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Let's Talk About Constitution

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  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited April 2014
    karnor00 said:

    SionIV said:

    karnor00 said:

    SionIV said:

    So getting the tome at level 1 will not be any different from getting it at level 10.

    Well, except that if you get the bonus at level 1 then you will have it for all 10 levels. If you only get the bonus at level 10, then you've had to struggle through the previous 9 levels with less hitpoints (which is all of BG1 and a little bit of BG2).

    Same outcome at the end, but a rather different journey to get there.

    The bonus will at the most be 1HP/Level. So if you're struggling it's not because of that. Your character will not die a lot more on level 6 because s/he has 6 HP less.
    That argument doesn't make much sense. Having 6hp more absolutely means you will die less. If it didn't then all players would reduce their constitution to 3 in the knowledge that they won't die any more often...

    However, the significance of those hitpoints will very much depend on the character in question. For a level 6 fighter with 18 con and max hp on level up, going from 84 to 90 hitpoints isn't going to be hugely significant.

    For a mage with 12 con and average hp on level up, going from 15 to 21 hitpoints is a very significant increase.
    What i was trying to say is that 6 HP won't make the difference if you die or not, it'll be a player error and not a lack of constitution.

    60HP or 66HP those 6 extra health won't make a difference, if you die it's because you did an error, not because you were lacking HP. I'll agree with you when we talk about +2 CON (2HP/Level) but +1 CON (1HP/Level) won't really have that big of an effect.

    10HP or 11HP
    20HP or 22HP
    70HP or 77HP
    90HP or 99HP

    At the most we're talking about 9 health on level 9. It really comes down to a player error if you die when we're talking about 1HP/Level.

    And no 84HP to 90HP is not significant and will never be, it's a minor boost. It's like saying you can't play without the helm of Balduran. 70 to 90 is Significant, 84 to 90 isn't.

    A mage would go from 24 to 30 HP. You shouldn't be in combat with a mage nor be taking damage, those 6 HP will save you from one more arrow, but when you get that low health you should have taken a potion or pulled back to start with.

    Throw in a Familiar and it's 32 - 38. It really isn't that much.

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251

    @jackjack What I said is Rangers don't equal ranged combat.

    In fact, compounding my error, I wholeheartedly agree with you here - with two free pips in TWS (all the pips you need, IMO), Rangers are eventually best suited for melee combat by the time you start SoA, wherein the effectiveness of ranged weapons begin to degrade. I do, however, feel that this actually makes Constitution more important for them, particularly when taking into account their armor restrictions and the fact that they get warrior level HP bonuses past 16 CON.

    JuliusBorisovbooinyoureyes
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited April 2014
    Rest often, stay off the alcohol, and these penalties will rarely come into play, if at all. If you do get fatigued, just rest before moving on.

    There is an easy and legitimate way to mitigate the drawbacks. If the penalties do come into play, it is a self-inflicted injury more often than not.

    BlackravenJuliusBorisov
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,653
    I'll just add a little to the discussion on one's mind providing strength. I used to get colds a lot. I wasn't a particularly sickly child, but I did get a lot of colds. In recent years I've begun (mostly as a test) saying that "I am NOT getting sick", whenever I feel a cold coming on. And surprisingly, it's worked. I feel it's almost a matter of confidence and optimism showing their merits. Even when I do get colds, I simply say "well I'll be better in no time." And I find I recover more quickly than I used to. It could of course be that I am far more physically fit than I was as a child, but I don't believe that's all of it.

    Another thing I'd like to say on the same subject is that people often refer to those situations where someone has a deadly disease, but they seem to just give in to it as them "giving up". As if in some way, if the diseased person chooses, they can "fight it". Not really trying to prove anything with this little addition, just making a point that even those who don't believe in "mental medicine" will refer to it occasionally. Personally, I believe there is too much faith placed in it by some, and not enough by others.

    BlackravenJuliusBorisovjackjack
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415
    edited April 2014
    jacobtan said:

    Rest often, stay off the alcohol, and these penalties will rarely come into play, if at all. If you do get fatigued, just rest before moving on.

    There is an easy and legitimate way to mitigate the drawbacks. If the penalties do come into play, it is a self-inflicted injury more often than not.

    From a role-playing perspective, there are times when resting makes little sense. I've never liked the whole,
    "Hmmm, the big boss is right behind this door. We're tired and almost out of spells, so let's set up camp. That way we can recuperate and can re-prepare our spells before the fight. I'm sure he won't realize we've slaughtered all his minions and are sleeping right outside his lair."

    If my players tried that when I was DM, the PCs would wake up to a nasty surprise, if they woke up at all.

    In cases like that, not having a Con so low that you get fatigued 4 hours before everyone else is useful.

    jackjackBlackravenJuliusBorisov
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655

    From a role-playing perspective, there are times when resting makes little sense. I've never liked the whole,
    "Hmmm, the big boss is right behind this door. We're tired and almost out of spells, so let's set up camp. That way we can recuperate and can re-prepare our spells before the fight. I'm sure he won't realize we've slaughtered all his minions and are sleeping right outside his lair."

