My no-reload SCS charname has just awoken in Chateau Irenicus, I think I'll have him literally "use" (he's a devious little bugger) some of the unpopular NPCs like Cernd.
It's true that as the game develops physical resistance becomes more important. AC should nevertheless always be as low as possible, which is why I don't tend to have both Keldorn and Anomen in one party. Ideally you have a heavily armoured Anomen with the Gaunts of Dex + Armour of Faith + DoE to make him last in battle.
Yes, I go the other extreme. In all my previous BG2 parties (EDIT: full playthroughs, not playtesting sessions), I have never run anyone who cannot cast either Stoneskin or Ironskin. Hence multiple F/Ms, T/Ms, R/Cs, C/Ms and bards. I cannot even stomach the sight of one character who cannot cast either spell.
Really? Even NPCs? That would seriously limit your options... (I agree that arcane casters, followed by druids and cleric/rangers have the best protections agains physical damage.)
@Blackraven Yes, before I "opened up", I used to run:
1. PC F/M 2. Jaheira F/D or Custom R/C (sometimes I replace Valygar's .cre file with a custom R/C, sans weapon) 3. Imoen T/M 4. Aerie C/M 5. Jan M/T or Haer'dalis (blade) 6. Sarevok to dual to mage, or Solaufein (grew tired of him though... his script sometimes crashed my game beyond recovery in Ch.5), or another custom F/M
So yes, it is very possible to run a "pure skin party" without using mods or even having to make multiplayer characters, but the options are very limited...
That's a good party, though not great against undead. But opening up is good too I think about challenges all the time, leaving the comfort zone. I'm very partial to roguish characters, and would have a hard time playing non-thieves (single or multi). I did make it till the end with a Fighter/Illusionist once though. But my last playthrough with a Wizard Slayer I felt really awkward with the heavy armor and no stealth of invisibility spells.
That's a good party, though not great against undead. But opening up is good too I think about challenges all the time, leaving the comfort zone. I'm very partial to roguish characters, and would have a hard time playing non-thieves (single or multi). I did make it till the end with a Fighter/Illusionist once though. But my last playthrough with a Wizard Slayer I felt really awkward with the heavy armor and no stealth of invisibility spells.
Yup it wasn't fantastic, but Aerie could turn weak undead under cover of Staff of the Magi, then once the weaker ones were out of the way, the main force swarmed in for a divide-and-conquer.
I'm very partial to fighter/spellcasters who are able to protect themselves, because I'm not fond of micromanagement. Hence the shift towards DPS party. Adding Haer'Dalis and getting him to do nothing but sing in protected locations invisible also helps reduce micromanagement.
P.S. Now it's back to drawing board, with Jaheira, Aerie and Cernd as contenders. I dislike the spell changes though. It's reasonable to let Cernd have a better werewolf form but not the change of spell access
I used to hate/not know how to use divine casters, so I always took Aerie to use as a healing dispenser of magic missiles, Anomen to hit things with a mace or Jaheira to dual wield something and Belm.
I want to finally try out this Viconia romance, and have kind of learned a lot on how to use clerics from the "Ranking Divine Spells" thread. So I may change my opinion.
Overall, I like Jaheira and Anomen for roleplaying reasons, and I like Aerie for mechanical reasons. So really, I think they are all equal.
I used to hate/not know how to use divine casters, so I always took Aerie to use as a healing dispenser of magic missiles, Anomen to hit things with a mace or Jaheira to dual wield something and Belm.
I want to finally try out this Viconia romance, and have kind of learned a lot on how to use clerics from the "Ranking Divine Spells" thread. So I may change my opinion.
Overall, I like Jaheira and Anomen for roleplaying reasons, and I like Aerie for mechanical reasons. So really, I think they are all equal.
Except Cernd. Cernd sucks.
When I first started out years ago, I thought spell damage was everything. There were few heavy-damage spells I didn't like, I condemned Xan (the BG enchanter) out of hand, and so on.
As I switched from vanilla to modded games, I increasingly felt that magic damage was insufficient. Monsters were given more HP, resistances, and were tougher generally, but spell damage didn't scale up (still capped at L20), so I realized that magic damage was a losing proposition unless I used tricks like Limited Wish Bunny Horde+Wish ADHW on everyone for 20x ADHWs. And like I said earlier, I hate having to micromanage now that monsters are tougher, so some fighter class helps, and bards let me get away with micromanaging one less character (hide him away, sing, ignore him forever).
Since then, I switched to DPS parties. I still run magic-heavy parties, but I'm more willing to sacrifice classes like T/M or C/M for F/M or R/C. Bards are important for Enhanced Bard Song. Spell selection is now heavily focused on debuffing. I still carry damage spells, but only as an opening sequence (mages go invisible, creep up to enemies, release sequenced 3x fireball/sunfire/ADHW, kill a few enemies, flee, rinse and repeat, or just lure them to a group of summons).
