're saying you're travelling with a little group of two or three companions, yes? Well think of how powerful you'd be if you doubled or tripled your XP... Especially on higher levels. My current Cleric/Thief has about 90k XP. Had I travelled with a party of 3, that would be 30k XP. That's a huge difference.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    Yeah micromanaging more than two or three already is a pain IMO. And auto-attack is unreliable....
    Not sure if I'd be able pull off what you mention in second point re: BG1, but stealth sure is amazing in BG1 (and with non-detection in a substantial portion of BG2).
  • CTKnightOwlCTKnightOwl Member Posts: 88
    The thing that stinks about solo runs is that if you get so much as charmed, it is instant game over. Having other members in your party can allow you to wait out the charm or dispel it. Also, NPCs can soak up instakills and be revived. You don't need to have 6 characters in your party. 4 is a good number and like I said, solo until you are level 3 or 4 and then all NPCs will join you at a higher level. This negates the need to explore everything for maximum XP gain.

    You want to jump a few levels? Go to Basilisk area and use a scroll of protection from petrification. Just stay away from the crazy mage and Linden & co unless you are prepared and higher level.

    munomomo makes a few good points but I have to disagree. The bow is hands down the most efficient weapon in the game. Even with no proficiency, you get 2 attacks. When an archer gets to level 7 he is attacking 3 times a round for like 12-18 damage with a THACO so low it is laughable.

    How many "mobs" do you encounter in BG with +2 or less immunity? Let's not forget that an archer can use other weapons. The BG2 combo of prot from undead and Azuredge pretty much takes care of any undead with immunity. The amulet of Power protects the Archer from level drain (or upgraded Mace of Disruption)

    Also keep in mind that if you power game, you will likely get to BG2 with a 19 str. This is a big help when enemies get in close. As an archer with a single prof slot for melee weapons, you still have options:

    Staff and 2hw style (BG2 +1 staff of curing gives +2 to AC, BG1 has +2 staff/spear, and +3 staff) preventing you from having to go to inventory every time you switch to melee.
    Dual wield short sword and scimitar (+2 belm and +2 kundane each give +1 attack which has you attacking almost 5 times a round )

    Unfortunately, I wouldn't risk fighting a Shadow Dragon (for the best studded leather armor in the game) on a no reload game but bracers of AC3 and a +2 protection ring or cloak does the job (although I would rather have gauntlets of weapon expertise for the extra 2 dmg per hit)
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    Charm/paralysis = game over. But protecting agaisnt them is extremely easy :
    - in bgee : the ring of free action is available from the start,as is the greenstone amulet
    - in bg2, sword of arabane, lilarcor, shield of harmony are available from the start of the game.
    Overall it's a non issue for a solo character.


    I am not saying that longbow is a useless weapon. It is indeed the best type for bgee. The only thing is that shortbows are a almost as good in bgee (which is extremely easy anyway) and much better in bg2.
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    edited March 2014
    @mumumomo where are the ring of free action and the greenstobe amulet?
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