    If my players tried that when I was DM, the PCs would wake up to a nasty surprise, if they woke up at all.

    In cases like that, not having a Con so low that you get fatigued 4 hours before everyone else is useful.

    1. Rest somewhere safe. Leave the map area if you have to. This is common even from an RP perspective. Nobody says you must rest outside the big boss' lair unless the PCs are that clueless.

    2. You are not the DM, though you are free to edit the area files to prevent resting or spawn 100 demons on resting. I will pass ;)

    3. Again, this "usefulness" is conditional (applying only when you have adventured long enough after the last rest so that the penalty kicks in) and dependent on yet another condition (you do not rest regularly).

    From my experience with Xan, fatigue was never an issue. If the penalty does kick in, I quickly duck into an inn, leave for the nearest safe map, or just wade into combat with him behind the front liners. If a player is so hard up about the -1 fatigue penalty, then boost the Con from 7 to 8. Anything more is

    image

    JuliusBorisov
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,518
    Jimstrom said:

    Really love these threads, and your RP explanations to why the NPC's have their stats, however, i feel that Constitution shouls somewhat mirror strength, since it is a physical attribute. the amazonian Shar-teel is way to paltry with that huge strength score, i would at least buff her up to 14 like kivan. also is'nt Yeslick kind of weak compared to the other dwarves?

    I've always felt that con was a largely innate trait, and therefore, does not necessarily have any direct correlation with str or dext, which can both be trained to an extent.

    For example, I've known a number of women who weren't particularly strong or athletic, but had very healthy immune systems - they would fit the same mold as Dynaheir or Edwin. Likewise, some athletes are more injury-prone than others, irrespective of how well each of them play when they're actually on the field.



    To me DEX > CON > STR for warriors and for mages.

    Same for me.

  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,518
    Here's an example of a guy with high str vs. a girl with higher con and dext.



    Notice that the guy's higher str gives him some success early on, but his lower dext/con causes him to fatigue quicker and take more blows as the match goes on, before ultimately folding like a lawn chair.

    "Fatigue makes cowards of us all" - the great Vince Lombardi.

    jackjack
  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 936
    Roleplay-wise, I enjoy making characters who can endure all - treks through the wilderness, wearing plate armor on a hot day, surviving in hellish environments (or Hell itself), performing feats of endurance, etc. I also enjoy a strong defense, and Constitution is a part of that along with Dex. While I admit Dex is probably the better stat, I can't seem to break myself of capping out my HP/level bonus with Con.

    In real life, I would have a more complex system for determining my high Con score. I am very resilient to disease and to medicine (and by extension, alcohol and drugs), and I can walk 20 miles in a day with no problem greater than possible blisters if my shoes and socks aren't well-suited to the task. However, my "burst" fatigue is low to average, I can't maintain running speed (and forget a sprint) for any great length of time. I can hold my breath slightly longer than the "average" but not anything impressive really. D&D, of course, does a lot of abstraction (some of your HP pool represents fatigue compounded with cosmetic injuries at higher levels - you don't literally take 10 greatsword blows to the face).

    Anyhow, I don't see myself cutting Con shorter than 16 anytime in the near future. As for Veraka hitting 17 Con after the tome? In BG2, I sacrificed a point of Con in the dream sequences to further the main storyline. That point didn't go to waste forever.

    Elrandirjackjack
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    Personally, I think constitution should primarily relate to the immune system and resistance to illness. It would make more sense for strength to determine capacity to take physical punishment.

    Leon
  • dreambleddreambled Member Posts: 48
    @SharGuidesMyHand, the only thing you have to keep in mind is this is against people who are in their own weight class, something that isn't granted in an adventuring group. So if you were to pit those fighters against each other, those bottom three fighters might be seeing stars, especially against people like Roy Jones Jr., a knockout artist who had the DEX to go with his STR in his prime.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    In regards to boxing, Greeks not only didnt use weight classes, they also used very damaging wraps (ants was the colloquial term, since they had a bite) and favoured punches to the face. If you look at many examples from their art, the boxer tended not to be as 'brawny' as a wrestler, but favoured a more burly core. Such fighters apparently could absorb body shots well enough that they werent very effective as a strategy. The 'typical' fighter kept their dominant arm pulled back for a massive punch, while using their weaker hand mostly to maintain distance, much less for punching, since few people could knock anyone out with their weaker arm. You couldnt box this way without a high cons score. But you didnt need very strong arms either.

    Pankratiasts it contrast tended to be smaller looking, as they had many more options to use in a match, while wrestlers required more brute strength and needed stronger arms and legs. Boxers used mostly the core for,power, not unlike now, but modern boxers can get by with much less durability, due to more shorter rounds and emphasis on cardio training.

    There were athletes that competed in more than one event, but the organizers of the various games were willing to rearrange the events if an athlete was going to box and do anything else... boxing was the most brutal event, despite pankration being 'no holds barred', so it was considered unfair to make a competitor compete in anything after boxing; My point, boxing requires more constitution than strength, historically and today.