So there. That's why I'm less into damage or buffing, but debuffing. As long as the divine caster can muster some of the basic buffs (e.g. Bless), and the critical buffs (e.g. Dispel Magic, Chaotic Commands), it's good enough for me as far as buffing is concerned. For debuffing, let's say there is a group of 6 monsters. If I cast a few direct damage spells, their resistances may be so strong that none of them are killed after my initial onslaught, so I'll have to face the wrath of 6 monsters. But if a few debuffing/crowd control spells will take out at least 1-2 of them, that means I only need to face the wrath of 4-5 monsters. Good deal if you ask me.
On that count, I prefer Jaheira or Aerie (I'd like Cernd too, but I don't like the way the Shapeshifter rebalancing is done). Viconia, on hindsight, is excellent as a niche decoy character, but I'll have to consider if the loss of debuffs can be compensated for, whether I can replace her role with another decoy, and evil parties don't appeal to me (I push for 20 Rep very early and for RP purposes I won't attack Adalon).
@booinyoureyes And yes, I thought the ranking of divine spells is good. I read it the other day. I don't necessarily agree with the rankings, but the top spells are basically there.
Just to give my 2 cents : I think divine casting is meh : apart from chaotic command, insect swarn and nature's beauty, everything else is either of small significance or can be duplicated easily (by items or arcane magic) Therefore divine casting capability should not be the major factor for choosing the divine caster you want.
If we look at the NPC : jaheira and anomen are similar : both are good at fighting and a romance options. I believe anomen is better at the beginning of the game but jaheira is MUCH stronger at the end, having access to fighter HLA and much better high level spell selection (druid spells are much stronger at level 5-6-7) Overall i would favor Jaheira.
Viconia has 1 marvelous thing : her MR. I completely agree with Sion IV : you cannot compare her innate 65% MR to 40% from a spell. Bringing her to 100% MR is very easy AND very useful, especially against lone casters.
Aerie : arcane magic is the best thing in the game. however i don't really like the C/M combo. Yes you can cast plenty of spells but anyway you cannot cast more than once per round before getting improved alacrity (and she will not have much level 9 spell slots anyway). Apart from a few nice combos, you will end up anyway using mage spells and she is a rather poor arcane caster compared to the other options (jan being a specialist, imoen and edwin being pure mages)
Cernd : He brings nothing on top of divine casting.
Overall, if i need a extra fighter i would chose jaheira (or anomen). If i don't i would chose Viconia for her MR.
@mumumomo Agreed to all points. That's pretty much the consensus we had... Viconia the 100% MR decoy, Jaheira the super fighter, and the rest are good but faltering in some way. Ironically, it's not their divine casting that makes them shine
You are basically saying that aerie is good because she is an arcane caster. While this is true, it means that you will actually spend your time with her casting arcane spells. For that matter, just pick a real mage, it will be better
No, then he lose the Buffing and Healing. But 4. Buffing (10%) 5. Healing (10%)
20% ?? is not quite big need for a divine caster. -> Minor Sequencer + 2* Cure Light Wounds is a fast 16 HP heal at last. -> Minor Sequencer + Silence, 15' Radius + Hold Person (or one with Doom ) is one of my beloved CC.
You lose not that much of her divine power, most spells arcane or divine lose only duration or nothing.
In 1. Summoning (30%), 2. Debuffing (30%) 60% looks way better than the other in this part.
Comments
(I agree that arcane casters, followed by druids and cleric/rangers have the best protections agains physical damage.)
Fun characters you tend to play btw.
1. PC F/M
2. Jaheira F/D or Custom R/C (sometimes I replace Valygar's .cre file with a custom R/C, sans weapon)
3. Imoen T/M
4. Aerie C/M
5. Jan M/T or Haer'dalis (blade)
6. Sarevok to dual to mage, or Solaufein (grew tired of him though... his script sometimes crashed my game beyond recovery in Ch.5), or another custom F/M
So yes, it is very possible to run a "pure skin party" without using mods or even having to make multiplayer characters, but the options are very limited...
I think about challenges all the time, leaving the comfort zone. I'm very partial to roguish characters, and would have a hard time playing non-thieves (single or multi). I did make it till the end with a Fighter/Illusionist once though. But my last playthrough with a Wizard Slayer I felt really awkward with the heavy armor and no stealth of invisibility spells.
I'm very partial to fighter/spellcasters who are able to protect themselves, because I'm not fond of micromanagement. Hence the shift towards DPS party. Adding Haer'Dalis and getting him to do nothing but sing in protected locations invisible also helps reduce micromanagement.
