It's called a katana, but the only resemblance to its real counterpart is the name and shape. This sword was not made to hack steel, maces were the bane of armor.
That's why katana are strong enough to stab with as well as sharp enough to slash with...
Yeah well technically, real katanas could not stab without hurting the metal, they were designed to slash (real sharp-> real thin). But oh well
If i remember correctly from the rules, katanas cannot be made as normal weapons. Only magical or masterwork (the last in 3E), and in that sense, you could not complete the forging of a katana with brittle iron.
Because every weapon in the sword coast is made in the sword coast and was made recently, right?
Well, other than that, let's not take into account that if you tried to slash a full plate armor with a katana... you know what would break, it wouldn't be the armor! :P
While you're at it, you might want to forget many other weapons that are also effective against enemies wearing full-plate.
If i remember correctly from the rules, katanas cannot be made as normal weapons. Only magical or masterwork (the last in 3E), and in that sense, you could not complete the forging of a katana with brittle iron.
Because every weapon in the sword coast is made in the sword coast and was made recently, right?
Well, other than that, let's not take into account that if you tried to slash a full plate armor with a katana... you know what would break, it wouldn't be the armor! :P
While you're at it, you might want to forget many other weapons that are also effective against enemies wearing full-plate.
I don't get your point. I basically said that even if made in the sword coast, because of how they were made, they would not break. Obviously most of them would be imported some time ago.
As for the second part, it was to point out that it doesn't have anything to do with a real katana, people saying it was not accurate and all that, well it doesn't matter if it is or isn't, it's a fantasy setting. It was influenced by something, but it's not the same.
Assuming they were made with the tainted iron in the Baldur's Gate region that is. If they were made in Kara-Tur (which I think they should be, because you wouldn't expect to find someone with the knowledge to make one in the area) they should be immune to breaking, since they are not made with brittle iron.
I think the game mentions how the iron problem seems to be contagious, so even imported weapons should have problems.
I would like katanas to be 2h weapons. Then at least their damage would not be overpowered. They could still have better a better speed factor. It even would be more 'realistic' since Nito Style is quite uncommon.
Maybe a kensai should be able to use it 1h. Admittedly that's a lot to ask for. ^^
My beef with katanas is the long ones that do 1d10 should be 2 handed. The wakashiki/ninjato class is the single handed type. Also they should be super rare. You may be able to buy them in BG, but not Beregost and certainly not Nashkell. Plus no one would know how to make them. They aren't just curvy swords. Amn is more worldly to be sure, but even soI am not entirely satisfied that Yoshimo isn't viewed as a rarity by the locals. Remember the guy in BG who mentions Maztica as a place where people cling to the bottom of the world like bats? FR in general tends to be too nerfed. It doesn't feel like a place where no one knows how to read, where people live in terror that tomorrow they will be eaten by ogres and never travel out of sight of home. It feels like a big ren fest much of the time.
As Mark Twain once said: "The difference between fiction and non-fiction is that fiction has to be believable." BG bears the onerous burden of making sense. Katanas don't suit it. But then, neither do kensai or monks. Who would train them? Candle keep has visitors yes, but last time you had an architect over did you learn to design buildings? At the cost of entrance to Candle Keep you can bet few people ever came twice. It only really makes sense to have the basic classes from the original BG minus druids and rangers. When you take into account that the developers decided to keep these classes despite credibility you have to let there be silly weapons, because in the end it is about game play being fun. BG does a pretty good job of balancing game play and story so that we all fell in love. We probably should all leave it that way.
As Mark Twain once said: "The difference between fiction and non-fiction is that fiction has to be believable." BG bears the onerous burden of making sense. Katanas don't suit it.
And just what are you basing that assessment on? Because the world Baldur's Gate exists within has had katanas and the people who wield them since 1987.
It's not really like katanas are all over the place in Amn either. The proficiency even lists the "weakness" of katanas to be that they are rather rare in the area the game takes place in. As for the whole "medieval" thing, the Forgotten Realms is a VERY anachronistic world space. I mean, just look at some of the stuff the followers of Gond make for a pretty big example of that. The only thing limiting weapons like katanas in the region is that their crafting homeland is fairly far away and we don't see many people from there besides Tomoko (and obviously good ole Yoshi in BGII). That doesn't mean that they can't end up in the hands of some collectors, though. And if those collectors happen to be evil or attacked by bandits, those weapons could end up anywhere.
I think people are forgetting the whole "magic and fantasy" portion of this game.
Not really because a fantastic setting isn't without bounds, especially those estabilished by the setting itself. Fantasy must have a working and inviolable inner logic to be believable.
