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The Best Class Of Weapons

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  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    @jacobtan: Your formula is good and I look forward to your detail analysis.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    Hahahaha I was thinking the same as @Elrandir. I think his question cannot be quantified because of various qualitative aspects such as equipped effects like free action, stun upon hit, mind shield etc and because of factors such as the amount of available enchanted weapons per class (how do you value that), and also their accessibility (when do you acquire them, how difficult is it to acquire them etc.).
    Neverheless the math at least teaches me new things :)
    ElrandirAurorus
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited April 2014
    @bbear‌

    I believe we are merely describing the different sides of the same coin and I will briefly summarize and also to relate our computations to the opening thread :)

    Quoting myself, let us look at the basic structure of damage computation:

    (X+Y)(n)

    X refers weapon damage
    Y refers to damage bonuses
    n refers to APR

    n has a multiplier effect hence increasing APR is essential for maximizing damage.

    Comparing X with Y, the nature of the AD&D game is such that X is often lower than Y. Considering normal weaponry, the largest damage dice is 1d10 (katanas, halberds and two-handed swords), and the smallest dice is 1d2 (dart). The difference in expected damage is a mere 5.5-1.5=4. Considering magical weaponry, Flail of Ages +5 offers one of the highest expected weapon damages at 1d6+6+10 elemental=19.5. But we need to know that most weapons do not offer anywhere near this figure. Spectral Brand +5 is only 1d8+5+1d6 cold=13. Even Carsomyr +6 is only 1d12+6=12.5 (not counting special damage). Also, notice that the difference in weapon base damage is actually quite small among the top-level weapons (<=10).

    On the other hand, Y can go up quite a bit higher. A character with 22 Str, grandmastery and gauntlets already has 10+5+2=17. You get more if your Str is higher, if you have some other damage bonus (kensai, offensive spin, rage), and these bonuses are not tied to the weapon.

    Therefore, considering the above, we have a reasonably good case for the following pecking order (in descending order of importance) when it comes to increasing weapon damage output, assuming generally favorable circumstances:

    1. APR
    2. Damage bonuses
    3. Weapon

    Relating our analysis to the question @Elrandir‌ posted, since base weapon weapon damage is the weakest contributor to damage output, and the differences in damage among the top-level weapons are slight, the proposition I make here is that the "best class of weapons" will be the one that offers the following instead of damage since a player can focus on APR and damage bonuses to increase damage:

    1. Power - Are there any good specimens of this weapon?
    2. Accessibility - Are good specimens of this weapon available easily?
    3. Flexibility - Does this weapon class allow you to vary your combat strategy?
    4. Special Effects - Are there any special effects, and are they game-changing?

    Based on the above, we have some overall strong contenders like Axe and Two-Handed Sword, and some others are meh (Clubs and Daggers IMO, and bastard swords are terrible). But this is up to the individual player to decide. For me, I value special effects more than damage generally, so I am a fan of Ravager/Silver Sword/Axe of the Unyielding, Flail of Ages, Carsomyr/Staff of the Magi, Answerer, and so on. :)
    Post edited by jacobtan on
    BlackravenElrandirCrevsDaakbbear
  • FinaLfrontFinaLfront Member Posts: 260
    I can't believe no one has mentioned yet how much cooler crushing weapons sound against plate over piercing/slashing
    elminsterBlackravenElrandirjackjack
  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    The best class is bastard swords - becuase they are bad ass >:D
    jacobtanBlackravenElrandirWolk
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,664
    @Aristillius‌ I will totally second that, even knowing their shortcomings.

    One of the favorite ideas for a warrior I had was a bastard sword and single weapon style character. I always imagine the added defensive and offensive bonuses to be derived from the character holding it with both hands, and the bastard sword is literally DESIGNED for that kind of one or two handed style of combat, so it's perfect.
    AristilliusBlackraven
  • ifupaulineifupauline Member Posts: 405
    Katana are good but the only worth having is celestial fury, and you can't get it right away, so you are crippled for a while with a +1 Katana assuming you don't want to spend 20k gold for dakkonzerthblade. On the other side longsword are probably the most prominent weapon in bg2.

    Quaterstaff, no need to say it, you can get a +4 very early in the game. ninjato scimetar are good you can easily get a +2 for free in trademeet, and when you're good enough get a +4 usono blade again for free. That you will most likely keep until the end of the game.

    Then you have so many good 2 handed swords. Even though I never use them.

    long sword
    quaterstaff
    scimetar/ninjato/waki
    2 handed sword

    I think long sword and quaterstaff get the upper hand, lot of them, easy to get and plenty of free buff.
    ElrandirBlackraven
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    edited April 2014
    When I'm asked what weapon category is the best in my opinion, I use one particular criteria: If I had to hand over weapons from only one category, how many people in the party could I equip with one weapon type while being relatively satisfied with the outcome?