P.S. Now it's back to drawing board, with Jaheira, Aerie and Cernd as contenders. I dislike the spell changes though. It's reasonable to let Cernd have a better werewolf form but not the change of spell access
I want to finally try out this Viconia romance, and have kind of learned a lot on how to use clerics from the "Ranking Divine Spells" thread. So I may change my opinion.
Overall, I like Jaheira and Anomen for roleplaying reasons, and I like Aerie for mechanical reasons. So really, I think they are all equal.
Except Cernd. Cernd sucks.
As I switched from vanilla to modded games, I increasingly felt that magic damage was insufficient. Monsters were given more HP, resistances, and were tougher generally, but spell damage didn't scale up (still capped at L20), so I realized that magic damage was a losing proposition unless I used tricks like Limited Wish Bunny Horde+Wish ADHW on everyone for 20x ADHWs. And like I said earlier, I hate having to micromanage now that monsters are tougher, so some fighter class helps, and bards let me get away with micromanaging one less character (hide him away, sing, ignore him forever).
Since then, I switched to DPS parties. I still run magic-heavy parties, but I'm more willing to sacrifice classes like T/M or C/M for F/M or R/C. Bards are important for Enhanced Bard Song. Spell selection is now heavily focused on debuffing. I still carry damage spells, but only as an opening sequence (mages go invisible, creep up to enemies, release sequenced 3x fireball/sunfire/ADHW, kill a few enemies, flee, rinse and repeat, or just lure them to a group of summons).
So there. That's why I'm less into damage or buffing, but debuffing. As long as the divine caster can muster some of the basic buffs (e.g. Bless), and the critical buffs (e.g. Dispel Magic, Chaotic Commands), it's good enough for me as far as buffing is concerned. For debuffing, let's say there is a group of 6 monsters. If I cast a few direct damage spells, their resistances may be so strong that none of them are killed after my initial onslaught, so I'll have to face the wrath of 6 monsters. But if a few debuffing/crowd control spells will take out at least 1-2 of them, that means I only need to face the wrath of 4-5 monsters. Good deal if you ask me.
On that count, I prefer Jaheira or Aerie (I'd like Cernd too, but I don't like the way the Shapeshifter rebalancing is done). Viconia, on hindsight, is excellent as a niche decoy character, but I'll have to consider if the loss of debuffs can be compensated for, whether I can replace her role with another decoy, and evil parties don't appeal to me (I push for 20 Rep very early and for RP purposes I won't attack Adalon).
Just to give my 2 cents :
I think divine casting is meh : apart from chaotic command, insect swarn and nature's beauty, everything else is either of small significance or can be duplicated easily (by items or arcane magic)
Therefore divine casting capability should not be the major factor for choosing the divine caster you want.
If we look at the NPC :
jaheira and anomen are similar : both are good at fighting and a romance options.
I believe anomen is better at the beginning of the game but jaheira is MUCH stronger at the end, having access to fighter HLA and much better high level spell selection (druid spells are much stronger at level 5-6-7)
Overall i would favor Jaheira.
Viconia has 1 marvelous thing : her MR.
I completely agree with Sion IV : you cannot compare her innate 65% MR to 40% from a spell.
Bringing her to 100% MR is very easy AND very useful, especially against lone casters.
Aerie : arcane magic is the best thing in the game. however i don't really like the C/M combo. Yes you can cast plenty of spells but anyway you cannot cast more than once per round before getting improved alacrity (and she will not have much level 9 spell slots anyway).
Apart from a few nice combos, you will end up anyway using mage spells and she is a rather poor arcane caster compared to the other options (jan being a specialist, imoen and edwin being pure mages)
Cernd : He brings nothing on top of divine casting.
Overall, if i need a extra fighter i would chose jaheira (or anomen). If i don't i would chose Viconia for her MR.
Aerie
Bonus Arcan Summoning
Bonus Arcan Debuffing
Male/Range -> Sling + Arcan Magic Missile, Fireball, CC,...
Buffing Cleric + Arcan (Stone Skin, Hast,...)
Healing Cleric
+ Bonus with
Chain Contingency, Contingency, Limited Wish, Minor Sequencer, Project Image,
Simulacrum, Spell Sequencer, Spell Trigger, Wondrous Recall, Wish
- Low Level a long time
- Low turn Undeath
- no Viconia's MR
- no real front liner
But
4. Buffing (10%)
5. Healing (10%)
20% ?? is not quite big need for a divine caster.
-> Minor Sequencer + 2* Cure Light Wounds is a fast 16 HP heal at last.
-> Minor Sequencer + Silence, 15' Radius + Hold Person (or one with Doom ) is one of my beloved CC.
You lose not that much of her divine power, most spells arcane or divine lose only duration or nothing.
In 1. Summoning (30%), 2. Debuffing (30%)
60% looks way better than the other in this part.