  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    If I could remake dnd on my own I'd split con into two different stats.
    One would be durability, measuring out physical toughness, pain tolerence(so hit points), fatigue, that's sort of thing. The other stat would be constitution, measure your health, resistance to disease and poison, ect. These are correlated, but I think they warrant separate stats. (I'd also split dex and bring comeliness back, but that's another story)

    Take me, for example. I'm 120lbs(55kilos, underwight for a 15 year old male), sick noticeable more than my peers, slightly asthmatic, usually anemic, and I detest exercise. So low con, you say.
    But I have a high pain tolerance; I can deal with stuff most people really wouldn't appreciate, I can run a mile in 6 minutes(decent, to exceptional, but I don't train, period), and I was just in Colorado where I backpacked over 20 miles in two days, climbing a class 2+ fourteener along the way, and then another one a few days later. So high con.

    See what I mean?

    Elrandir
  • LeonLeon Member Posts: 83

    Here's an example of a guy with high str vs. a girl with higher con and dext.



    Notice that the guy's higher str gives him some success early on, but his lower dext/con causes him to fatigue quicker and take more blows as the match goes on, before ultimately folding like a lawn chair.

    "Fatigue makes cowards of us all" - the great Vince Lombardi.

    As an ameteur Thai boxer, you can see he lacks simple defence. By the looks and correct me if i am wrong- she is much more experienced then him. And thats the edge.
    I for example weight 90+ but unlike this fat guy i have 11% bf. As a "heavy guy" i can say you lose dexterity as you gain weight- even muscle weight. But if you continue to train even little for endurance and speed- and continue strength trainings (bodybuilding,armwrestle,powerlifting,strongman) you gain POWER(Speed+Strength).
    That guy had "strength" thanks to his 30% body fat. Muhammad Ali weighted 7 kg more then this fat ass,with 20% bf less - SO its does matter where STRENGTH comes from: baby doghnut fat or hard-long gained muscle.
    However this guy has certain places which are more protected by fat lair then others, while i have 120 wide back- which is good defence , my ribs are more vulnerable then his due to lower bf.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Strength training for power done right shouldnt slow you down unless you are also 'bulking', ie gaining fat deliberately. Most atheletes do use bulking up, but most atheletes competing in weight categorized sports cut quite hard before weighing in, even heavy weights, because fat definately slows you down. The danger for boxers though imho, especially kick boxers, is that extra weight tends to build heavy, slow leg muscles. This might be what youre talking about actually... you have to train pretty hard to offset this, and not do much walking while heavy. This is one reason you dont see many really big kickboxers.

    In personal experience, I would say if you start getting to far from your reccommended weight range, you WILL start having performance issues if you arent training a ton. At 195 (I dropped down from 400lbs just then, so terrible upper body strength), I could do 200 push ups every day, 15 chin ups etc. I've bulked significantly over 3 or 4 years, now I am around 250. Chin ups are incredibly hard, pushups are brutal, etc. I can lift more weight, but its very hard to maintain the same strength to weight ratio. I was pretty crazy skinny at 195 though, and was ~180 twice, VERY skinny then. The problem of course at those weights, I have lots of bonemass, lol. I know it sounds bs. I'm 6'3, and definately fall under the 'heavy frame', so 180 is about the least I should ever weigh. That said, I am at my best athleticly (such as it is) at 210 to 220. Dont know what my fat range is there, I am hard to estimate. It was incredibly low at times, and very high at others. I have a pigeon chest though, so I pretty much have 0 athletic potential.

    As for protection, I didnt mean that those greek boxers were fat, they had big torsos, ie like a powerlifter. Theh probably could punch as hard as a heavy weight now, so if you arent adequetly protected by overdeveloped stomach muscle, a gut shot would shut down your liver really quick.

    Foremen would have KOd that sucker with one punch though. Ali was more versatile, and had a knack for finding ways to win, ie vs Foreman, who could certainly out punch him.

    Leon
  • LeonLeon Member Posts: 83
    yeah totally agree. I usually rise to 15% bf max but have great water retention and drink 5-8 liters per day(creatine). Althougth people think big and heavy guys must be slower- part of this is true but they forget that muscles can help everything from protection,intimidiating factor(people say its scary to box me),and eventually power if you build you speed enough.
    But fat.. nothing. Its very unlikely someone would have big fatty S while at the same time beings fast and endurance-wise better.
    Unlike what you said i have pretty weak legs- 130kg*4 squats or 220*8 leg presses.. my Real power comes from my back. Can do 30 pullups weighting 90 kg now. I can take punches to my back like nothing because i have thick layer of muscle, where my legs are pretty athletic but lack muscle or even fat mass(less defence,flexibility,power).
    Just read Ali "the soul of the butterfly" - more then physical you see the mental struggle he went through to be what he become against all odds. It doesnt matter he was muslim,doped and broke the rules in every turn- what matters is how he set example by his words and actions. Def. Chaotic good character :)

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