And it just so happens that, while these day the Forgotten Realms can be considered a 'generic' setting in many ways, it still isn't the 'standard fantasy setting' that focuses almost solely on 'european' and 'holywood european' cultures with elves, magic and dwarves thrown into the mix.
So the problem is that some are simply ignorant about the setting.
@Shawne: Waterdeep is the most metropolitan area in the world with millions of people moving in and out and even there katanas are rare. BG is like Boise. Waterdeep is NYC. Scimitars make sense. Calimshan isn't far away really when compared to kara-tur. The far east is months away and the swords are hard to make. Not a viable trade. I know FR. I have been reading it for a long time. One of its weaknesses is that every writer wants to make an exceptional character and exceptional circumstances. That means bringing in crap like unlikely weapons. They should just write good credible stuff that is great. Faerun is cool enough without adding a new exception (a good drow for instance) to every adventure. This is why George RR Martin is so revolutionary: He has added nothing new or extraordinary except his skill as a writer.
As for the "It's fantasy crowd." you obviously don't get the Twain quote. There is a reason that Minsc doesn't pull a pink bunny death ray out and blast Fiirkraag with it when the party is getting whacked: It is that it would be unbelievable and therefore stupid. (The big metal unit is a joke, not an attempt at a serious weapon so it can't be compared to katanas. Also it is not in BG1.) Disbelief can only be suspended so far. BG is a podunk place. Amn sees them as hicks. They are a stop on a trade route that is only used when the sea is too dangerous. It isn't even a nation, just a city state in an untamed region of the world. Katanas are not believable there. Period. There might be one in the city. Maybe two. Not enough to support a proficiency. It would be like getting good at iceskating in equador.
@taletotell I've always interpreted that quote as a jab at people whose suspension of disbelief is too easily ruined by things like the presence of katana in worlds that have katana in them.
I know FR. I have been reading it for a long time. One of its weaknesses is that every writer wants to make an exceptional character and exceptional circumstances.
I confess I'm no reader of FR lore, but as a outsider I must say that canon often seems like a mess and wonder if it isn't hard to discuss the 'actual' Forgotten Realms.
' Katanas originate from the island kingdom of Wa in the far-eastern realm of Kara-Tur. Their design has trickled slowly west into Faerûn so that now, certain Faerûnian master-craftsmen have been able to forge their own blades, though they are by no means any less exotic. The katana is known as the finest sword ever made to the peoples of the Western Heartlands. '
With a specific mention of the region where Baldur's Gate itself is located, I'm lead to believe that while rare, katanas are not out of place. Maybe Katanas should be as rare as a magical weapon should be (though magical items themselves seem more common than they should be).
It's not clear enough to me without some kind of basic historical context. If you say FR is a fantasy world, yes, so...
You can't justify that the Sword Coast region of the GAME (not the canon D&D lore) isn't medieval Europe, just because there are cultural elements. The Middle Ages WAS A TIME of cultural diversity, but it was still Europe.
Where does it go from there? I can't just say to myself when I play "I'm in a fantasy world encompassing periods of time and place which coexist in a single form."
It's easier for me to say "So you've got Medieval Britain, that's the Sword Coast. You've got Amn, which is the Middle Eastern part of Asian. Then Kara-Tur is the oriental part of Asia."
Now isn't that 100000x easier than saying "Well you've got castles and caucasian guys with katanas and Asian guys with pianos and blah blah blah."
But to get a grip exactly on WHERE WE ARE, I need to be specific, if you people are happy to posssess no grip on reality when you play games, then I do not understand.
But to get a grip exactly on WHERE WE ARE, I need to be specific, if you people are happy to posssess no grip on reality when you play games, then I do not understand.
As far as I'm concerned, the reality I'm exploring does not need to justify itself with oversimplified real world equivalents. Whatever I see in game is that reality, and it is formed in my mind as I explore and understand the milieu of storytelling.
If the game is any good, neither mechanics nor story will contradict themselves or each other within the narrative itself. For those of us initiated in FR lore, 'narrative' stands for 'the entire canon of the Realms', for those who aren't, that means the games themselves exclusively.
It's not clear enough to me without some kind of basic historical context. If you say FR is a fantasy world, yes, so...
You can't justify that the Sword Coast region of the GAME (not the canon D&D lore) isn't medieval Europe, just because there are cultural elements. The Middle Ages WAS A TIME of cultural diversity, but it was still Europe.
Where does it go from there? I can't just say to myself when I play "I'm in a fantasy world encompassing periods of time and place which coexist in a single form."
It's easier for me to say "So you've got Medieval Britain, that's the Sword Coast. You've got Amn, which is the Middle Eastern part of Asian. Then Kara-Tur is the oriental part of Asia."
