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Remove the save vs spell required for Know Alignment

elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,047
edited March 2014 in Feature Requests
For whatever reason Know Alignment was originally given the requirement of having the target avoid a save vs spell against it (at -2 mind you but still). I'm sure there are very good PnP reasons for this but in the world of BG this takes a spell that had already pretty limited usability and kicks it thoroughly in the crotch.

Detect Evil, a lower level spell than Know Alignment, doesn't require a save vs spell. Know Alignment however does. Due to this I think that the save vs spell requirement for Know Alignment should be removed.

BlackravenAstroBryGuybbearCrevsDaaklolienJuliusBorisovSionIVsimichItomon[Deleted User]Maxxximus

Comments

  • SaphironSaphiron Member Posts: 9
    Agreed, used it once and it failed, never used it again.

  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    Know Alignment has the additional feature of telling whether the target is "Good", while Detect Evil can only say "Evil". Lol, I agree wholeheartedly.

    It also should describe the nine actual alignment too.

    elminsterCrevsDaakBlackraven
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,152
    edited March 2014
    Just to make EVERYONE glow in colors?... SUPPORTED!!! I love this!
    Ps: you can just copy the spell and create an innate from it, make it bypass MR and all the other resistances and give yourself 100 of them, all with NI :P
    Edit: added colors to make my post even more silly :)

    elminsterPibaro
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,047
    edited March 2014
    Honestly I don't expect it to be made an AoE spell, though obviously that would be ideal. But the saving throw just makes it a joke.

    In fact I'm just going to come right out and guess that its the only divination spell in the entire game that requires a saving throw. I mean none of the illusion removal spells do, detect evil doesn't, farsight doesn't, clairvoyance wouldn't.

    Its like. You want to remove Mislead or Invisibility and leave that mage with one less defence? No problem. No saving throw needed.

    You want to know if that mage is good, neutral, or evil? Woh, woh, woh slow down there buddy. Thats some powerful knowledge :p

    Post edited by elminster on
    BlackravenGoturallolienSionIV
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,287
    elminster said:

    Honestly I don't expect it to be made an AoE spell, though obviously that would be ideal. But the saving throw just makes it a joke.

    In fact I'm just going to come right out and guess that its the only divination spell in the entire game that requires a saving throw. I mean none of the illusion removal spells do, detect evil doesn't, farsight doesn't, clairvoyance wouldn't.

    Its like. You want to remove Mislead or Invisibility and leave that mage with one less defence? No problem. No saving throw needed.

    You want to know if that mage is good, neutral, or evil? Woh, woh, woh slow down there buddy. Thats some powerful knowledge :p

    That's a very funny way of further substantiating a valid point. Had me lol.

    elminsterGotural
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,047
    edited May 2014
    Hey does anyone with Near Infinity or who is willing to play test want to check something for me? I looked in Near Infinity myself and in both games mechanically the wizard spell for Know Alignment (SPWI208.spl) doesn't require a saving throw. I looked over my override folder to see if this was a result of a change I had made, and it doesn't appear to be that way, but if someone could confirm this (or prove me incorrect) I would appreciate it.

    I'm talking mechanically so you'll have to actually cast it (or check in near infinity). The description still says that it requires it however.

    CrevsDaak
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,913
    @elminster It has always been that way. The wizard version has never required a saving throw (not even in vBG1) while the priest version always has. Kinda dumb if you ask me.

    elminsterCrevsDaak
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,047
    Tresset said:

    @elminster It has always been that way. The wizard version has never required a saving throw (not even in vBG1) while the priest version always has. Kinda dumb if you ask me.

    Thanks for confirming. I wanted to make sure I wasn't seeing things :)

  • AendaeronBluescaleAendaeronBluescale Member Posts: 335
    edited May 2014
    This should do. This simple mod ignores spell resistance (Effect declared non-magical) and doesn't allow a saving throw. Put it into your override.

    WARNING: This is the file from BG2:EE, I cannot guarantee it to work inside BG1:EE


    Actually, it's more complex than I thought, but worthy of modding later.
    Maybe I'll do a BG1 mod for Know Alignment when I'm done with my Dragon Shape mod.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,047
    edited May 2014
    You can't just change the spells "detect alignment" effects to be "bypass resistance" and change the save to "select none"?

    (in Near Infinity)

  • AendaeronBluescaleAendaeronBluescale Member Posts: 335
    elminster said:

    You can't just change the spells "detect alignment" effects to be "bypass resistance" and change the save to "select none"?

    (in Near Infinity)

    I could, but there are multiple instances of that spell. I'll take care of it when I finish my mod I am currently working on :)

  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,989
    Why would you change this spell? It does nothing and it fails in doing that!!!
    Definitely the ultimate spell!!!!! It's perfect as it is now!

    CrevsDaak
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,047
    If anyone is interested I've attached tweaks for both the priest and mage spell. So now they require no save and bypass magic resistance. I'll be including these changes into the next version of my micro tweaks pack.

    JuliusBorisovCrevsDaakAendaeronBluescaleMaxxximus
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,683
    Know alignment is a bit useless in BG, even in frist play it doesn't help much. Anyway, if gonna take off the save, take the magic resistance check also.

    For me, some additional quests/issues/events could be added with direct use of this spell to integrate it better on the gameplay.

    CaloNord
  • CaloNordCaloNord Member Posts: 1,807
    I LOVE the idea of a quest here or there where it could be useful to actually have a spell like known alignment! I love that they put them in there but at the moment, what the hell good are they?!

  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 2,924
    CaloNord said:

    I LOVE the idea of a quest here or there where it could be useful to actually have a spell like known alignment! I love that they put them in there but at the moment, what the hell good are they?!

    One of the paladin stronghold quests in BG2 requires you to use either Know Alignment or Detect Evil on a certain person. But that's it, afaik.

  • CaloNordCaloNord Member Posts: 1,807
    I remember that quest. I think I just killed everyone the first time and failed horribly. I wasn't very patient back then. One or two more where it could at least be useful would be awesome! Even if it gave you a few extra dialogue options, knowing the alignment and where the NPC was going sort of thing?

  • ItomonItomon Member Posts: 182
    kamuizin said:

    Know alignment is a bit useless in BG, even in frist play it doesn't help much. Anyway, if gonna take off the save, take the magic resistance check also.

    For me, some additional quests/issues/events could be added with direct use of this spell to integrate it better on the gameplay.

    i used your comment above and tried this http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/32401/mod-request-questmix-bg1

    elminsterkamuizin
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,683
    Very nice move :)! While i don't agree with some of the changes, i surelly agree and largely support your initiative. Well done @Itomon!

    elminsterItomon
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