    That speaks for the weapon count/quality ratio in the game. I am also a reasonable man so I assume that I can shape my party accordingly so I can bypass particular class/character requirements. Now, let's see:

    Long Swords: Argunvadal, Answerer, Blackrazor, Daystar
    Two-Handed Swords: Carsomyr, Gram, Soul Reaver, Unholy Reaver, Psion's Blade, Silver Sword, Warblade (I know, generic, but it's still a +4 sword)
    Warhammers: Crom Faeyr, Runehammer. Possibly this category is slightly better in SoA only, but that's it.
    Battle Axes: Frostreaver, Stonefire, Axe of the Unyielding, K'logarath, Azuredge.
    Katanas: Celestial Fury and...yeah, that's about it. Hindo's if you REALLY have to.
    Short Swords: Cutthroat+4, Sword of Mask, Kundane*
    Scimitars/Wakizashi/Ninja-To: Spectral Brand, Usuno's Blade, Yamoto+4, Scarlet Ninja-To, Belm**
    Halberds: Ravager, Dragon's Breath, Wave
    Spears: Ixil's Spike, Impaler, Withering
    Slings: Sling of Arvoreen, Erinne, Everard, optionally Seeking for the Str bonus, but it's only +2...
    Quarterstaffs: Staff of Rynn, Staff of the Magi, Staff of the Ram (although why it's knockback effect is a positive is beyond me). Staff of the Woodlands and Staff of Power if you really have to stretch it.
    Crossbows: Firetooth?
    Bastard Swords: Foebane, Purifier
    Clubs: Ugh, really? Detonation maybe, but I don't like this category very much.
    Maces: Storm Star, Mace of Disrutption (very optional)

    * (ugh...really don't like it, but people here seem to value this +1 attack much)
    ** (See above)

    Someone can correct me if I didn't include some other awesome weapon, but from where I stand, the best categories are:

    1. Two Handed Swords (can equip 7 people with relatively good stuff)
    2. Battle Axes (5 people)
    3. ex aequo Long Swords and, funny, Scimitars (4 people).

    I don't consider Belm and Kundane as standalone good choices. Only as off-hand weapons.
    ElrandirBlackraven
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    @Lathlaer‌

    You missed flails/morningstars :)
    WolkCrevsDaakBlackraven
  • Demonoid_LimewireDemonoid_Limewire Member Posts: 424
    Elrandir said:

    @Demonoid_Limewire‌ Um... I feel you might have misinterpreted the idea. Being very rare isn't exactly a good thing. You want to have a consistent supply of good ones, not just a few good ones. And +4, while it is good enough and an extra +2 on top of that isn't necessary, isn't exactly what I'd call good. But if you think they're the best, then go for it!

    Please, man... Quality wins over quantity every time! Especially since everyone mostly wants to equip his/her main with the best thing affordable. What would be the purpose in having a consistent supply of good ones, since you are going to need one, or two at best?

    Another katana advantage that also sets it above all other weapons, primarily in the EE, is that in the first game, it is not affected by the iron crisis; which means it simply cannot break! Even if it is the normal one without enchantment, it is ice cold. Killer stuff. Ninja item. Plus, it can backstab. And since it deals damage on par with a 2H sword, this means it is the meanest backstabber (from the 1H category).

    I do not think anything, the katana thinks for me instead!
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,579
    Elrandir said:

    For my money, and this is coming from someone who hasn't done much in BG2, I would say long swords. Like in most RPGs, they are a common, iconic, symbolic weapon that most people would recognize. Almost every RPG has them well represented, and from what I've seen, Baldur's Gate is no different. But I don't hear much about them in the endgame of BG2, which is why I'm unsure. But I still believe they're the dominant weapon type of the game.

    I basically agree with everything you've said here.

    I wouldn't worry too much about the end-game of BG2 - it's just the final portion of an extensive 2-game series, and besides, you can import any of the numerous magical long swords available in SoA into ToB.

    Long swords really come into their own in SoA, where they are the most numerous and readily available of all magical weapons - and ironically, there are very, very few NPCs that you will find who are proficient in them.
    Elrandirjackjack
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Personally, I always liked daggers. But they're a pretty useless category, aren't they? My poor daggers. Item Upgrade at least makes a nice thief one for you.

    I'd probably vote for 'staff', in the end. Huge backstab with Staff of the Ram for thieves, and Staff of the Magi is great for your casters. And you can get decent staffs in BG1, as well. They're something of a plain choice, in a world of swords, but they make it work.
    Elrandirjackjack
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    edited April 2014
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