Now isn't that 100000x easier than saying "Well you've got castles and caucasian guys with katanas and Asian guys with pianos and blah blah blah."
But to get a grip exactly on WHERE WE ARE, I need to be specific, if you people are happy to posssess no grip on reality when you play games, then I do not understand.
I can see the value in this by being able to describe Baldur's Gate to another person, but why do you need to be able to say "well, this is like Great Britain" while playing in the game? And, even if you establish that some place in a fantasy world is vaguely similar to a real world place, that still isn't the basis for an argument on what is and isn't plausible in the fantasy world in question. The Sword Coast is in some ways LIKE 12th Century Great Britain, which didn't have katana, but it isn't and will never be Great Britain.
@Schneidend The Sword Coast is in MOST ways like 12th century Great Britain. Atleast as far as the game is concerned, ignore real Faerun lore, focus on the PC BG game. I have studied the artist's ideas in their architecutre and landscapes. Although to be honest the coloured trees look rather Asian. It is based on Medieval Britain, no argument needed.
The reason armour such as plate is available when it historically is not in the 12thc, is because they have to give you armours of superior protection. No point in having a maille shirt with 6 AC and one with -3 AC.
Katanas should be sold in Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate only, because production of katanas in small village shops is not only inaccurate in historical context, but inaccurate in that katanas come from Kara-Tur and the Sword Coast is a hell of a long way away from it.
But in order to support players who choose it as their proficiency, katanas have to be sold everywhere. That's reasonable, but it is not accurate. Not even in a fantasy game.
@Ward going to have to disagree. Considering the Friendly Arm Inn and the Thunderhammer Smithy are relatively famous places, it's reasonable for them to sell katana. Hell, Taerom is supposedly one of the best smiths in the whole region, so he may even know how to forge katana himself. I wouldn't even put it past Winthrop to have a katana. Perhaps he just happens to have one that was sold to him by a traveler, perhaps even Sarevok. Firebead and Gorion were adventurers, if I recall, maybe one of them had a katana and sold it to Winthrop back in the day.
The great thing about fantasy games is that you can explain pretty much anything.
@Schneidend Explaining any consistencies in a game with 'it's fantasy' isn't reasonable, it's lazy. That's like explaining why Spongebob has a spine in a certain episode (this is a fact) yet he's a sponge, an invertebrate, with fantasy.
' Katanas originate from the island kingdom of Wa in the far-eastern realm of Kara-Tur. Their design has trickled slowly west into Faerûn so that now, certain Faerûnian master-craftsmen have been able to forge their own blades, though they are by no means any less exotic. The katana is known as the finest sword ever made to the peoples of the Western Heartlands. '
- Forgotten Realms wiki
Given that Taerom is supposed to be a master craftsman, I don't see why not.
It's easier for me to say "So you've got Medieval Britain, that's the Sword Coast. You've got Amn, which is the Middle Eastern part of Asian. Then Kara-Tur is the oriental part of Asia."/blockquote>
Amn is Spain/Portugal. Calimport is the middle east
@Jolanthus Spain? I would never of guessed that man. I guess the fact that there's no sand around Amn gives away it's not the Middle East. I think the Normans settled there in Spain and that Portugal did trade with the British.
Comments
As for the second part, it was to point out that it doesn't have anything to do with a real katana, people saying it was not accurate and all that, well it doesn't matter if it is or isn't, it's a fantasy setting. It was influenced by something, but it's not the same.
I think you're jumping on the wrong person.
'Katanas are supposed to be a masterwork that cannot be made with brittle iron, so it doesn't make sense in the setting.
And katanas shouldn't even be able to damage someone on full plate, so they are not even accurately implemented and should be removed'.
My mind filled a lot of blanks and made some pretty wild jumps, sorry for that.
It even would be more 'realistic' since Nito Style is quite uncommon.
Maybe a kensai should be able to use it 1h.
Admittedly that's a lot to ask for. ^^
FR in general tends to be too nerfed. It doesn't feel like a place where no one knows how to read, where people live in terror that tomorrow they will be eaten by ogres and never travel out of sight of home. It feels like a big ren fest much of the time.
BG bears the onerous burden of making sense. Katanas don't suit it. But then, neither do kensai or monks. Who would train them? Candle keep has visitors yes, but last time you had an architect over did you learn to design buildings? At the cost of entrance to Candle Keep you can bet few people ever came twice. It only really makes sense to have the basic classes from the original BG minus druids and rangers.
When you take into account that the developers decided to keep these classes despite credibility you have to let there be silly weapons, because in the end it is about game play being fun. BG does a pretty good job of balancing game play and story so that we all fell in love. We probably should all leave it that way.
http://www.waterdeepmud.com/img_wd/map_planet_toril_2007.jpg
If your preconceptions of what a fantasy world "should" look can't accommodate this, that's on you, not the game.
And it just so happens that, while these day the Forgotten Realms can be considered a 'generic' setting in many ways, it still isn't the 'standard fantasy setting' that focuses almost solely on 'european' and 'holywood european' cultures with elves, magic and dwarves thrown into the mix.
So the problem is that some are simply ignorant about the setting.
Scimitars make sense. Calimshan isn't far away really when compared to kara-tur. The far east is months away and the swords are hard to make. Not a viable trade. I know FR. I have been reading it for a long time. One of its weaknesses is that every writer wants to make an exceptional character and exceptional circumstances. That means bringing in crap like unlikely weapons. They should just write good credible stuff that is great. Faerun is cool enough without adding a new exception (a good drow for instance) to every adventure. This is why George RR Martin is so revolutionary: He has added nothing new or extraordinary except his skill as a writer.
As for the "It's fantasy crowd." you obviously don't get the Twain quote. There is a reason that Minsc doesn't pull a pink bunny death ray out and blast Fiirkraag with it when the party is getting whacked: It is that it would be unbelievable and therefore stupid. (The big metal unit is a joke, not an attempt at a serious weapon so it can't be compared to katanas. Also it is not in BG1.) Disbelief can only be suspended so far. BG is a podunk place. Amn sees them as hicks. They are a stop on a trade route that is only used when the sea is too dangerous. It isn't even a nation, just a city state in an untamed region of the world. Katanas are not believable there. Period. There might be one in the city. Maybe two. Not enough to support a proficiency. It would be like getting good at iceskating in equador.
I've always interpreted that quote as a jab at people whose suspension of disbelief is too easily ruined by things like the presence of katana in worlds that have katana in them.
I mean, I don't doubt your word, but a quick google search brought me to http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Katana#cite_note-RotDr.7CTHG-p51-1, where one can read:
' Katanas originate from the island kingdom of Wa in the far-eastern realm of Kara-Tur. Their design has trickled slowly west into Faerûn so that now, certain Faerûnian master-craftsmen have been able to forge their own blades, though they are by no means any less exotic. The katana is known as the finest sword ever made to the peoples of the Western Heartlands. '
With a specific mention of the region where Baldur's Gate itself is located, I'm lead to believe that while rare, katanas are not out of place. Maybe Katanas should be as rare as a magical weapon should be (though magical items themselves seem more common than they should be).
You can't justify that the Sword Coast region of the GAME (not the canon D&D lore) isn't medieval Europe, just because there are cultural elements. The Middle Ages WAS A TIME of cultural diversity, but it was still Europe.
Where does it go from there? I can't just say to myself when I play "I'm in a fantasy world encompassing periods of time and place which coexist in a single form."
It's easier for me to say "So you've got Medieval Britain, that's the Sword Coast. You've got Amn, which is the Middle Eastern part of Asian. Then Kara-Tur is the oriental part of Asia."
Now isn't that 100000x easier than saying "Well you've got castles and caucasian guys with katanas and Asian guys with pianos and blah blah blah."
But to get a grip exactly on WHERE WE ARE, I need to be specific, if you people are happy to posssess no grip on reality when you play games, then I do not understand.
If the game is any good, neither mechanics nor story will contradict themselves or each other within the narrative itself. For those of us initiated in FR lore, 'narrative' stands for 'the entire canon of the Realms', for those who aren't, that means the games themselves exclusively.
The reason armour such as plate is available when it historically is not in the 12thc, is because they have to give you armours of superior protection. No point in having a maille shirt with 6 AC and one with -3 AC.
Katanas should be sold in Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate only, because production of katanas in small village shops is not only inaccurate in historical context, but inaccurate in that katanas come from Kara-Tur and the Sword Coast is a hell of a long way away from it.
But in order to support players who choose it as their proficiency, katanas have to be sold everywhere. That's reasonable, but it is not accurate. Not even in a fantasy game.
I wouldn't even put it past Winthrop to have a katana. Perhaps he just happens to have one that was sold to him by a traveler, perhaps even Sarevok. Firebead and Gorion were adventurers, if I recall, maybe one of them had a katana and sold it to Winthrop back in the day.
The great thing about fantasy games is that you can explain pretty much anything.
' Katanas originate from the island kingdom of Wa in the far-eastern realm of Kara-Tur. Their design has trickled slowly west into Faerûn so that now, certain Faerûnian master-craftsmen have been able to forge their own blades, though they are by no means any less exotic. The katana is known as the finest sword ever made to the peoples of the Western Heartlands. '
- Forgotten Realms wiki
Given that Taerom is supposed to be a master craftsman, I don't see why not.